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-   -   Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator? (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=60886)

Mike Keener 01-27-2016 02:30 PM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Looks to me some racers are making a case for taking the rules backwards and others are for moving forward toward overall engine safety. The point we can all agree on is everybody understands and accepts the problem but have differing viewpoints on how to correct them.

Maybe it's just me but my belief is once you start down a path you must be prepared to reach the end as long as the overall spirit of the rules are never compromised. Opening the duration rule, no limit on valve spring pressures, roller rockers, wild valve jobs, aftermarket oil pans, etc have been good things, and in my opinion, have keep Stock Eliminator from getting rather boring. Does anyone really want to see and A/S car slow down a half second or more?

Another issue is Tear Down. Does anyone really believe the tech department wants to increase the time it takes to check camshaft duration, valve spring pressures, etc? I would doubt that very seriously.

For what it's worth my 2 cents is the path forward is a far cheaper fix for the current camshaft/lifter mess and therefore rates superior to turning around and heading backwards with the rules. Retreating with the rules would be far more expensive not to mention it would be a waste of valuable time for us- as well as the tech officials.

Billy Nees 01-27-2016 03:50 PM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Keener (Post 493771)
Maybe it's just me but my belief is once you start down a path you must be prepared to reach the end as long as the overall spirit of the rules are never compromised.
Mike, I'm sorry to have to say this but that is the biggest line of crap that I've ever read on this web site! The over-all spirit of the rules? That got tossed aside with the original valve spring rule!
Please humor me for just one minute and tell me just what it is that you think is left in your combo that you think is remotely "Stock" at this point! I know that I'm going to piss off a few real good friends here but the 396/375 combo is the LEAST "Stock" combo out there. You've gotten everything that you've needed over the years to make it faster and more dependable(and let's not forget the "easier to get parts for and less expensive" B.S.) and you just keep on wanting more!
It seems to me that the issue here is either live with the rules that we've got(or at least the "spirit") and break stuff to go fast or back it down a bit and make it live.
OR just go the heck back to Pro Stock or Top Stock!

Dan Fahey 01-27-2016 04:59 PM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvt Parts (Post 493767)
I really don't see what all the crying is about. It seems that the rules are doing what they are supposed to do... limit the cost and performance of a Stocker. The guys who are hurting parts are pushing the components beyond their limits.

Choices:

1. Back off on the cam/lifter issue and find more ET somewhere else.

2. Do whatever it takes to solve the problem. Exotic materials, different lubrication, different cam combination. If you can fix the problem, you'll have something no one has. And we all know that the cream rises to the top.

I do believe however, that valve train components should be consistent across the board. Allowing the older cars to run the same cam/lifter as the new cars would level the playing field.
Well that is the next step.
More addiction creep away from concept of Stock.
Eventually create new reliability issues.
Hence the moose call of SSer opinions...."move to SS then"

Before the Spring/Cam rule Stockers could not run with SS.
Stockers now run well under the SS index.

Think time to take a sensible step to go forward.
What is the ROI here...!!

Just
My Two Tenths err cents !

D

MR DERBY CITY 01-27-2016 06:18 PM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Keener (Post 493771)
Looks to me some racers are making a case for taking the rules backwards and others are for moving forward toward overall engine safety. The point we can all agree on is everybody understands and accepts the problem but have differing viewpoints on how to correct them.

Maybe it's just me but my belief is once you start down a path you must be prepared to reach the end as long as the overall spirit of the rules are never compromised. Opening the duration rule, no limit on valve spring pressures, roller rockers, wild valve jobs, aftermarket oil pans, etc have been good things, and in my opinion, have keep Stock Eliminator from getting rather boring. Does anyone really want to see and A/S car slow down a half second or more?

Another issue is Tear Down. Does anyone really believe the tech department wants to increase the time it takes to check camshaft duration, valve spring pressures, etc? I would doubt that very seriously.

