2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced

http://www.nhra.com/content/sportsma...0338&zoneid=85

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Thanks Chad Loge for the extra hp on the six pac!!! We appreciate it.

Good job protecting the combination by going too far under while getting out ran on a heads up run by a tenth!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Doesn't matter to you guys it is still only 405 hp in the cuda, correct?

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Can anyone explain how the AHFS works for modified stuff? How are they grouped etc?

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Same thank you goes out to Jerry Silveus for getting the LT1 hit in GT......AGAIN......for absolutely no reason!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

NHRA's article states that 70-71 autos with the 440-6 are rated at 417, but the classification guide still shows the '70 Cuda @ 405 hp.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Repeat the mantra...
Ummmmmm...Performance Based Class....Ummmmmm...Performance Based Class.......Ummmmmm....Performance Based Class.......Ummmmmm....Performance Based Class.......Ummmmmm....Performance Based Class.......Ummmmmm....Performance Based Class......Ummmmmm....Performance Based Class.......Ummmmmm....Performance Based Class.........Ummmmmm.....Performance Based Class....Ummmmmmmm

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

The B-body 70-71 is the six pac that was hit, the E-body guys have been smarter about going fast. The B-body has been more than the E-body for a couple of years now thanks to the west coast guys not thinking. Funny thing is they always loose two tenths going over the rockies.

The part that stinks is the six pac, 396, and LS-1 all get hit, but NO ONE can run with Hawk. He get's a thumbs up in my book on protecting his combination.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Mr. Hill,

We apologize for this huge infraction which must have cost your go kart several tenths of A SECOND. We do not lift at a 1,000 feet and do not have people with our combo that will go out and run .50 under time and time again. At least we traveled past the rocky mountains to find out we were slow so how does this reflect negatively on us because we are slower and still got hit. We lifted at Pheonix, just not enough. Anytime you would like to discuss our style or status please look us up, we do not run or hide, try coming past the rockies and looking us up, we'll crack a cold one and discuss how negatively this affected you.


Thanks for noticing our performance!!!

Performance Class!!!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

All we're asking for is be smart about when you go fast, you're not the only one who runs the 70-71 B-body six pac.

Going too fast in qualfying is just plain silly. Add weight, change the shift point, disconnect the vaccum to the secondaries, just do something.

The magic number is -1.15 under or 10.40 in B/SA and 10.15 in A/SA. Try to run slower than those numbers unless you absolutly have to.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

I wonder who asked for a HP reduction on the 86 Chevy V-6 pick me up truck? Like it needs one?

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Thumbs up to the guys who actually run their cars down the track like the race cars they are.

The AHFS is not fair for the combo's with small car #'s, period. It's NHRA's ignorance to "award" HP on different body types with same engines yet throw you in with others when they want to. You all know it's the owner/drivers ability to make the car go down the track, not the body type, the $$ (it helps) or East or West of the Rockys.

You seen what the 396 guys did for their combo, make some calls, play some games. Works out as long as you have enough cars in the combo and races to go to. Stock racing is not just racing anymore with a "performance based race car" but how to play a game.

Keep your eye on the "six pack" hit, I don't think it said "B body only", and if it did, well, NHRA could lump all the six packs together as they have for other combos.

If everyone would just remember why they race S/SS, performance, flat out drag racing, and run their cars like a "real" race car not a reality game show maybe NHRA could do away with AHFS and support the racers like years ago.

Just how many of you like to see guys "lifting", it sucks to be there and see that, might as well be a ".90"class. I remember when everyone actually ran them out the door, now it's the "class" in class racing thats gone out the door.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Scott,
In the interest of fairness, please add 300 lbs to your car, disconnect the end carbs and take out 25 degrees of timing to slow your car down to the level of those who are complaining about your obvious advantage.
You should be ashamed of going fast!
John
P.S.
Rich,
Modified cars get the index for the class hit, not individual combos.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

THANK YOU JOHN

By the way did you find the problem with your engine?

