Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Had a debate with one of my SS AMX buddies tonight. He disagreed with me and I said I would throw it out for discussion. I say with the SS/GT rules (1980 and older vehicles allowed), you can take a factory & NHRA / IHRA approved SS car from the 60's which had unique factory hood scoops (T-Bolt tear-drop, SS/AMX, HEMI A-Body, etc.) and run any SS/GT allowable engine. So you could have a T-Bolt car with a 289, a SS/AMX with a 290 and a '68 Hemi Dart / Barracuda with a 273 as examples. Assuming of course the materials of the scoop were correct as allowable.
And that leads to items like light-weight glass, seats, etc., the entire SS package other than a different engine.
I think there are some pretty cool ideas that can spring from this.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

If the engine came with a scoop you get to run it open if it didn't come with the scoop you still run it but it has to be blocked off. That's what I was told anyway.
Merry Christmas

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Jeff, I understand it to be as Jeremy said. A '90's Firebird in SS/JA can use the ram air. A '90's Firebird as a SS/GT car can have the scoop/ram-air, but must be non-functional (blocked off). I could be wrong, but that was how I understood it. Maybe someone that has had a car like this, and switched between S/S and GT (Angelo Ditocco comes to mind) can answer this for sure.

B.D.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Mike & Jeremy are both correct (to the best of my recollection) - it really is more determined by the engine combo that is used.

When you mix & match bodies and engine combos in SS/GT you have several possible scenarios

You can have a body (like a late model firebird) that came with a ram-air hood.... matched with an engine combo that "was not" available with any sort of scoop or fresh air system. In this case, the fresh air system is supposed to be blocked off.

Again you can have a body (like a late model firebird) that came with a ram-air hood.... matched with an engine combo that "was" available with a hood scoop or fresh air system. In this case, the fresh air system could be left open.

Obviously when a body that was not available or produced with any type of ram air system is used it doesn't come into play, regardless of whether or not you use an engine that did have a fresh air system, you can't add anything to the car, you are stuck with what you've got.

Hope that helps

Mike good to see your still at it.... hope all is well

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Jeff
Talked with Bruce Bachelder at the Southern Nationals (or whatever they call it now) and what the replys above have stated are true. The engine must have come with fresh air to run with the scoop open. Not sure that rule is being enforced in all divisions the same.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I recently had this conversation with glendora and was told that if the original body used came with a scoop that it could remain regardless of engine combination when used in GT classes.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I'll show up with a closed scoop and you show up with a open scoop running a non-ram air engine. We'll see who gets to race! You might want to call Glendora again and this time talk with someone other than the secretary.

PS Would you please tell us who gave you the info? Finally we may be able to expose who is giving wrong answers to Stock-S/S questions.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Supersport, I talked to a gentleman named Pat, I'm not sure what his position there is? but i'm pretty sure he's not the secretary.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Pat is the tech person @ NHRA.

I tend to look at it this way. If a car like an SS/AMX or Hemi Dart / Barracuda has a scoop attached to the hood it is part of the body. Obviously that body is part of an engine / body package (in these cases you had to buy a 390 X-Ram or X-Ram Hemi engines). But the end result is a open hood sccop on these type of cars was a body part. If you needed a new one in 1969 you ordered the part from the body section of the parts book.
Now if you have something like a '69-'70 Mustang or '70-'71 Barracuda / Challenger shaker hood assembly, that ram-air part is affixed to the engine and is part of that engine (offered in these examples on many engines).
I see the difficulty in the allowance of a GT class but that is what NHRA implemented.
My friend has a '69 AMX with a 290. I say he should be allowed to cross from SS to SS/GT and use a factory (steel) SS scoop. Presented as a body part, I can't see how NHRA can say no.
It get's really interesting when you look at all the trick body / interior parts of a '68 Hemi A-body!

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

OK, on this same vain, would or is the fiberglass hood scoop off
a 1973/74 Dodge Dart legal for a same year Plymouth Duster??

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Here is a qualifying effort from Jim Hale's 68 Barracuda (Original Hemi with scoop and lightweights) and a 383 engine.

