How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

If people wanted to get back to the performance classes, How many classes would be needed to make it racing again and achievement to win not just post a "good Number somewhere"?
TODAY : At points meets it is bracket race so everyone qualifies and runs on a dial in. No classes needed, just one set of rules and shoe polish.
At a National event, if you want more than one person to take home the money you need more separation of the cars into "Classes"
If you want to spead the accomplishment around and allow reward for competing Heads up with similar cars , How many classes are really needed? Does a special series of classes" Need to be for Trucks?" Do we need a FWD series of classes?Do there "need to be Modified classes in SS?"Does there need to be a Stick and an Auto series of classes?Could GT and SS be folded together with a wt break for SS?

How many rounds in class would make it fun ? 0ne? two?, How about 4 so we could shoot for no Bye runs. That would make it 16 cars per class. With 5 classes that is 80 entrants. or 8 classes 128 entrants.Again No Byes if you ran an eliminator with all the class winners 8,4,2,1 ( more could be used to ease wt issues)
NHRA could count on enough cars per about any division to have class at more events without all the BYE run winners taking up time to make runs. They could still admit the same numbers of cars and increase the non bracket racing.
8 classes in Stock , 8 in SS. This just means make em fit the Wt breaks like today. Maybe start at 6.0, 7.,8.,9.,10.,12.,14,16 in SS. Stock start at 8.
Sponsors might be able to return to pay 8 class winners not 96 or per event. Fans might like Heads up 8 classes. Racers might like the TOP/Stock type mentality of each wt break.
All the issues could be fixed with constructive thought not destructive agendas. It sure seems this would beat all bracket racing with only rewarding Fastest cars which might not even be produced or factored.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Only one and you could fly in have the race over in 10 minutes. Let's call it AA/WALLET TOSS. NHRA was founded so that many different class cars could find a place to compete. The inovative classes of the 50's, 60's and 70's have been replaced by the buy your part classes of today. Not a bad thing but this sport needs a place for the Billy Nees's and Niel Smedleys too.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick you seem to be against the FWD classes.
Just for the record. What cars (street drivers). Do you and your family drive?
If you want all rear wheel drive cars. How about all the suv's that have no class to run?
Heres an idea. Three classes.
Stock all run anything goes idex 10.90
Superstock all run anything goes index 9.90
Comp/Superstock all run anything goes index 8.90
Will that MAKE you "happy"

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Art, Can FWD run in another Wt break is my question. Can they not compete unless by themselves? That is an honest question. How many wt breaks are needed for just FWD What if they all ran in ONE class and had ONE winner to provide to Eliminator?
As for the 10.90 question which I see as sarcasm but dont you recognize currently they just let you put the dial on and break out on your choice or win instead of them "giving" you a dial of 10.90? The difference is what now?
What does what I drive have to do with Class racing. Does there have to be a class for EVERYONE thing built? Okay? Any way you say it one car per class if there are 1000 classes is Bracket racing.... 10 Cars per class is class racing when they run each other....

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Larry , If there are so many classes to race and so few people who run per class it is already Wallet toss. The Cost of a car to dial in and run 1.0 under without racing someone for a prize even as small as a trophy and a trip to eliminator is too high today to save it for ONE professional Sportsman racer per event.
Some of the $30K Stockers or $50K SS or $100K AH + cars are too expensive to just dial in and gamble on all the factoring to be right to win a round against Pros..

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

People who don't race shouldn't have any to say about class racing.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick it's my choice to run a 50 cent POS just the same as it is someone elses choice to run a 50K collector car. You buys your ticket you takes your shot. I drove my first ever front drive stocker on Monday and it is an absolute HOOT to drive. I drive as Art says a front drive car every day. Never thought one of these things would be any fun at all, but I've been wrong on other stuff too. I've been doing this crap for a long time in total obscurity, but as long as most that post on here so I know a little history too. NHRA wasn't set up as a Country Club if it was most of us wouldn't want to be there. Is a Country Club Race Orginization what you want? If so start your own.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

There is as much diversity in FWD cars with power/weight ratio as thier is in RWD yet there are only 5 stock classes for FWD cars yet there are 46 classes for RWD. FWD are already combined Stick/Auto with 1lb or larger weight breaks. Super Stock there is only (1) FWD classification, again combine stick/auto.

Looking to Indy as the benchmark for participation there was a participant in each of the FWD classes - there were several RWD classes uncontested.

In terms on combining FWD and RWD on a single index this is unreasonable - power/weight factoring does not create a level playing field between FWD, RWD car and RWD truck (how many trucks have won class against cars since being combined - how many still even compete). The inherent handicaps on the chassis dynamics for both the FWD cars and the trucks would require some compensation. Possibly a weight break for them could level the field.