Thanks Again
Rich

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Actually, the FEWER cars there are running a certain combination, the EASIER it is to keep it under control. Look to see who DID NOT get hit among the fast cars to see this is true. The iron head 396 ALMOST got hit, and the more popular aluminum head 396 DID get hit. There are a LOT more 396 cars than there are Shelby Mustangs, the only Shelby that got hit this year ran more than 1.4 under. That's ONE example, showing that the Shelby guys have an easier time protecting their combination for the most part. They've been smart, and done a good job of protecting their combination.

The number one most obvious and fatal flaw in the AHFS is that some of the softest combinations that have small car counts never get hit despite actually being faster than more popular combinations with a higher car count that do get hit.

There is no way to do away with the AHFS with the current make up of Stock and Super Stock, and you sure as Hell don't want to replace it with a bunch of people, because you are not going to find enough honest people representing a broad enough cross section of the classes to give fair representation to everyone.

Racing has always been a game, and the really fast guys don't show you what they have on every pass, they never have. Sandbagging will NEVER leave class racing.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

I agree with Alan.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Gene,
We agree 100%!!

Mr. Mason,

I guess the hours in the garage or the $ weve spent were not in the right place. We do and have raced a long time a psychiatrist or brake specialist might have been a better investment.

Mr. Hill,

I was done but decided I would share the facts. 3rd rd at a national event when yoiu've been driving fairly well I would think you would give it everything you had, We DID!! Wesley was .002 or 5 and Chad was .031. Sixty foots and 660 were in favor of Chad by 3 hundredths. Damn close in my book so Chad lifted at about 1,100 when Wesley started goin away but mind you goin away was never more than a wheel. Pomona was a mistake and we knew it. We did not expect the car to run that fast and had made several changes that should have kept it from doing so but instead we may have found a few things that we did not expect.

To the best of my knowledge these are the facts, if you would like at anytime we could discuss this further.


Thank you!!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Well, some people never seem to figure out how to make a car "run", so they favor "games", I guess that's so they can have a chance. It's not the "class" racing I respected and always wanted to be a part of anymore. Why should you have to go slower than your car is capable of on the race track? If your scared of speed and ET, try a lower class, don't lift.

If you look at the races and parts of the country they are run in you will see for the average guy in a low car count combo it's impossible to "save" your combo, fast runs happen, and you can't take them back.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

I have one question? Is there anyone that can not run the index, due to the horsepower hit? You might lose an advantage in class, But these cars can still go fast enough to win an event.
This IS a performance based eliminator.
I think the AHFS is a good idea, BUT they should tear cars down for the automatic stuff. And they should altitude correct all runs, including altitude factored tracks.
I remember the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when the OUIJA (pronouned WE-GEE) BOARD or the DART BOARD were the main source of the fickle finger of factor.I remember engines getting horsepower when there were 2 or 3 faster combos in the same class. Just because they were'nt politically correct.
And I'm not being a crybaby because the combo we ran never got factored.
I think you will see more guys quitting because of sandbagging than the economy. What fun is it to run to 1000 ft and shut down or run 300 pounds heavy.
This is supossed to be racing not coordinated swimming
This is why I'll never go back to a horsepower oriented class. If my index gets hit everyone in the class has to work harder.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

What's done is history, two very nice runs I might add. We just need to communicate better so this AHFS will have a limitted effect on our combinations. Phone 270 994 4004 Larry

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

I took a look back through the archives, and as a general rule, and maybe there are a few exceptions, the low car count combinations that are fast are not hit nearly so often as the higher car count combinations, even when the low car count combinations are faster. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because the evidence I've seen just doesn't support your position. Neither does the math.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Art, the complaint, and it is legitimate, is that while some of the cars that got HP are fast, other cars that are even faster did not get HP. It's not that they lost an advantage, it's that the faster cars just gained again, and the cars that got hit are at an even bigger disadvantage. If you were already around a tenth behind, and suddenly NHRA hung 5HP on you at 8# per HP, then you'd be unhappy as well.

