180 hp Caddy Motor
 

I just saw the 180 hp caddy motor got hit with hp again in ss/ gt now up to 220. Has any other SS motor been hit 40 hp in a just over a year. Not trying to slam anyone but that has to be some kind of record.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Our 86 C-10 262 cid got 30 hp in a year. Not quite 40, but close. Plus it started in a 20lb/hp class and went to a 18 lb/hp. Index dropped 1.500 seconds and added 400 lbs.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

<<<"Has any other SS motor been hit 40 hp in a just over a year."<<<

Totally aside from WHO runs this combo (that's not my point at all), wouldn't you think that the guy or guys who assign these original horsepower factors would be totally embarrassed to have it demonstrated so graphically, that they have NO IDEA what they're doing?


I'd be ashamed...

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Allowing that combination to be run at 180 HP was rediculous in the first place.

Boob Lang and the rest should be ashamed of themselves.

Almost as negligent as the 260 four barrel and 67 Shelby.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Bill;
Now you finally hit a subject that needs to be addressed by the nimrods out in Calif.But nah,they're too busy figuring out how to scam us for more $$ to make up the shortfall coming in the pro ranks.Lets see this thread go 10 plus pages.
It seems certain combos are allowed to linger on the edge of HP with no look see.I dont blame the crafty guys who run these combos,it's the laziness of
Glendora to do their job.Check et/mph and let the tech guys do what they get paid to do without meddling from the main office.

Ed F.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

stocker version is what made SS guys take notice...

but bob shaw has been good and only got it hit twice... balls though he was dailed -1.37 at indy :)

caddy rule

jack... i cant even get close

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Just some random thoughts. (probably not worth .02) :~)
I was always been under the assumption the original factor was based on the factory rated HP. Then when someone hammers, or works, the AHFS the factors move.
Just because a factory underrates an engine is NOT the fault of you so called "Nimrods"
Let's face it.... There are certain combinations that start out factory underrated that respond well to the changes allowed in Stock & Super Stock. For whatever reason, Some have big induction, decent heads & a small cam. Others have the same with a poor set of Ex manifolds. So, when the NHRA allowed changes take place a precieved slug comes alive. A sleeper suddenly wakes up. Who knows why a Caddy had a 180 Hp engine? Could GM have made it that way so all the grey haired old ladies buying those Caddys thought they got good gas mileage. Probably had to do with the original marketing approach of the times. Looks like the system is working when a combo gets hit as hard as the Caddy engine. The hard working guys that have studied the system & used it to their advantage are just reaping the results. Running fast, qualifying high & adding HP to the combo.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Good call by Adger. This is same premise when people complain when new cars, such as the Roush Mustangs were added to the classification list. The AHFS will catch up with them eventually.

This particular Olds EFI engine used in the Cadillac, was a dog as an OEM street car. It had many problems related to the ECM and the HP factor from the manufacturer was correct. However, lets take this same engine, built under the current rules were you are allowed an aftermarket ECM and ignition, and other modifications, then you have a performer.

So, for smart people like Real Racer, why don't you tell NHRA how they should factor a new combination when they do not have a baseline to start from and all they have is the OEM HP?

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Adger;
Explain to me how a 40 year old combo still has to shut it down at 1000' if the AHFS should catch up to correct h.p..

Ed F.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

How do you know he shuts down at 1000'? Where does the rules say you cannot lift?

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Duh,the mph doesn't go with the et.

Ed F.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Well, when you have a basic engine like the Olds 350 that has been flogged for YEARS by racers, you (as an NHRA Tech) should be able to look at the factored HP it has accrued over the years, to see what the potential of that engine might be, minus the 4bbl, better compression ratio, and better intake manifold that is absent on the Caddy F.I. version.

Then, you'd have a little better idea of its potential than just "buying" the factory rating to begin with.

NHRA sure didn't waste any time adding horsepower to the "NASCAR Hemi" before ANYBODY ever put one on the strip. They're usually not shy about that sort of thing.

As far as waiting for the AHFS to take care of the problem, sometimes, you're in for a L-O-N-G WAIT...

I still think they could do a better job in cases like this. Do they live in a cave???

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Not enough of them have been run over the 40 years to make the index/HP factor get in line with other combos that have been run to death. This is nothing new. The same thing has been going on since the inception of Class Racing. In the old days Guys, as one example Ralph Truppi, Searched the classification guides for the combos that could be the next killer combo. You know what I mean, Killer. Have an advantage that was Perceived or real. I've been told it was like a past time to him, spent many hours reading & searching. At that time it was up to Farmer & his HP committies to stay ahead of the game & keep the HP factors in line. In the old days you could just get a hit "Because" or It looks too soft. Now it is up to the AHFS & the data put in it by real runs. It's all the same game. We Just have computers involved in it now & the human element is deminished. They help in gathering & keeping data. They also provide us with the internet where we can keep track of & complain (or talk) about everything. When this soft Olds/Caddy combo is hammered down the players will move on to something else. I can assure you the guys that are good at this are already looking at the next killer combo. To make that point, a little bird named Bob told me about the Caddy combo @ Ennis almost 3 years ago. So now we can all sit in the shade & let these un adjusted combos bask in the sunlight of glory while we wait for the next one or two to come along. This cycle will continue untill class racing comes to an end.

Oops, This is Adger posting on Bob's sign in....