I'm all for more heads up runs - I'm waiting for Art to get the bugs sorted on his car so we can duke it out. I think there is enough data as most of the active combos have been running for 20+ years, they should be able to develop a factor (weight break, etc) to allow stick/auto to be combined.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

As far as NHRA is concerned, leave the stock classes alone. FWD cars make great low budget and entry level cars. The same goes for lower class (U, V, W). SS and GT should remain separated, the differences are too great to combine these classes. The modified classes were supposed to be eliminated years ago anyways. Either move them to Comp or create a modified class again (unfortunately that will never happen). That's my opinion anyhow.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Thanks Tim, That is the discussion needed. How to get it done.
As for not having a car one thing for sure I have nothing to gain from having friendly discussion about the topics on this or any other site. I am not pushing for any loop hole to make me a FAST SS?(fill in the blank) car by poor factoring, or creating a paper car to look good on paper when the Stats show up.
I enjoy friendly discussions and learning about other peoples points of view and cars and issues that affect them in Drag Racing.
I do feel strongly against the continual push to more Bracket racing with expensive S and SS cars. I think guys who get reward from competing Heads up deserve more attention too. Thats the way it started and has gradually been diluted as I have explained by TOO many classes to choose . I am not sure being creative in a one car class is the whole point of racing... It is afterall about RACING someone. If a class doesnt become populated by some critical number like 10 or 12 or?? should it always be on the books? Does the whole form of racing bend down to the least competitive parts of the racing.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick, I am going to speak to you as "friendly" as I possably can. First of all let me tell you that I believe FWD guys have already paid their dues. Our classes were already completely removed from existance. Then after more than one year of debate, pleading, and not so nice conversations with the various NHRA powers that be I was told "ok, if you want to continue to run FWD classes then you reorganize them into 4 classes period." Compton himself made that desision so you can imagine how much thought was put into it! So I did. Later with the help of Chrysler NHRA agreed to a fifth class for the late model FWD performance cars. Sticks and Autos run together with 100lbs. added to all stick combos. You have NEVER had one kind word for FWD cars. Maybe this escapes most of the RWD racers but believe me us FWD guys see it (see Arts comments above) I bet you don't even consider me a real racer, even though I have been racing class cars since I was 18. Maybe if there weren't people like you slamming our cars we would have better car counts in our classes. I can't count the number of times I have been told I was "brave" to run a FWD car and take the abuse and snide remarks from guys like you. Look, I'm not going to say "you don't even race so why listen to you"., but you got your Top Stock and your Jr. Stock and several other heads up classes. now leave the rest of us alone! Now Larry just told you after driving a FWD Stocker for the first time that it was a "hoot". I agree, it is a hoot. There are many others out there who will agree with Larry and me. I'm sorry but if all I had to chose from was a big block Camaro or a small block Firebird (I had one, ask Woodro) I would never race again. I like to be different! I have a SS small block Dodge sitting in my shop right now. It has been covered up for 21 years because I am having fun racing FWD cars! Now I know you have plenty of money and could build or have built just about any car you desire, but I know also you would never own a FWD race car so I'm going to make it easy for you. I challenge you to come to the Southern S/SS Assn. race in Reynolds next week and I will put you behind the wheel of my AF/S SRT4 Neon FWD Stocker. If after you make a pass or two you can honestly say it wasn't a "hoot" I will pay your air fare back home. Now don't worry, after 20 years of driving FWD race cars nobody has ever questioned the size of my penis so I doubt they they would question a big bad opinionated guy like you.

FWD classes have paid their dues, 1) Greatly reduced classes (slashed by 75%) 2) Combined sticks and autos. 3) Index reductions. Now it's your turn!

"Can FWD run in another Wt break is my question. Can they not compete unless by themselves? That is an honest question. How many wt breaks are needed for just FWD What if they all ran in ONE class and had ONE winner to provide to Eliminator?"

Dick, That question shows exactly how much you know about the situation. That has to be the dumbest question I have ever seen on this forum! How about we run ALL Stocker and Super Stockers in one class and one WT. break then race each other in the final? OMG! Dick, have you completely lost it?
Jim

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Amen Jim well said.

Dennis Stock FWD.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Ouch - being told you'd be out 60' by an Escort is almost as embarrasing as a 12-second comp car - right back at ya.....

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Thanks to Bill Belden, he's correct, furthermore; the NHRA created the classes, not the racers, so I guess we need as many classes as the NHRA has, if not, they would change them, like when they cut Superstock off at P. Sponsors pay for advertisement, the more cars, the more exposure. If any race is promoted correctly, the fans will come. Baltimore's Preakness is a good example. It's all crap, and most people don't understand what's going on, but it's promoted properly, so it fills up every year.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Anybody got a 1/2 second Steve can borrow for the comp. car? ;) as for the question...do we need to combine anymore classes? We have the F.I. cars in with the carb car now let's let that run for a couple years before we change anything else. my .2 cents is "IF" they were to change anythig it would be go to 1lb weight breaks....but it would have no effect on me so that's why I say to go that way.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

I have said this before, but a good announcer who knows the cars and knows more about the drivers can make or break a session of stock/super stock for the fans.