I'm not crying either. Neither of our cars got hit. One reason we don't run a 396 is because there are so many of them and they get hit fairly often. One reason those of us who lobbied for the AA classes also asked for a two tenth lower index is to allow the cars to run. NHRA actually asked us what we felt the index should be, and rather than 11.10, we asked for 10.90, the vote was nearly unanimous, I think only one person dissented.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

I gave up on Stock Eliminator. Well maybe for 2 more years. I checked out a 10K S/SS race in Div. 1.There were a few heavy hitters that were pedaling before the 1000' mark. That's nuts. Her's a solution to the problem. Since we don't get enough qualifying passes how about this. Everyone makes two passes within a 2-3 hour period. You don't get your time. Just like Pinks All Out. Then you get another 2 passes on the clock. Then after tech, eliminations begin. You run faster than your mystery time... your out. Will the supermen of our class be able to defeat this system? Maybe yes. Maybe no.There are two recent winners in S/SS , Mosbeck and Beard that bring home the dream of every S/SS racer that you don't need to run in the top of the class to make it to the finals and win. Every racer that I have spoken to wants to run all out. They do fear refactoring. Refactoring should be done on a yearly basis like before the new season. S/SS is not like Pro Stock. Not everyone is shooting for a 6.67. A 15.80 W/S is pitted against a 9.90 A/SA. The W/S car and driver must be on the money. The combo affords no wiggle room. The A/SA has power advantages but then again his/her budget is much higher. Do the higher class cars always wins? NO. Do the number of cars under "G" at a divisional event out number the higher class cars? Usually YES. How many events no longer pay for a class win. So break the class record. Get your name in ND. Be pround that you picked the right combo or your talented enough to find the extra HP or you died and went to heaven and have all the $ in the world to build a 50K P/SA. Run all out! No pedal racing! No fender racing! Just racing!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

TOO many MOTORS which vary by one cc head spec. one casting number different, one lobe spec. NO ONE will every correct them all to be even with the open books to keep looking.
Want to fix it? Limit motor choices but in any of the car bodies. The smaller the number the easier to control. One 350 chevy 67-72 One set of specs one HP. Too limiting? do you want to fix it? Do you want to run heads up on the gas?
It needs to be similar to AH for fairness to all in the classes. All brands though. Factoring should be brand to brand in a class not 15 350 motors with one cc difference or bigger carb or injected.
Too radical? maybe but it would help make AHFS simpler.
The time of using the books to be fast may be gone for the good of the sport and the attitude of the entire field of racers...

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

The number of different cars, engines, and combinations is NOT the problem. There may still be too many classes. But to start cutting engines out of the guide, or combining them into some sort of bastardized hodge podge is not what is needed. The cars and engines need to stay as close to Stock and as produced as they can given what there is to work with. But limiting engine choices is wrong.

Lynn McCarty has two of the best ideas to help class racing right now. His method to fix the AHFS is great, and the idea to run class during qualifying is just as good.

Maybe we need to look at combining some classes, and probably dropping the indexes 2 to 5 tenths at some point as well.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Why not just institute a rule requiring racers to be no more than a certain # of lbs over minimum class weight? Combine that with a tough and knowledgeable NHRA official (Wesley gets my vote) monitoring those who are pedaling @ 1000'. You get caught being way overweight and/or lifting and can't prove there's mechanical issues then you're DQ'd from the event.

I realize there are other ways to sandbag (timing, bias tires, etc...) but at least this would help to eliminate some of the b.s. I remember being at Indy a couple of years ago and watching a certain pair of Mustangs dominate class elims without ever really being pushed. Happened in lots of other classes too. Not a lot of fun to watch. However, those racers are playing it smart and manipulating the system to retain their edge. It's the system that's flawed, not the racers.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

You cannot FORCE people to run their cars wide open all the time. You cannot FORCE strategy out of racing. It would be stupid to try.

NHRA will not add a bunch of rules.

NHRA will not add a bunch of workload.

NHRA will not add more personnel to enforce rules, especially not for sportsman racing.

