Lower Class Imput
 

25+ years ago I raced between C/SA thru F/SA. I'm currently running a 10.80 bracket car. I've talked to a few racers that run T, U, V/SA. They are not happy about always being run down by higher class cars and usually only get to go a round or two. I have a combo that needs to be put together. Am I going to waste time and $? There is a name that I've seen of a guy( Billy Ness) that runs a lower class in Stock and Comp. Any feedback is greatly appreciated

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

Lil' Tommy Mattingly running an O/SA was Div. 3 champ 2006. He was probably chased more than anyone I know. Didn't seem to effect him.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

Billy Nees runs in U & V/SA and never in Comp--------thirty years ago (or so) I told him he was wasting his time in the lower classes and since then he has gone more rounds and won more races than me ! ! I guess my point is that it doesn't matter if you are in the lower classes or the upper ones--each has their own advantage......................And if you talk to Billy he'll tell you I'm still eating crow but he has some very interesting stories to tell about our racing together over the years .

Re: Lower Class Input
 

I have no personal experience with this, but I heard something that might be of interest to you.

A well-known and highly-respected race team made up of some brothers, who shall remain nameless here, who had had a lot of success running Stock Eliminator with "fast" class cars (A/SA through G/SA) tried racing with a well-setup, lower classed car as an experiment. I am not sure of the class, but I believe it to have been a high 13-second car, or in that general neighborhood.

Their final analysis was, it was REALLY hard to dial the car because atmospheric changes and variable winds made the car virtually unpredictable. Temperature and barometric pressure changes that might affect their B or C-class Stockers a tenth would affect the slower car as much as three tenths (or more).

Wheelspin was never a problem; maintenance was minimal, and breakage was non-existent, but they couldn't go rounds in a handicap situation because of inconsistencies caused by the aforementioned factors... so, they called it a non-workable situation, and got rid of it.

I have heard of racers who CAN deal with this problem (Billy Nees is a wel-known one), and obviously, people like him have a handle on the consitency problem that these guys I mentioned couldn't seem to master. But, I can guess, it won't be easy.

You pays your money, and you takes your choice... LOL! Good luck!!!

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

Go ahead and spend the money on a slow car. I`ve done pretty well in the past with a car that could only run a tenth under,including winning a Division Championship. Just remember,pay much closer to the smaller details than you would with a quicker car. Good luck,and see you in the "Winner`s Circle"! "The Hawk"

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The toughest opponent that I have faced since "adopting" my car is the owner of the ugly mug in the mirror every morning!! I've been the victim of my own errors more often than not. Manage the "YOU" factor to the best of your ability and your results will reflect the effort.

Good Luck!!!....a healthy dose of that never hurts either.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

I have run a V/SA car from 1999 to 2007 ....1/8th mile I would run anybody ...1/4 mile the thing would run # one round then go one way or the other the next! Milan 05 frist round 15.257 on a 15.26 I win 2nd round 15.27 on a 15.27 3rd round 15.28 on a 15.28 4th round 15.23 on a 15.28 ????have NO idea! Edgewater same year 1st round 15.26 on a 15.26 4th round i get a by 15.44 on a 15.40 5th round 15.37 on a 15.40??? & I could go on & on!!! I now have a P/SA that runs 12's & seems to be better ...we'll see ;)

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I can tell you from running a slow car you really have to have the tune up on point and pay attention to the details a lot. You CAN NOT race a slow car without a weather station. Each combo will react to air differently. Once you can figure out what factors make the most difference and how to dial correctly for the air, you can win a lot of rounds in a slow car.

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If you are going to race a lower classed stocker then you had better get it in your head right from the start that you are going to work at it. The tuneup has to be right for the conditions. You aren't going to just show up and race every day. You MUST have a weather station that you can trust. You WILL start looking at every flag on the grounds to get a feel for the wind (andf a wind gauge too). You have to heat them up and cool them down EXACTLY the same for each run. My best friends have watched me over the years and just laughed their tails off at what it takes to make them fairly consistant. They have tried to race my cars "their way" and had no successat all. If you want a "Bracket Stocker" then you had better build an A,B,C, car. That being said, a good lower classed car can win on a consistant track.

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Billy is dead on with the slow combination as normal. I can say that everything he said is right on. It took me 2 years to really figure out our combination and what makes it run the best. Details, details, details...

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Depends on how you define SLOW CAR... All the weather, wind etc is accentuated with a low powered big car. ANY car I ever had with a small carb was a problem. I had a 283 chevy II before gauges and it was rediculous. Cloud cover made it run faster to say nothing of a temp drop in the evening.. I had a 350 chevy wagon with a glide that was very consistent. A big inch motor with plenty of carb and compression seems to be the least variable. This is even track to track.
Should have been running when you dialed your car by 4:00 on day of eliminations and then raced at midnight. NO CHANGING THE DIAL......a lot of brake lights and sliding in the lights......

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Hey old man, you forgot to mention the use of an open face helmet.It's hard to crank your head 180 degrees with a full face.After 9 years with my car I have it down fairly well,but it still throws you a curve when you least expect it,like the first run of the day.
You going to Atco old man?When will we be blessed with the presence of the Don?