The fans need to know that the drivers worked on their cars up until the time they left their driveway, that we drove all night to get to a track just in time to make the first qualifying pass, that we changed a flat trailer tire or zip tied the fender to the trailer on our way to the track. A regular announcer from each division can get to know the drivers as well as their cars. They need to know that a Camaro is a Camaro, but they need to know a little more about each car. Each car and driver has a personality. In my opinion, that is what can make or break the classes. Given some background, it will put a different spin on the races when a SS/EX Cobalt runs Bucky Hess (ex.) first round at Indy.

maybe with alot of tracks putting in new timing and computer systems, there could be sort of a pop-up screen that includes a few things about you or your car that the announcers can work in to their call.

Just look at the driver blogs that NHRA has for the pro's. How many of you read about Angelle Sampey having to take her pet monkey to a shelter in Florida because he got so mean that she could no longer take care of him. That is just one example.

Alot of our older fans relate to the cars, but newer fans from different generations are into information and details. That is what the sanctioning bodies need to supply to them.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Uh, I hate to be the guy to break the bad news to you, but Dick Butler was NOT the guy who started Top Stock, OR Jr. Stock for that matter. That would be Division 1 tech man Dave Ley. Dick has only been trying to promote Top Stock and Top Super Stock in Division 3, with some success, at least with Top Stock. I have been helping him. Because some Division 2 racers, about 2 dozen or so, have asked, we've been trying to get Top Stock going in Division 2. So Dick didn't "get classes he wanted", but rather he HELPED some racers to get classes they wanted. No one is paying him, either, he does not get a dime, every penny is paid back to the racers. He drives at his own expense to the races, and has actually driven a thousand miles at his own expense just to help promote the races to potential sponsors. I have yet to see Top Stock take a time trial or anything else from the regular program. It is wildly popular with the racers AND the fans in Division 1. It does fairly well in Division 3, given the limited number of races run so far.

Dick isn't the guy who came up with the idea to consolidate classes, either. That came from other racers, and I also overheard some NHRA people talking about it. Maybe it is a good idea, maybe it isn't. But it might be coming whether we like it or not, so it might be wise to study the idea, and at least be able to give input on it if it comes about.

On the flip side, I disagree completely with Dick's proposal to eliminate a bunch of combinations in an attempt to streamline the classes. If it is in the class guide legitimately, it needs to stay there for people to try. It may or may not be necessary to consolidate the classes further, but it is not necessary to remove cars or combinations. I don't care if it is fast or slow, or even if it is front wheel drive.

Honestly, asking if the front wheel drive cars can competitively run in a class with rear wheel drive cars is a legitimate question. People not familiar with front wheel drive cars probably won't know the answer. So rather than throw a temper tantrum, consider taking the time to give a polite, honest answer as to whether it will work or not, and if it won't, why.

Consider this: Change is inevitable. NOTHING is FOREVER. The sport of drag racing has been in a constant state of change throughout its history. Even in my relatively short time as a diehard fan, from the age of 6 or 7 years old, I've seen radical change from top to bottom, and that only covers a period of less than 40 years.

Further, not all change makes everyone happy. Even no change will not make everyone happy. And remember, the one thing that does not change is that there will be change.

Sportsman racing, and yes class racing as a subset, will change, as it always has. This year we've seen AA class added in Stock, and the fuel injected classes merged. Next year, we already know that "sport compact" cars will come to Super Stock. And we do not know what else will change.

What is sad is that this is supposed to be an adult group, but it never fails that instead of a calm rational discussion, we get name calling and temper tantrums. You see as much of "If I don't get my way I'll take my ball and go home" here as you'll see on any kindergarten playground. Rather than making any real attempt to talk or debate, possibly working towards or at least considering a compromise if nothing else, for the good of the class, we have what amounts to people stomping their feet and holding their breath. Hell, it looks to me like a lot of people can't even agree to disagree with at least decency and mutual respect.

I'm not saying "why can't we all just get along", because that's not really a reasonable goal. I can listen to and respect just about anyone who can state their position with facts and decency rather than a bunch of uncalled for histrionics, and I can accept and respect their opinion, not matter how vehemently I disagree with it.

Whether or not anyone wants it, I'd bet change is coming, and we'd all be a lot better off trying to achieve some sort of workable compromises, rather than refusing to even try. Because if we don't direct the change ourselves, they'll do it the way they want, and you'll get what they give you. And I'm betting very few will like it. Given what I've seen around here in the last few days, I can understand why few people would want to be on the committee, and why NHRA would not want to bother trying to work with the racers when they can more easily just do what they want to.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Alan, When I said "you got your Top Stock and your Jr. Stock and several other heads up classes." to Dick, I meant collectively. As in: you ALL have your classes. Everyone knows in Dick's world the only kind of racing is heads up. Everything else is just bracket racing and shouldn't be allowed. I don't begrudge you your class, so don't you begrudge me mine. Get it?