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

And there are others just like it out there if you care to dig and aren't too proud to race the body they came in and the class they fall in. Jack Mullins offered to tell me a combination 25 years ago that would be a number one qualifier. But it was an R/SA and I had too much ego to race a car that slow and an automatic to boot. "You pays your money and you makes your choice." Incidentally, that combination is still there and nobody has ever built one that I know of.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Still waiting for an answer............................................ .................................................. ...........

Ed F.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

You are correct in a way, however, the way the speed is measured from the ET is done with separate photo cells. This is an excerpt from the NHRA Website section called:"Drag Racing 101 - Drag Racing Made Easy":

"Two Separate performances are monitored for each run: elapsed time and speed. Upon leaving the staging beams, each vehicle activates an elapsed-time clock, which is stopped when that vehicle reaches the finish line. The start-to-finish clocking is the vehicle's elapsed time (e.t.), which serves to measure performance. Speed is measured in a 66-foot "speed trap" that ends at the finish line. Each lane is timed independently."

Since you can scrub MPH at the last moment; the E.T. and the weight of the car at the scales after the pass, should be the real indicator. There are many out there that are running way more than the class minimum; therefore, when they get hit with horsepower, all they do is remove weight to stay at the top.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Thank you. You got ahead of me.That was the next phase.Those two parameters would begin flags waving.But I guess Nat'l tech has other things to do.

Ed F.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Yeah, Ed, they're busy checking the "telltale" needles on the NHRA-supplied BOOST gauges on the many turbocharged cars... That takes, oh... 30 seconds, or so... LOL!

Could NOT resist.... sorry. (I don't know when I'm well-off...) :(

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

ED,
You posted:
Duh,the mph doesn't go with the et.

Isn't it true that a car that slips off the starting line will have a low ET & high MPH?
Could it be some racers make or buy more hp than their set up will handle?
Or are they running throttle stops? :~)

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Adger;
The MPH discreptancy is more that the effect of tire spin.Watch A,B,C cars get alot of air and if it's known
it's a fast day look at the mph.Over bloated weigh ins is another reason.You must be having a senior moment,name me a car in S/SS using a throttle stop.Can't argue about the money part though.There are some guys with more money than brains.

Ed

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Ok, not a senior moment. My car can & has been run in SS with a throttle stop,and will probably be in the future. Not quite as sofisticated as those in .90 classes, but still holds the carb from going W/O. I set a couple of records that way to keep from busting index. Can you say It's all about cable travel. Leaves soft, helps with lights & is very consistant when set up right. It is easy to pick your spot in qualifying. I also know of racers that use the shift points to determin ET, or lack of it. That is one of the best for some combos & might even be used by some of the well known touring sportsman racers. I have even listened to racers talk about running it up to a pre determined high gear RPM. That is another way to hurt MPH You hit the nail on the head with the weight issue too... Lots of ways to run the ET you want, just which one works best for you & your combo.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Adger;
That's exactly why the AHFS as it's configured wont work.Crafty racers and a lax tech policy assure the AHFS will be a study in futility.

Ed

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

Ed,
I know! EXACTLY!!! The crafty racer is why every system man can devise will be manipulated. Even the way Farmer did it with the HP committees was unable to administer the HP & indexes in a completely fair manner.(add the human element) I agree, it isn't a perfect system, but it's what we have to work with. Take my situation. I run in 2 classes that are populated by a hand full of cars. The system is unfair to me because I can go fast. It is also unfair to the few guys that aren't as fast because my numbers can dominate. In a situation like this the system with 1 fast guy can ruin classes for many other racers. That does nothing for bringing in new competitors to replace those leaving or build the class. In fact I've already seen others leave the classes. That is why when I'm racing I'm always in tune to what is going on with the AHFS. I actually care about what I do to the classes & racers. Why should I have a bad ego trip & the results hit someone else in the pocket book? Now that I've said that watch me do something stupid at the next race I attend...Disclaimer: Up dated, fresh engine & improvememts in the drive line & no testing = something stupid on first run. :~)

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

I agree with Adger. I also respect Adger for his performance with standard parts and his hard work. On the other hand, in addition to what Adger stated, there is a problem with some of the parts allowed in many of what I callf the "runaway" cars.

I consider it a BIG problem in the Modified classes in SS. One single racer, that has the $$$, can get control of the class in any manner he wants. I have brought up this with NHRA and it has fallen in deaf ears. I do not have a problem when the racer uses what I call "standard" available parts. I have a problem with what I call the use of "exotic" parts. I cannot see the premise of using a part just because it is available in the manufacturers performance catalog. If this is the case, the should allow the use of the other parts such as DRCE blocks in Modified class.

IThere is a need to incorporate controls in the class in the way of components and parts used. One example is the use of the Aurora block, which I feel it does not belong in the Modified classes. The Aurora race block does not even come close to a Chevy block other than you can fit a Chevy small block crankshaft. The Aurora block needs a special adapter for the starter and bellhousing. Then when you add a Proflite, you got two adapters in the bellhousing to allow the use of the block. It also has an unusual short deck and allows the use of a 60mm camshaft core. The Aurora block is worth 60~80 HP on the dyno. However, by the time you have a race ready Aurora block, you have invested at least 6 to 8K on the block alone. My premise is that if you want to run the Aurora block, go to Comp. I can forsee one of these days, someone showing up in the class with an R08 block and telling NHRA they will sue if they get tossed.

To get costs down and reduce the runaway racers that hurt the class, there should be restrictions on the parts allowed, keeping the exotic parts out of the class. How hard it would be for NHRA to put a list of allowed cylinder heads and blocks allowed in the class?

Just my $0.05.

Re: 180 hp Caddy Motor
 

The answer to your question is: A lawyer.