Attempting to force everyone to race the way you race, or the way you want them to race is not going to work, and it will hurt the class. The playing field needs to be level, and the rules the same for everyone. Strategy is and always will be part of racing. There are guys who dial honest and try to kill the tree. There are guys who hold as much as a tenth, go for a better than average light, and drive the finish line. There are guys who hold a little and try to kill the tree. All are fair and valid strategies, and well within the rules. Qualifying is a strategy in itself. Some run wide open, some hold a little and try to move, some run in bracket mode, and some run on kill. It's all strategy. Just like running heavy and holding so that if you have a heads up, your opponent may not know what you can run. You may or may not be faster, so you can keep him honest.

Wesley won't even go to a National Event, so I doubt he, or anyone like him, is going to sit at the finish line and watch to see if people dump.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Scott... Your a bad bad boy... go to the corner of the room for 30 minutes and don't do it again!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

No Larry,

Instead of killing heads up racing we need to change this system and add something that makes sense. The only thing that the current system does is a "plateau hone" the very top. The trigger method is faulty and needs to be replaced. No cars should be factored because the air is better. We need to stop doing silly things like that.

It would be so much easier for NHRA and better for the racers.

Lynn
317-839-8378

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Lynn McCarty ideas are very sound and makes a lot of sense . Hire Lynn To get the NEW AHFS Headed in the right directions is the way to go >>

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Here is a simple fix.......

1) Lower the index -.50 in all S/SS
2) Leave the AHFS triggers as is

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

I didn't know this was a women's group. I would have joined along time ago!


Chad Loge's wife :)

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Two things lowering the indexes & not dropping the trigger would do;

1) Get rid of the guys/gals who can only currently run 4/10's under or slower! (Shame on them anyway according to some)!
2) Let NHRA see just who was sandbagging in those fast cars as they are going to be running that much quicker. It will be then be clear to them who needs to be re-factored. More cars then should fall off the backside as slower cars of that combination are again stung deleting even more of the competition. Just what class racing needs,less racers.


My simple answer is the opposite of JD Smith;

1)Leave the indexes where they are.
2) Lower the trigger .35 , then factor those fast combos accordingly.

3) Allow cars to be only so heavy for the class that it is running in at the time. Same consequences as too light,run doesn't count.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Here is another simple fix.............

1) Run em' all off the index
2) Get rid of the AHFS completely

3) tear down the top 5 qualifiers at every race plus winner and runner up (violations are 1 year off no exceptions)

will have the same effect....

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Now somebody is finally making sense! But..........the problem is everyone had the opportunity to race this way in the NSCA a couple of years and none of these crybabies showed up because they cried that the same people would win because they were faster!!! You just can't come up with a solution that would make everyone happy!!!

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Here is another simple fix.............

1) Run em' all off the index
2) Get rid of the AHFS completely

3) tear down the top 5 qualifiers at every race plus winner and runner up (violations are 1 year off no exceptions)

will have the same effect....

Sounds like that would work.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Tried years ago...miserable failure.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

A few thoughts,
Keith,
After my 30 minute break i decided we were still to pig headed to change. Sorry!!!

Again we point fingers and scream at each other but the problem is the system and it's administration. Some run all out, others dive at 1,000. Horsepower is given and we taunt each other not where the real problem lies. We got hit for a run where we were outrun by a tenth. That car did not get hit. System problem or driver problem? 340 in a 72 duster 289 in a 72 cuda 299 because somebody chose to run all out. I will only comment on our cars but there are many examples to use. We have been beating this horse since it started. take the 2 tenths back off the index and it's a mute point for us. If you can't run the index then go bracket race. 1/2 the guys that are .3 to .4 tenths under are bagging anyway. Those same cars go 1. sec under in a heads up situation.

Re: 2008 Mid Year Stock, Super Stock Horsepower Adjustments Announced
 

Hey Scott.... There is still hope for you and Chad,,,,It took me 4 times going to the corner to stop doing it...LOL

Hell...I might do it again.... I'm just kidding Jim, Cal, Doug, Andy, ect..