Several years ago NHRA said they were going to combine FWD cars with RWD cars, do you remember? With some assistance a study was done. It was determined it wasn't possible. That is when they decided to eliminate them all together. I'll give you an example. I'll use my car. I run BF/S which is a 16lb class. Now, cross that over to RWD classes and you come up with P/SA a 16lb class. Now I have run a best of 13.60 at BF/S weight. My index is 14.95. P/SA index is 13.75. The record in P/SA is currently 12.17. The record in BF/S is currently 13.97. Do you see a disparity there? Now comes the question, why? I won't even get into the physics of "pulling" a car 1320 feet and "pushing" a car that distance. Lets just say that efficiency is on the side of "pushing". Then you get into the parts disparities. There are generally no trick cams (I use a totally bone stock cam) lifters, pistons, superseded heads, rods, cranks, oil pans available for FWD combos. There are also no trick gear ratios for the transmissions. No final drive options either. Basically 90% of a FWD Stocker is truly "stock" They just started making real slicks available for FWD cars about 5 years ago, and there are only 2 or 3 sizes at that. I would say the FWD cars are the only true Stockers running now-a-days. My Spirit from the factory would run in the 18 second range. Could you knock almost 5 seconds off your combo using bone stock parts? No trick transmissions, no unlimited rear gear ratio, no trick cams, pistons, rods, cranks superseded heads, ignitions, computers etc. I hope that answers your question as to why FWD cars can not run equally with RWD cars. Jim

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Jim, you CAN get pistons, cams, and lifters for your car. You would have to PAY for them just like the rest of us.

We don't get "trick" oil pans, we have to run stock GM pans. We could weld baffles, if necessary. They aren't. I have a scraper and a windage tray. Both could easily be fabricated in any garage where you'd maintain a race car.

There's nothing "trick" about a connecting rod. We have to run stock dimension rods (some can run a different rod, if necessary NHRA will approve something) and the aftermarket will make you any rod you want. If you NEED an upgraded rod, they'll make it and NHRA will approve it. But a stock dimension rod won't make you any faster, even in you manage to get it a few grams lighter.

NHRA offers you .430" lift on your cam or factory lift, whichever is higher (special for FWD), and I run a .390/.410 in the G/S car, cores for your cam are available, and a cam company WILL grind you a stocker style cam. It's even easier and cheaper these days, with computer modeling, and CNC grinders so you don't even have to pay to make a master. They'll even cut you a trick steel core custom from a billet, if you want, just like they will for me.

If you need a flat tappet made, several companies will make you a tool steel flat tappet, and if you want them DLC coated, they'll do that too. Whoever makes the Shubeck style lifter would probably be more than happy to make you a set.

I can't run replacement heads on the G/S car either. It's the original head approved for the car. Some of the fastest rear wheel drive cars in the country run original casting heads.

I have to run a stock crank, nothing trick, a GM forging, blueprinted. You can have yours blueprinted, too. Anyone who can do a Stock blueprint on a 350 Chevy crank can do the exact same thing for you.

JE, CP, Ross, Diamond, or Venolia will make you a set of pistons just likeJE made mine. And you can go through the NHRA piston approval process, just like I did.

Total Seal will make you just about any ring package you can think of, so long as a base ring is available in the bore size. They'll cut them down, they'll make spacers, they'll do a Napier cut, they'll even mix and match oil ring components. So will Childs and Albert, so will Ackerly and Childs, and if you're really industrious, you can get a Speed Pro catalog, and make some of it up yourself out of open stock. I did that long before I started getting Total Seal to do it for me.

If you want to work with the wiring, you can have aftermarket ignition, if you need it. We adapted MSD stuff to computer cars long before there was "plug and play" stuff available. You can do it too, if you need it.

And there are PLENTY of aftermarket EFI computers, and they don't ALL just work on Camaros and Firebirds. Computers are stupid, they just crunch numbers, and read tables. The factory programmed yours, just like they did the ones for Camaros, Corvettes, Firebirds, and Mustangs. An aftermarket programmer can be adapted to reprogram yours, just like it can theirs.

You can have whatever header you need made, or make it yourself. If you want or need one, any number of custom header companies will make them.

Ferrea, REV, Manley, or any number of valve companies will make you a set of stainless under cut valves, too. And they won't be much if any higher than ours are.

No, you can't get aftermarket gear sets or final drives, you do have a handicap there, I agree. About all you have is converter options. As short as some of those slicks are, they shorten up the gear just a little.

But do not try to tell me you can't have parts made for your engine like the rest of us, or you can't tune your computer. I have custom stuff made on a monthly basis, and I've been through the NHRA approval process, the hard way.

Without what you call "trick parts", you are, by your own admission 1.35 under your INDEX, and .37 under the RECORD. If those trick parts that I have supposedly make it not only possible but easy for me to go fast, imagine what they'll do for you, as fast as you are without them!

As a comparison, 1.35 under for me would be a 10.85, and .37 under the record would be a 10.61. Doesn't seem to me like you have it all THAT tough. NHRA would have me down so far it'd take 3 people 8 hours just to load the car in the trailer, and it'd take a month to put it back together. Not to mention a 10.60 would get me enough HP to move up a couple of classes.

