to all 85-92 efi racers
 

There is still time to save the 350 245/260 combo.But it needs lots of help.Some racers keep getting us flagged??????????????????? If my math is correct K/SA is over,J/SA is ok andI/SA is on the edge.We need two or three slowwwwwwwwwww runs at national events to save our tail.

Thank You
Cecil Frazier
Stock 1137

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Nice job with your politicking! LOL
Maybe I should write your name in on the upcoming ballot???

They way that thing runs, I was certain it was a 454

Hope you and Kerri are doing well?

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Crawl back under your rock.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

I think the 88 through 92 350 TPI's are overdue for some horsepower. These combos race against the smaller and weaker 305s with smaller cams and valves. In 85, for example, there are three 305 factored at 258 and 263 hp. The 350 is factored at only 260 hp so it's not surprising that they will run faster that the 305. It's not fair for the guys with the 305s that got hit with a lot of hp before the 350 TPIs were running. This is a performance class so don't sand-bag all season. Just accept a few extra hp and run it in the next class up. :)

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Ed doesn't have to worry !! His old Buick barely runs the index on a good day !!
He makes one NHRA race a year at Noble........ :-)

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Its about time this under factored 350 gets hit........... You know it Cecil you can't protect everything. Our little 305 has been beat on by bull**** scales ( Brandon woods) 10 hp, didn't know it was going to run that fast (Brandon woods) 10 hp and Mr. Rowe and Mr. Reid just doing what Cecil's guys are doing. I can't believe NHRA has not done something about this combo earlier...... Lets see the boys with the 350s are rated at 260, the guys with a 305 carb are 263 and my combo 305 fi 258!!!! OK I think I'm seeing it clearly the 350 should get 10 off... Look at your junior stock runs off last year Cecil you were going 10.70's? Come on thats at g weight aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh 1.50 under

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

ED--Call Kenne Bell,he knows some OLD tricks for an OLD buick :cool:

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

hell all Ed is doing is keeping the buick racers from getting hit....they must pay him to race the one race a year to lower the average...

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

So If ED raced a full schedule,buicks would never get hit? :eek:

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Maybe more time off the keyboard might get you off the bottom of the list.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

maybe between atco/richmond/dutchclassic we can give it 20hp that should make you guys happy

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Gene that's funny.. I could give two ****s what happens... I love when people walk a round with there heads high with a soft combo!!! Its great. But Gene I don't think that is you!! I see you as a humble man you are just racing your car, that's great that's what we all do. Adding weight to our cars because of other peoples infractions is what we do. So Doug why would i want to spend 15000 freaking dollars on a motor to let someone else put me back on the bottom? hummmmmmmmmmmmmm that must be the difference between my RED camaro and your b l a ck camaro!!!!!! I like RED it stands out over the black.... HOLLA

Doug if you were just picking on Edd he is just a dirty old pillow biting Santa

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Hang in there Ed... I think your finally getting to them...

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

bite that pillow Ed, bite it reaaalll good.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Keith
Now Tell Them What You Really Think!!
Hee-Hee-Hee!!

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Eds a tough guy--The real question is--Whats his real name, and are old buicks that slow or has nhra put too many ponies on his old combo :confused:

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

No infractions....they worked hard and they are going fast. Try and keep up.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Edd why did you choke in Oklahoma. YOU talk on the computer but you kiss *** in person.. Its getting close to that season go get your bottle and your dirty red suit. Maybe that Buick would run better with Rudolf driving..... lol

Santa for Christmas I would like a " A FREE PAIR ON KNEE PADS".....

You are a **** talking weirdo

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

That was directed to Ed, no one else Keith. I don't worry about other combos too much, just hope mine can run with them lol.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

May I suggest ED has been around or wants to be around the chipendales and stray monkies==some never seek help--Ed call the san fransisco hot line for RFKP--Racers for knee pads--they will help you--You have a nicer day :p

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

OOPS.......Ed is upset !! WATCH OUT he might whip out the Mopar FWD TURBO FOUR BANGER for Noble !!
If he can keep CV joints or axles in it !! :-)
What they need on those turbo cars is a tell tale guage to see if they are turning up the boost !! The sportscar road racers have them !! Why not NHRA ??? :-)

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Ed, he's NOT "pretty".....