For what it's worth my 2 cents is the path forward is a far cheaper fix for the current camshaft/lifter mess and therefore rates superior to turning around and heading backwards with the rules. Retreating with the rules would be far more expensive not to mention it would be a waste of valuable time for us- as well as the tech officials.
You guys are killing me....You all knew the RULES when you signed up for STOCK Eliminator. Put your AGENDAS aside and Please REFRAIN from changing the RULES. Geez. ,!! PS...I did not want or need ceramic lifters, excessive valve spring pressure , roller rockers , or any other parts that don't belong n STOCK. Eliminator

moparpilot 01-27-2016 07:22 PM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR DERBY CITY (Post 493785)
You guys are killing me....You all knew the RULES when you signed up for STOCK Eliminator. Put your AGENDAS aside and Please REFRAIN from changing the RULES. Geez. ,!! PS...I did not want or need ceramic lifters, excessive valve spring pressure , roller rockers , or any other parts that don't belong n STOCK. Eliminator
amen to that and it's not like roller lifters don't break had a few of them break wasn't pretty

Dan Fahey 01-27-2016 11:56 PM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR DERBY CITY (Post 493785)
You guys are killing me....You all knew the RULES when you signed up for STOCK Eliminator. Put your AGENDAS aside and Please REFRAIN from changing the RULES. Geez. ,!! PS...I did not want or need ceramic lifters, excessive valve spring pressure , roller rockers , or any other parts that don't belong n STOCK. Eliminator
Do not dismiss the conversations.
It is a good one with different POV with mutual consensus.
As for the knowing the Rules, they change often.
Yeah the trick is to moderate Spring pressure and still go fast.
Figure putting a little Stock back into Stock is a good idea.
In the 70s a M/SA car ran 13.30's, 80s 12.50 and today 11.80.

Good night all
D

Bernie Cunningham 01-28-2016 12:48 AM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Cunningham (Post 492984)
Dang, Nascar CUP cars, the big boys, have just recently switched to roller cams and lifters, imagine the beatings that the old flat tappet set up took and yet it stayed together for decades.

Yeah, they also dropped the max RPM as well but before that you had an engine running non stop for hours at WOT at around 9K+ RPM. Very impressive indeed.
I would like to bring this back up as it's got to be relevant.
Does anybody know what the, before roller, spring pressures were on a Nascar CUP car?

Bill Diehl 01-28-2016 02:11 AM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Cunningham (Post 493810)
I would like to bring this back up as it's got to be relevant.
Does anybody know what the, before roller, spring pressures were on a Nascar CUP car?
Its irrelevant....they have 6 and 7mm valve stems in the 60 to 70 gram range with a spintron designed valve train with the proper geometry, they use less spring pressure than you would think.

there is a thought ..lower the pressure so you can spend thousands of dollars on spintron testing.......what a concept:eek:

Bill Diehl 01-28-2016 02:24 AM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fahey (Post 493808)
Do not dismiss the conversations.
It is a good one with different POV with mutual consensus.
As for the knowing the Rules, they change often.
Yeah the trick is to moderate Spring pressure and still go fast.
Figure putting a little Stock back into Stock is a good idea.
In the 70s a M/SA car ran 13.30's, 80s 12.50 and today 11.80.

Good night all
D
and pro stock in the 70's ran in the 8's, 80s the 7's and today 6.50's now they have a rev limit, wait till you see the spring bill the teams will spend for this year...I don't think its possible to turn back the hands of time

Dan Fahey 01-28-2016 03:44 AM
Re: Roller Cams in Stock Eliminator?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Diehl (Post 493816)
and pro stock in the 70's ran in the 8's, 80s the 7's and today 6.50's now they have a rev limit, wait till you see the spring bill the teams will spend for this year...I don't think its possible to turn back the hands of time
Well ProStock and NASCAR are limiting RPM.
Top Fuel and FC are running 1000ft.
Pure Stock is a Solution too!
They are work-arounds.


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