I don't begrudge you a class to race your car. But I don't buy the line about not being able to buy parts, except drivetrain parts. And supposedly, it's more efficient to pull a car than to push it. Or so several FWD car makers claim.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Alan, I think you missed the whole point of my last post. The question raised was why can't FWD cars compete with RWD cars in the same weight class. I showed you that on my best run ever in great air I ran .15 under the P/SA index which would be the comparable RWD class. I could put twin turbos and a Warren Johnson built engine in the car and never come anywhere near the 12.17 record! There is the problem of traction also. When a FWD car leaves the line the weight transfers to the rear end and makes the front lighter which make the tires spin. The same action is an advantage for a RWD car. Have you ever seen the size tires those Sport FWD guys have to run to get their cars to hook?
Look, I'm not going to battle you on every little point. You have made some good ones. However you are dead wrong on several. Now here is where I am at the advantage, I have run RWD cars for many years in Stock and Super Stock and no, I didn't set the world on fire, much like you, but I do have a good grasp on how they work. You on the other hand I'm betting, have never even worked on a FWD race car let alone driven one, and that's ok with me. But after saying that, I find it hard to believe that you could profess to me that I and the other FWD racers "don't have it so bad". I respectfully am telling you that you know not of what you speak this time! The one thing that sticks out to me is, and I have got to believe most people reading this will agree, is that it is just plain silly to try and say that parts availability are equal between my 2.5 Chrysler and the small block Chevy. Remember FWD was started as an inexpensive route for guys without boatloads of money to enjoy the sport. All I want to do is have fun. All I want is for guys like Dick to realize is that some people have different ideas about things, and I want him to respect that, not try and do away with it! You have never heard ME say there are too many RWD classes and I think we should get rid of them. I constantly hear that from many people on here about FWD cars though. 5 frigging classes! Thats all there are. Can't we all just get along? I will be glad to speak to you one on one Alan my friend the next time I see you but this is my last post on the subject here. You can only beat an old dog so many times before he bites you, I'm afraid I'm gunna bite somebody! Peace. Jim

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

I don't think anyone raised the question, or the evil specter, of FWD cars competing with RWD cars at the same weight class. You ASSUMED they were.

Jim, you claimed you can't buy the parts. The Chrysler 2.5 liter 4 cylinder is not that hard to get parts for, people race them, and Chrysler supports them. Further, you seem to be inferring that Stock Eliminator parts for a small block Chevy, (or Ford, or Chrysler for that matter), are just commonly available at your local speed shop or parts store. No, they are not. You have to special order ALL of them. Pistons are custom made to order, you don't call Jeg's or Summit. Same with camshafts, same with rings, and all the other parts YOU claimed WE have that are "trick", and YOU claim are not available to YOU. I went down YOUR list, and told you what you could do, if you WANTED to, just like the rest of us do. I also agreed you couldn't get the drivetrain parts we can.

Further, you admit that you don't have the blueprinted Stock parts we have, and yet you can run so much farther under the index AND the record that AT LEAST as far as qualifying goes that there is NO COMPARISON. Then you claim you can't compete. But since you haven't bought the parts like the rest of us, you cannot back up that claim. You don't know what the engine CAN do, because you claim you can't get the parts. And yes, I've seen the FWD sport compact racing.

You plainly state you picked your car up almost FIVE SECONDS, and do it WITHOUT all of those engine parts, and told me I couldn't do that with mine (and you are right). And then you go on to tell everyone how far under the index and the record you can run without those parts, 1.35 under the index, and .37 under the current record. Well, I can tell you that a 69 Camaro 255HP 350 4 speed car will run around a mid 15 second quarter on street tires. The RECORD in G/S is 10.98, so that's 4 1/2 seconds, and to do it, you have to have all those trick parts you claim you can't get. That's 1.22 under the index. So, you've picked your car up more than I could pick mine up by the current standards, run farther under the index, AND can reset the record, by almost 4 TENTHS. Further, you did it without al those "trick parts". And you want to tell me because your slicks are on the other end of the car, you have it so much harder than guys like me?

You're right Jim, I don't work on FWD stockers. I worked on FWD cars for a living for years, and do not want to again. Yes, actually I have driven FWD cars at the track, and no, I much care for them. But that does not mean I don't have any idea how they work. And you came right out and told all of us they don't need parts to go fast (comparatively speaking).

Not only that, but the last race I was at, there were THREE cars I had to race for class (I got stomped, I've only run 7 tenths under, I'll go faster next time). So there are cars out there to keep guys like me honest, and make us actually run hard. When is the last time you faced three cars in your class at a small race like a SportsNational Open? You don't have to worry too much about anyone getting you HP, either.

To be in the same position as the guys racing G/S with the same combination as I am, or similar combinations, you'd have to have an index of 14.80, and you'd hold the record with your 13.60. AND you'd have to run a 13.80 to win class, most places you went, and face 2-4 cars. And that's BEFORE you'd have to buy all those parts you don't already have. And then you'd have to buy all those parts, because the other guys would, and NHRA would refactor you, just like they have us.

Your performance numbers, without the trick parts, put you on par with T/SA. They run at 19 pounds, you run at 16. So, what happens if NHRA says "okay, we're going to merge the FWD cars with the rest, and the handicap is that the FWD cars run 3.0 pounds per HP lighter than RWD"? I'm not saying it could, or should be done. But since you compared your numbers to a RWD class at the same weight, and you claim a severe disadvantage, I compared them to a much heavier RWD class.