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

John,
Help me understand something here. I don't care how much more duration your cam is over stock. I don't care how much more than stock valve spring you run. I don't care who's aftermarket non-stock aluminum heads you have. I don't care how big your fuel injectors are. I don't care how you set the screws on your carburetor. Why do you care how much boost I choose to run? If the factory didn't want them to be adjustable they wouldn't have put the "screw" on them now would they? Get over it! Jim

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

John How about making you run the factory cam ? stock exhaust manifolds,the factory final drive ratio, I think the biggest thing that the factory put in anything was about 4.11. And let us not mention the $5000 cylinder heads.
If the RWD cars changed back to those things the boost control would not be a bad thing.

And PS I never broke a cv joint or an axle. I know how to avoid those problems.

And ABOVE ALL don't lump all FWD racers in with "ED"

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

On Dancer and Prancer

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Sorry folks but I had to ban Ed for two weeks. He was not banned for his usual charming wit, but for obscenity. Its one thing to call members wimps, but he has gone over the line this time. I also had to remove the post in question.

In the past I have been very lenient when it comes to members expressing there opinion about other members. It will be my call, but I will no longer tolerate members verbally abusing other members. You can express your dissatisfaction with other members, but I ask members to please do it with out threats or obscenities.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

I hate Ed getting banned for two weeks.

I really enjoy seeing how he can get so many bowels in an uproar.
I can't believe how many he can get to.
These guys play right into his hand.

Tone it down a little Ed so you don't get in trouble. You will still make your point. Loud & clear.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Finally Geno's secret is out!
It's the Chuck Taylors and Gargoyls!
LOL

"Beam me up Scotty"

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

hey cecil

give me a shout on my cell. 214-926-3913

thanks kevin scott
4116
div.4

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

As I recall on my '87 Daytona Shelby Z, the factory computer limited boost output. The Shelby Z was set to 12 PSI with a peak of 14 PSI and then only for brief intervals as it was an intercooled engine. The more common Turbo I engines (non-intercooled engines) peaked, I believe, at 8 PSI and 10 PSI max for brief intervals. These "high peaks" are for "passing manuvers" and not for sustained operation. Sure there are ways to by-pass it but the factory does set limitations. Otherwise everybody would start fiddling with the adjustments and there would be warranty engine claims all day long.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

I also believe the ever popular rochester quadrajets were limited to about 550 cfm`s after 1974 do to emission standards. The top air door would only open about half way.....maybee we should enforce that too ?? You guys that cry about turbo cars should try competing with one....If you did, I think you feel sorry for us..........Sue, we can qualify well, but try to go rounds.......

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Maybe if they only want to race to 1000' they ought to try nitro. I'm always told if I don't like shoe polish to try Comp. Well if you sandbaggers want to race to 1000' try nitro.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Neil, you are my TURBO HERO. I am getting first hand experience with the inconsistency you speak of.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

give me a call sometime, Larry.....I can tell you all i`ve learned in about 3 minutes....Neil 623-846-1375

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Jim Wahl asks...

"Help me understand something here."

John didn't answer any of this, so, I'd like to try, point-by-point.

>>>>I don't care how much more duration your cam is over stock.

And, you shouldn't care. Cam duration is not a factor, since the NHRA decided to open up the stock cam duration rule in the mid-eighties, and let anyone run any duration they choose, INCLUDING turbo cars. No point here...

>>>> I don't care how much more than stock valve spring you run.
Valve springs were part of the unlimited cam duration package that NHRA introduced about 1985. Any spring presure is legal, INCLUDING any valve springs on turbo cars, so, again, there's no point, here.

>>>>I don't care who's aftermarket non-stock aluminum heads you have.
NHRA cares, and assess increased "factored" horsepower for racers who attach them to their engines. It's not an upgrade that NHRA hasn't looked at and added horsepower to, if you choose to run them. No freebie, and no point, here.

>>>> I don't care how big your fuel injectors are.
I am not familiar with NHRA's rules regarding fuel injectors, so I don't have an answer for this one, except to say that I'd imagine that stock "pound" fuel injectors are probably required in a Stock class. Also, nearly all turbo cars are injected, so whatever the normally-aspirated cars are using, that upgrade should be available to a turbo competitor, too. You MIGHT have a point here; I don't actually know.

>>>>I don't care how you set the screws on your carburetor.
As far as I know, "setting screws," adjusting the mixture, (or secondary opening rate?) has no effect on performance beyond normal tuning, which has always been legal, practically, since day one. No point, here, either, that I can see...