Ed

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

If it were my money, I would not build a lower class car.

The combination I've run mostly is a 86 model C-10 pick-up wiht a 4.3L v-6. No matter what I/we tried, the truck was very inconsistent. If somebody farted in the stands, it would pick-up a tenth. It was VERY affected by the wind. And this combination has a big carb (800 Q-jet), decent cam (0.430 lift), and 10.5:1 compression, but were only making high 200 to low 300 hp range due to the lack of displacement.

We've used the same techniches for running a A/B/C classed car, and it was very consistent provided the track was ok.

On the plus side of racing the truck, it's easy to see out the rear window. I can't think of any other vehicle that has beter visiblity for being caught.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

Chris Hill, a station wagon has alot of windows too. Problem is you can see the people in the stands as well when going slow.

House of Darts, when I initially had my car and could just barely run the index, it was deadly consistent. The faster I made it go over the years, the more inconsistent it got. Question is, should I try to go slower for the consistent aspect of things, or should I invest more money to go faster and be inconsistent.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA which way did he go, which way did he go.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

I agree with "The Hawk", you should spend the money on the lower classed car. Heck, with all of the punishment that the faster classed cars have had, the only untamed frontiers are primarily the fwd and the Q on down stocker classes. You remember the year that Scotty Richardson won the Stock World Championship in NHRA (I believe it was 1996)? I ask because The Hawk beat him in the 1st rd in Douglas, Wy. that year in his V/SA Skyhawk, so you can thank those faster classed cars he raced for the reason he won---Hawk wasn't going to let that happen without a fight, and I was in the lanes saying "GET HIM HAWK", & "RIGHT ON", afterwards!!!

I drive a DF/S stocker that has nearly $10K total invested in it (thus far), and true weather conditions affect the slower cars more than the faster cars. However, you do your stats just like with the other cars (I don't have a weather station, and I've done well enough with my Z24 to go 4rds at the 2006 Mile Hi's, the 2007 LODRS DIV. VII Tucson race (by the way I wasted a perfect run on a -.013 red eye :( , and this year at the LODRS DIV. VII Chandler, Az. (where I lost another winable race to a similar red light). Once I get my act together with driving the start & finish lines (like I did with my 17 sec. 1981 Div. V Street Eliminator winning Pontiac Ventura) I'll give these faster classed guys a run for the money---and If I can do it, "The Hawk has (and still is) doing it, plus Billy Nees has been doing it for years now (plus several others like Steve Pohill), then you certainly do it! My question for you is "HOW HUNGRY ARE YOU"???

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Wow,you guys look over your shoulder? I only use the mirrors,and seldom turn my head around. I guess I`ve just been used to doing it that way for the last 25 years. I can race against an 8 second dragster and know 95% of the time if it`s going to catch me,but what I do at the stripe is the determining factor. Learning how to win in a slow car has helped me several times over when I ended up in a dragster,I knew what was going on ahead of me with the other driver. That deal`s over,so now I`m back to just running a V6 Stocker full time,and looking forward to it! Lane

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

House of Darts, I don't think it would be a waste. As others have stated, it can be done. It all depends on what you are after and how hard you want it. Am I out there now? No. Just another armchair stock racer. But I have bracket raced a few times over the years and now have decided to put together a stocker and join in the fun. Would I like a higher classed car ( my favs are the early Camaro / Chevy II ) as my choice ? Wheels up launches? You bet ! But I am starting out in the lower classes with my 75 Starfire V6, not only because I think it would be less expensive ( if that is possible ) but because you have to start somewhere ( and I love the body style ) . Plus if you put your mind to it, I believe with time it would be just as much fun as the upper class cars. Plus by changing engine / year I could go from V/SA with the V6 to making it a 77 with a 305 and go all the way to O/SA ( figuring in the fact of going up or down to the next class ). So this gives me a lot of options. But I will be shooting for V/SA and just see how much fun everybody else is having. And thats what I believe it is about, having fun. And a few wins would be nice, :)

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Going fast sucks. With as much as it cost to do this today I want as much track time as possible. Why only take 10 seconds when you can have 15. Although the sponsor prospects may not see it this way they can have 50% MORE EXPOSURE FOR 50% LESS ADVERTISING DOLLAR WITH A SLOW CAR. As the low class Mr. Nees put it you will pay attention to detail at the track. The only race car that I've owned that paid for itself was the V car. You have to race it all the time to learn how to dial it and you have to keep books of records. Your average TAG or other bracket style weather station is useless with these cars, but there are things that work. My experience was the same as Ron's though as when the car was running.3 under the index it was deadly consistent 85% of the time and when it was .8 to1 under it was not nearly as consistent. Your worst enemy during eliminations is that guy on the starting line with that sprayer of VHT. The glue will kill your ET all the way down the track if he decides to do you a favor and spray the starting line for you. Life is good on the bottom of the pond.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

I think that this thread needed a bump for any number of reasons.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

One Name Jody Lang !!!!

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

It's taken me some time to "adjust" to owning/driving a slower car. Toward the end of 2020, things started to come around.