So Jim, we've been honest, no name calling, and we've only stated FACTS. We disagree, and I can respect the fact that you race a FWD stocker, and you like it. But you say you can't discuss it anymore without getting mad? That's a shame. You assume we all want FWD cars kicked out. That's not true. The vast majority of us are fine with FWD cars, or slow RWD cars. But just don't try to tell us all how far the table is tilted for us and against you when the parts bill, the qualifying sheets, and the performance gains prove otherwise. And I still like you, I still respect you, I still want you to have a class to race your car, and I can still disagree with you and not get nasty.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Alan,
Thanks for the information you posted regarding the TOP/STK racing. Even better the discussion of parts availablity. Small block chevies didnt get running this fast by not ordering the parts. Rear wheel cars didnt get fast by not having the first person start the process of pro gears, Axles etc.Manufacturers create parts based on requests for them.
Seems from Jims discussion the FWD cars have not really shared the cost of approaching a manufacturer to start making the trick unbreakable parts to run faster. It appears by Jims on performances they havent needed these parts and it has gotten comfortable that way.
On one site a group of people were pooling money to purchase 5.00 gears for their cars as the manufacturers were willing to make a "run" if enough were purchased.
With the prior FWD racing meets enough people with money or need to buy these better parts didnt surface and the manufacturers didnt get into common production of them. The lack of interest from racers resulted in the demise of the NHRA series and the second sponsor.
Jim Who has the turbo Neon who drives to the meet in IHRA and qualifies 1.4 under? Just a question.
Jim as I posted on Superstockforum yesterday, I apologize that you took the "Class racing Question" as a "do away with FWD" topic. IT IS NOT. It is a consolidate topic to save Class racing so the $30K stockers are not just used for Bracket racing. The $150,000 AH cars not only have Indy to be presented as an attraction.

Alan is correct, changes are inevitable and I was only curious what constructive discussion points could be discussed to help direct these changes. If the racers continue to say "NHRA provides it so it must be right" many will keep being upset as the changes just Happen to them. With an Advisory committee attempt by NHRA , with honest calm discussion maybe NHRA would realize the racers CAN help direct the changes for better racing and work WITH NHRA to improve it for EVERYONE. Thanks

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

On the other hand, Dick, give the FWD racers their due. There will likely never be enough of them to get transmission ratios and final drive ratios made other than what is sold by the factory. That is true, and will likely remain true. In that area, and in weight transfer, they do have a distinct disadvantage that they will likely never overcome. Jim is quite correct, they cannot compete in the same weight class, at least not now, and likely never. Maybe they can be merged at a special weight break, and maybe they can't. And I am not saying they should be.

However, NHRA has consolidated classes in the last year or so already, and if all these people saying NHRA is looking to cut classes, they might be eliminating or merging other classes.

IF NHRA wants to reduce the number of classes, they have several options.

1. They could merge stick and automatic classes. The RWD racers are by far the majority, and the outcry would likely be pretty substantial, even the stick racers are fairly large in number.

2. They could take the 1/2 pound weight breaks in the upper classes and merge them to 1 pound weight breaks. The 1/2 pound weight break classes are AA thru N. There are a LOT of cars in those classes, and a lot of them will be very unhappy, and very vocal about it.

3. They could either merge the FWD cars, or eliminate them. There are fewer of them than there are in either of the other groups and options above. On the one hand, there's a good side to that. They only cut 5 classes, either way they go, merge or eliminate, so they don't make much progress in reducing classes, so doing something with FWD classes may not make enough of a difference for them to bother. The flip side of that is there are relatively few cars in those classes, and few racers, so they will not have nearly as much outcry if they get merged or cut. Which is why they are so defensive, and I can understand that.

4. They could do some combination of the above.

Now, I'm not advocating ANY of the above ideas. I'm not even one of the ones who proclaimed that reducing classes was NHRA's goal after the latest rule. I do not know whether they are or not for sure, but like I said before, I have "heard' they are.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Alan,
Good discussion. I still hope to see Jim acknowledge my apology. I did give the FWD racers their due respect for progressing and competing. If their classes become popular per class to attract 15 cars like GT/AA at Indy they will see the market for the parts they have yet to develop....You can bet the aftermarket pieces in those cars are at a maximum use to win that class. They also must recognize that when so many cars accumulate in BA or AA or AH it is an indicator of what Class racing means to a large number of racers. My thoughts were it should be widened to More racers to enjoy at more places to get the sense of accomplishment that comes from a Class win of this size. The winner of these classes can be as proud of class win as some might be at Dial in racing. Fewer classes/more per other classes the more this racing increases. It will be interesting to see the numbers in other classes for INDY.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick What makes you think some FWD racres haven't put a lot of effort into parts.
I had a torque converter built that had the same guts in it as a SS street hemi car would run made 3 passes with it and it didn't feel right. Sent it back , and was asked if I neutral dropped the car? It was destroyed inside. .
That was with a FWD stocker. Nothing wrong with the converter builder. A large percentage of class cars use the same. They eventually built one that lasted for years on my car.
What you guys are proposing is the same as running a bone stock 69 427 camaro against a present day 69 427 camaro stocker.
We do not have the 50+ years of development that the rwd cars have. And the only way the fwd cars could catchup would be to freeze rwd devolpment for years. And that ain't giong to happen.
One point you guys seem to miss is that the fwd cars use a lot more seat of the pants personal innovation than the rwd cookie cutter cars
Some mopar guys can't stand chevies or fords but do the preach doing away with them.
If doing away with fwd is what you want I think you are about 75 years to late and on the wrong continent