>>>>Why do you care how much boost I choose to run?
That's like asking, "Why do you care how many cubic inches I run," because boost is simply a way of putting more air through an engine, making an engine produce power like it is larger than it really is.

Boost is measured, usually, in pounds per square inch, though there are several other ways it is described ("bar," "atmospheres," etc...)

Generally speaking, increasing the amount of boost on any given engine will result in an increase in the power output. That's why turbos and superchargers exist, to put more air through an engine, so more fuel can be burned in the same amount of time, resulting in a power increase.

If it's such a non-issue, why would YOU, Jim, care if NHRA chose to monitor the amount of boost you run???

When an engine is dyno'd at the favtory, the SAE sets standards for all sorts of conditions, such as air inlet temperature, exhaust system specifications, coolant temperature, etc., etc., etc... correcting things they can't control, such as barometric pressure, to a set, predetermined standard.

If the engine is using forced induction, the amount of what we call "boost" is a part of that set of specifications. It is a critical parameter, because if it is increased, the reasonable expectation is that the power will increase. Lower it, and power will usually go down, all other things being equal.

More power will almost always lower the e.t. of a Stock-Class drag car.
And, to a large extent, increased boost = increased power.

The horsepower figures that the factories supply NHRA with are based on those manufacturers' dyno tests, and at prescribed boost levels on forced induction engines.

Once they have the factory numbers, NHRA then assigns a factored horsepower to the engines in question that may vary from the factory horsepower, but not always. The '"wonderful" AHFS system supposedly takes care of any "mistakes" made by the NHRA Tech Dept. in assigning factored horsepower. Riiiiiiiight...

But, the "original, factory horespower information system" only works for forced induction cars, in practice, if engine output is is SOMEWHAT restricted by an adherence to the factory figures for boost levels. Anyone with a piece of baling wire can disable a waste gate on a turbo car and pick up power, maybe a little; maybe a lot... I'm sure it varies from car-to-car.


Here's the rub. Yes, normally-aspirated cars have TONS of options available (and we all know what they are), to go about increasing horsepower, even though they're running in a "stock" class. Cam duration, multi-angle valve jobs, heavy-duty valve springs, lots of RPM's, trick ring setups, and a whole host of power-creating "tricks" can raise the horsepower level of a "stock", normally-aspirated motor to sometimes half-again its factor (and doubtless, even more, in some cases.)

Thing is, the turbo cars have ALL OF THE SAME OPTIONS....

So, where is the problem with (unauthorized) increased boost?

When the intake valve opens on a normally-aspirated engine, all other things being equal, there's only one thing filling that cylinder when the piston makes its trip to the bottom:
ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE

When that engine was dyno'd at the factory, to get the number that NHRA was supplied with, an SAE standard having to do with barometric pressure was included in the mix to come up with the specific output for that motor. Now, a similar operation was going on with a turbocharged motor, the only difference being it was tested under boosted conditions. Let's say its rating was 300 HP at 10 pounds of boost

Now, NHRA gets the figures for both of those engines and doesn't change either engine's "factor," with both going into the Class. Guide at their original, factory rating.

In qualifying, the guy with the normally-aspirated car does okay.. let's say he qualifies at #10.
The guy with the turbo motor, in at #4 wants a better number, so, he modifies his waste gate to allow 14 pounds of boost. His car instantly picks up another 25, or so, horsepower, and he goes to number one...

I realize that this is a gross over-simplification, but the idea is this:
The guy with the tuurbo car has EVERY OPTION afforded the normally-aspirated car, to make his car faster, PLUS, possibly one the normally-aspirated car does NOT have: BOOST INCREASE.


No matter WHAT the normaly-aspirated car owner does to make his car faster, he still has one, critical, underlying limit on how much air he can put through his engine; HE CANNOT INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE AVAILABLE TO FILL THE CYLINDER. This is, for the sake of argument, ignoring gains from ram-tuning the intake, which is not much of an option on most Stockers.

The turbo car can increase the available cylinder-filling pressure at the intake valve, if the boost is increased. Upping the boost pressure (all other things being equal) has a dramatic effect on how much air is put through the engine, It can make the difference between a so-so car and a "killer."