I will agree you have to really pay attention to the weather conditions. Pay attention to your weather station, and keep good logs. You also have to do your prep exactly the same each round. You need to learn to stage exactly the same also. Repetition! Repetition! Repetition! Lots of little things to do.

On the plus side, you are never going to spin. If the weather stays the same, you are going to be really consistent. Maintenance is minimal, just check everything as you would any car.

Top end, it's a whole different ball game judging the finish line and the on coming opponent that may be 60 mph faster then you. But, remember, they have to judge where you are at on the track also.

As far as the car, I have enjoyed running the V/SA more then anything I have ever had in the past. Looking forward to competing again in 2021.

#5458

Curt Rees

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

No doubt about Jody's skills, #1 for 2021. Another name from the same division (6) is Darrick Ellam. Although Darrick isn't as successful as Jody he has done well. Darrick's car is a Pinto Wagon W/SA. I have seen him chased by very fast cars, and win. Darrick finished #3 in Division last year and #104 in the Nation. That is out of 849 cars, not bad. Darrick has finished well other years, also.

I LOVE watching a slow car beat a fast car, tortoise and the hare comes to mind.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

If I might interject something here..Good a place as any.
If you are of the Dime Rocket, budget build, or "slow car" persuasion, and want to call around on prices for a converter, trans, carb, etc...Wait until you get your tax refund, stimulus check, win the lottery, cash out your IRA, or sell the old lady to the highest bidder, first.
You can't expect prices to hold firm for 4, 7, or 13 years.
Carry on...

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

I normally run a low 10 second bracket car.When driving Olds wagon it has been a challenge but more so chasing the tuneup to get the car to run decent. Hitting the tree foot braking has been good. I use the same spot as trans brake bracket car and just change rpm's to adjust light. Then it will adjust ET, so I just dont have enough good runs to put in weather station for prediction. I dont think its really that bad to run a slow car

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I have raced slow cars ( 19-14 secs ) for a long time in brackets, back to 1985 when I was in college. I ran a slow car out of necessity because I had no money when I was in school. So here is my take away from all these years. One build a slow car. Two, they can run off with vary little variation in weather, track, etc. But, you can be successful beyond what you can even imagine with a slow car. Pay attention to everything. I can say that we had more consistent cars in Div 3 than Div 4, 7 & 5. IOW the heat seemed to be harder to deal with when dialing the cars. I could win in hotter climates but hot lapping became a problem, carb or EFI. I have always had what I considered good cooling routines between rounds. Reading the guages, mechanical always, didn't seem to give the whole story when dialing the car in hot regions so look at just about every variable, good weather station helps.
One thing about a slow car was that I easily got a lot of runs on it. Practice on Wednesday nights or whatever. I leave on the second bulb " on " with most of these cars, shallow staged .I know some people like deep staging but leave it alone. Unless its obvious you will win take the finish line don't hit the brakes before the finish line. I only turn my head 90 degrees most of the time, use the mirrors otherwise. Have better results taking the line than playing games. I love getting rental cars and entering them in bracket races. Two, three time runs and race. If you do that you'll know what you're getting into. Just remember all rental cars are not created equal, refer to Brent on that. With the way things are go with the slow car.
I'm actually back in Div 3 righrt now and hope to be out in April with something.

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

When my boy was a teenage be races a N/O/P Aspen 318 Wagon.

He had top 5 finishes in Div 7 and went to the All Stars.

I got to the finals in Sonoma two years ago in the wagon and

my driving skills have diminished greatly last 5 years.

We watch the Weather Station /Wind/ Track conditions closely

in ALL our Door cars. Jon's Dragster =Not as much.

As long as our slow cars have a good size Four Barrel carb - They

seem to vary quite a bit less. The little Two Barrels drive my nuts!

For us = Our Fast or Slow Stockers both win races!

Re: Lower Class Imput
 

Build the car if you will have fun racing it . But if you dont like being chased at a bracket race why go 10.80 when most of the field runs 9.00's .Bin there raced that still fun too I enjoy beating faster cars . A c/sa -f/sa car running in the 10,80 gets chased by the new factory cars running 8,50 -9.50;s So the only thing about the lower class car is you always are chased so you dont have to change your driving style of chasing and being chased . See you in the staging lanes .

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I have a slow car, but you know, when I first started going to the track and racing in the 60's and 70's this would have been a fairly fast car.

Took me about a year to get it dialed in and get comfortable in it. I've found you have to be dead on with the shift points. I also keep track of the weather and use prediction software.

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If you don't mind, What's the Car (AMC?) & combo?
Thanks

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It's a '79 AMC Spirit, 304 V8, 125/180 HP. Former Bub Miller, Eric Pearson, Mike Meier car.

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Been getting chased since I began racing mostly due to the affordability of a slower car and affording to be able to raise a family and still race. Finished my latest stocker 3 seasons ago and finally fairly comfortable with it’s performance. Has been a challenge finding my spot on the tree with this car. RTs sometimes inconsistent. Enjoy the challenge of an oddball combination and seeing the fruits of my labor. My family purchased a weather station for me during Christmas’19 and what a difference it has made dialing my car in varying conditions. Have never regretted running a lower class car and always will.