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

When everybody races we all win! The BIG THREE are sick why? Bad management and also what is the insentive to race American Iron.. REMEMBER RACE ON SUNDAY SELL ON MONDAY? Sure it is easy to race with Detroit muscle of the 60's 70' and those few inbetween( if you got the $$$). Watching 4's,6's and lower class V8's may not be very exciting to the public but it is quite the moment when they beat the fast guy. I'm going in the opposite direction. I have a 10.90 bracket car and I'm looking for a 4 banger stocker.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Classes were formed so that a wide variety of combinations could compete. The idea of trying to lessen the classes are for what reason?
The following questions should be said in a whining type voice. The answer part is done in a rather authoritive voice.
1) There are so many classes that there are too many bye runs for class
Answer-What does it matter, NHRA is only concerned with the fastest 128 according to its latest rule.
2) It takes too long to run all those singles.
Answer- It does not matter, they run singles as pairs anyway. Two classes, one run, two winners.
3) The sponsors do not like paying for singles.
Answer- NHRA needs to stop making the sponsors pay for ALL the classes that are in a category,
instead pay for only the classes with competitors in it. This will save them tons of money.
4) There are too many soft classes.
Answer- If they are so soft, then why are you not running that class and running 1.5 under being the #1.
5) There are too many slow cars.
Answer-Get off of your egotistical self centered trip, performance is what you make of it. BBC.SBC,
BBF, SBF, BBC, SBC, and soon to come, the Imports.
6) The fans don't want to see slow cars.
Answer-That is only in time trials, at 8:00 AM when the stands are "really" packed. During eliminations
though, you can bet that the old tortoise vs hare is the best show going instead of side by side
competition that they always see in the pro classes.
7) We need to change things as technology advances.
Answer-The imports are here, now you've got technology coming.
8) This is a performance based category.
Answer-Start over at question #1

Ron Ortiz
U/SA Cheese is now being served.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Thank you Ron, I owe you a beer or two! Jim

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Really? I have a 4 banger Stocker for sale, but I'm not looking for a 10.90 bracket car. (LOL)
Give me a call
602-769-0346

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

I just realized something. Some of you want to cut the classes in stock.
But nobody mentions Comp their are more comp classes the stock or super stock.
Why aren't you over there?
Afraid somebody with big bucks. Might arange an accident or suicide for you?????

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Start with the reasons for the question which started this post.
1) no sponsor money or very low for S and SS other than Eliminator
Reason Large number of classes to post and many nationals. Disgust with paying NHRA for empty class or bye run racers. They see this as poor investment as no cars using their products in class.
2) Low car counts in many classes and when entry restricted lower per class or many byes
Reason: Total numbers of racers in the country divided by many classes and geography cant all enter or attend.
3)Spectator appeal down at Divisional and Open events and even Sportsnational Spectator numbers down to essentially nothing. Result No money other than participants entry and Sponsor money to pay prize money and overhead. Reasons Many including internal attitude of NHRA feeling no one cars about Sportsman racing as a spectator due to many factors. The least of which is not the Dial in only format.
4) High Cost of creating S or SS car which can run competitively under the index is extreme today.If they are only to be used to Dial in for eliminator then WHY the high technology, WHy the strict rules(changing).
5) There are racers who enjoy winning class and the Pride which comes from this type of racing.
6) Eliminator only truely rewards one S and SS racer. RESPONSE: If more classes had 15 cars and could attract paying sponsors again then MANY racers could share at this level the rewards of Trophy, Pride in achievement and driving skills.
Couldnt there at least be more opportunity and conditions that increase that possibility, and encourage SPonsors to pay.Isnt the dilution to few or one car per class showing the opportunity to merge some classes?Isnt the change to quickest 128 showing that performance is overriding the Class win due to its diminished value from the NHRA point of view and the more competitive racers being favored?
Jim and Art Notice in no place were FWD cars listed negatively. If you re read the original post Mod cars were questioned in SS and the Stick/ Auto combination questioned as well. GT/SS combination is questioned too.
Any or all of these could take adjustment, factor, wt break but the question stands. How many classes?for improvement of other peoples type of racing preferences.
Seeing SS/AH at 17 cars, GT/AA at 15 and BA at close to that has anyone checked how many classes will not be represented?
People are enthusiatic about the GT/AA class run and SS/AH as well. This could be spread to many classes and the Greater number of racers enjoy the Pride of achievement of winning Class since Eliminator is only a One man victory.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick,
I saw no apology written anywhere. Did you see my post where I congratulated you on what you have done? No, don't drive my race cars to the track and race. I see the old FWD legend continues! I also saw no answer to my offer to you. I respect Alan for his knowledge of our sport and what it takes to compete and I doubt he will try to blacken my eye the next time we see each other. You on the other hand don't seem to have a clue in that respect. Maybe you should just stick to promoting specialized cars and races and stop trying to eliminate or combine everyone else to fit into your agenda. I know in "Dick's World" this will be hard to accept but believe it or not, not everyone wants to race a red big block Camaro. My offer still stands, are you man enough? Jim

Slow race cars make the experience last longer!