If you will check out the number of #1 nat'l event qualifiers in Stock for the last four years, you will find an inordinate amount of turbo cars qualifying number one. I think there was something like over 20-percent of national events in that time frame that had a turbocharged car as the #1 qualifier, although the number of thrbocharged cars actually racing was probably something around a tenth of that.

Something is very wrong with that picture.

Having said that, I would advocate the use of a a telltale boost gauge for turbo and supercharged cars, like the ones that are being used in some road-race organizations to monitor maximum boost. When a car comes in for his weight/fuel check, the Tech could simply look at the gauge and check a list of boost specs for forced induction cars to verify legality. He wouldn't have to be an expert in turbos to check the legality of the operation. That might do something to eradicate this lopsided qualifying situation.

In defense of this opinion (and it's JUST my opinion... nothing more,) I'd like to say that GENERALLY SPEAKING, boost is a measure of how efficient/inefficient an engine is, in using its air. If you have a poor cylinder head on an engine, are running 10 pounds of boost, and change out that head for a cnc-ported one with bigger valves, the boost number is likely to fall, because the restriction is gone (to a degree.)

So, on a Stocker, replacing the breathing systems (cam, headers, etc) with better-breathing parts won't necessarily result in an increased boost figure. In fact, I believe just the opposite would be true.

Someone correct me if I am wrong about that. Neil?

I KNOW that turbo cars are very difficult to dial. I don't know what the answer is to that, but it seems to me that aside from that, the qualifying problem needs to be addressed.

Too many conventional (normally-aspirated) race cars that have had myriad hours spent on R & D, with years of meticulous preparation, being shuffled into 2nd place in qualifying, by a turbo car that is boosted (in all probability) beyonf factory specs.

It's not that hard to fix...

Hope this answers some of your questions, Jim... I realize that at least 90 percent of what I said is not "news" to 90 percent of the people reading this, but you asked...

Just my usual cent-and-a-half....

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

All points are correct Bill except one item which I don't believe is a factor but to be fair...FWD & trucks allowed cam lift of .430" or OEM lift whichever is greater. FYI: NHRA does not regulate injector size. It is looked at as a carb jet or metering rods; no restrictions.
And when the boost drops due to better airflow you simply increase the boost to compensate. Whala! More power!
All the turbo stocker racers have really missed the boat on consistancy. The "trick" is running a manual trans.

Back to the original topic...If the 350 TPI is 260 HP and the 305's of similar configuration and same class are +/- 2 HP or so, I could EASILY justify a 55 HP increase or nearly 315 HP factored. How? All else being equal except 45 cubic inches. A stocker should EASILY make 1.25 HP per CID...45 x 1.25 = 56 added to present 260 HP = 316. Heck, even a pathetic .75 x 45 = 33 HP. Obviously there is a lot of sand bagging here...

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Thanks, Jeff, for the correction(s).

You got my point about the situation wherein as (turvo) engine efficiencey RE airflow through the engine with better breathing due to cam, headers, etc., the boost numbers would actually decline, rather than increase, so mods to increase power should not push a stock turbo setup into "illegal" territory on a telltale bosst gauge. Lots more power is available at the lowered boost levels.

I didn't realize that consistency was enhanced in these cars by using a manual transmission.

Why is that?

Thanks for any information, and for your thoughts on this...

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Jeff, with all due respect:

Would you justify your HP increase knowing the throttle body, upper and lower plenums as well as runners are exactly same for both the 305 and 350.
Essentially the same carburetor. Don't actually know but common sense tells me the carb and intake found on a 305 might be smaller than that found on a 350.

How does the additional 45 cu. in. factor in when both have approximately the same available airflow to the intake runner and valve.
Then also factor in that the intake system is better matched to the 305.

It may need some HP but 30 plus??

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Jeff
The intakes on the 305 and 350 TPIs are the same and the 350 TPI should be rated at more HP than the 305. But I think that calculating hp only based on the engine size is not correct. Although it would make things easier, NHRA factors these engines based on power output and not displacement. Also, the horsepower is based on factory engine output then it increases (or sometimes decreases) as NHRA attempts to equalize the playing field for all stocker engines. It's not based on what a built stocker engine should be able to put out. From reading some of these post, some stock racers keep their car's HP figures a closely guarded secret.
Also, can you explain why Manual Transmission consistency is better with a Turbo I can't figure that out. My only guess is that it has a narrower power band and more gears will keep it in its power band.

Fred

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Your guess is correct.