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Jim, I posted the apology two days ago on SuperstockForum while Class racer was down. I repeated it in one of my posts here and mean it sincerely. You and I have much in common. You feel strongly and so do I that Class winners ARE the S and SS racers. Having no car today I have no axe to grind with any class or combination. I seek no benefit for me. I just tend to ask questions when I see things going astray. Fastest 128 cars at indy is a decision I question as astray of what S and SS class racing is all about.See we have something we agree on. Now as for Dicks World I imagine you have missed the point of this too. I feel that class is where S and SS is supposed to be raced. Eliminator is fine but.... Only if you win class. Many older racers came to S and SS to race Class. Now Bracket racers are present more and more and with the massive numbers of classes dividing up the other racers it makes Class racing gradually decrease in importance. Hence the Indy rule. Drag Racing has a place for everyone to enter and enjoy and I respect each I just dont want Class Racing to be sacrificed in the process. Your Thoughts?
Jim I missed the offer? Man enough? Point out your offer Thanks...

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Heres a Idea, I may have had too many beers today but here we go ....

Leave the Class structure as is, Qualify as usual, Then Run heads up off of the index with no break out. Heres the Kicker the bottom qualifier runs the car above him/her and so on and so on. This would make for tight races as you progress rounds faster cars under the index would advance unless they were a few hundredths faster and got beat on the tree....

What about sandbaggers Pay the money and the contigency to qualifiers put Dollars in the performance catagory by paying for qualifing spot and then pay a token 25 Bucks a round in eliminations.No Dial ins No breakouts just the guy with the fastest car winning rounds if the driver doesnt get treed Number one qualifier hauls in the Big Cash. Wallets may win but if you put the cash in Performance and the Glory in the eliminator win..Not a bracket race anymore and I would have to get out the wrenches..LOL.

I looked at aold qualifier sheet and if you ran this program most of the first round races could be won by a quick driver on the tree. If you want the big money tune it up and qualify in the top of the field. Small money for going rounds,,

Got to go my Beer is getting warm....

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Thanks, I still couldn t find the offer. So many anti Dick Butler posts I couldnt find it.Driving a car is always a great experience. ......The part I really enjoy is racing in a class with 10 or so cars and the heads up class racing. Eliminator is fine too.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick, second page of this thread, third post down, I said:

"I challenge you to come to the Southern S/SS Assn. race in Reynolds next week and I will put you behind the wheel of my AF/S SRT4 Neon FWD Stocker. If after you make a pass or two you can honestly say it wasn't a "hoot" I will pay your air fare back home. Now don't worry, after 20 years of driving FWD race cars nobody has ever questioned the size of my penis so I doubt they they would question a big bad opinionated guy like you."

There you go, can we expect you for dinner Saturday night? Jim

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Dick if there are 10 cars in a class there are 9 "LOSERS".
I hope that there are a bunch of like minded racers at the races I attend.If losing is that much fun.
That has always been one of my problems, I allow myself to lose to easily.
"The guy I'm racing is a nice guy ETC. ETC." My partner Ray (Tex) Cook didn't care who was in the next lane he wanted to beat him anyway anyhow.
When I ran the fwd stocker I just wanted to win class I couldn't have cared less about the eliminator. But that was me. And as far as qualifying goes. I could have been number one almost anytime I wanted. So I was in the program.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

Art,
Using your same thoughts wouldnt it be worse if no possible chance to be the one in 10 to win and instead you were only given a chance to be one of the 127 losers in Eliminations. I support Class and Class winners in eliminations as one of the "Prizes" given for winning class.
Thanks

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

SS/JA and Jim and ART,
I would love a chance to drive a car again. Might do it some time but. The topic is not "does a FWD car create fun"?, It is not" will Dick Butler think they are fun?" They are class cars so we give them credit for being fun.
The topic was started to discuss ALL S and SS classes and cars. ART and Jim have picked out one word(FWD) in the question and chosen to make themselves miserable misinterpreting the question and posting negative comments.
The question is Not about them or their cars.They have Chosen to take the question that way.My driving Jims car or not driving is not the issue. It is an attempt to change the question rather than constructively discussing the question. Fun is a given.
I hope they will re enter the discussion of numbers of classes without fear for their own choice but with the goal of helping make it better for everyone who supports Class Racing.

Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?
 

All I can say is Thanks for the offer....I know it would have been fun. Besides we do have a family Birthday to attend this week end....One of Brians children is 13....