22 4406 GT/EA Jim Hale, Van Buren AR, '68 Barracuda 10.143 10.95 -0.807

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I would say definetly not. That would be cross-breeding of body parts.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Know which 383 that is? I would like to see a '62 383/343 2x4 in a Hemi A-body with all the lite-weight parts and open scoop. Think of a 383 with a full sized tunnel ram in SS!
I still say the open scoop would be legal as the Hemi scoop was an open scoop body part as an OEM piece.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Jeff, If infact you had a 68 hemi car and had to tape over the scoop, then why would you want a big ol' scoop sticking up? If you were to remove it, would you then have to replace all the liteweight seats and glass and such?
I'm with you though. If you run the hemi body and shipping weight, then you ought to be able to run it the way it came.
Doesn't matter what we say or think anyway. They're gonna do any GD thing they want with the rules.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I'm real sure he runs the 1967 383 combo and that the scoop is open.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I would think if part of an OEM body package it should be all or nothing. But then again, if somebody wanted to build a clone '68 Hemi A-body for SS, NHRA probably woudn't care if you had the lite-weight parts as you would only be placing yourself at a disadvantage.

So out of curiousity what weight / class would a 273/235 fall into using a Hemi A-Body?

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Without looking it up ,I'd say 13 # ....whatever that is. GT/L?

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

One good reason for the scoop would be carb clearance, this would be a good thing if running the 1962 343horse 383 combo with a tunnel ram. I'm still waiting to see that one! It would have to be fast with those two carbs.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Could that be a 70 383 claimed as a Challenger or Cuda with fresh air ?

How about a 340 6pk motor, it had fresh air.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I can see where there could be some confusion. When the NHRA opened up the GT rule a year or two ago, they allow any year body to be run as a GT class car if a different year or different from "factory equipped" engine combo was used. Prior to that change, the rule stated that the body of a GT car had to be 1980 or newer. Now it is any year, although I have only noticed a few instances where this was applied and an older body was used in GT. I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone will see something like a 68 Hemi-Cuda body with a different engine, run as a GT car. If someone did though, they would have to close up the hood scoop if the motor they used did not originally come with a fresh air system.

Happy Holidays to All !

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

It seems the combo's are unlimited. How about a 1963 Z-11 (Old Reliable) alum. front end Chebbie (real or cloned) with a 396/375 or a 454. Maybe a 283/220 for GT S/S since NHRA lists the Z-11 in the guide for S/S and a heavy duty rear would be legal. Lots of luck finding the Alum. parts. Just to show how the combos could become wild. No more nuts than a 68 Hemi Dart or 'Cuda with a 273 or a T-Bolt with a 289. How about a 60 Chevy wagon like Jack's stocker with an L-88 or ZL-1 engine combo? Then he could use a 3 speed auto without any grief from the tech dept. Then theres always a 64-65 GTO with the 421 SD engine or a 455 SD. A '66 Mustang with a Boss 429 Hemi (if it would fit). And some of you guys think IHRA's GT stock class is screwed up. Gezzzzzzzzzzz. LOL It sounds like "HEAVY" eliminator with engine spec. rules to me.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I haven't talked with Jim Hale in a while, however, he told me some time back that he was building a 383 Super Stock engine for his lightweight Barracuda. I am reasonably certain that the hood scoop on the Barracuda is functional. If it is required that "fresh air" be required on the replacement engine, one could simply claim a 69 - 70 Roadrunner. Both had "Air Grabbers". I do not believe that NHRA would make you close a hood scoop... As an example, I have a 69 Roadrunner with an Air Grabber. The HP rating is the same for a plain hood or the fresh air hood. However, their can be a different HP rating for the engine whether it is in Super Stock or GT. So, my suspicion is that the hood scoop will be allowed to be open, then HP adjustments will apply for GT classes.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

We will debut out GT/CthruFA (383 or 440 combo) which I have gotten OKed. It is a 68 Hemi cuda clone with the scoop and the glass. It is a recognized model in the books. Same as Jim Hale. Should not be an issue as we run a faster index or more hp that the same car in SS ie a 70 cuda with the 383 is .05 slower indes than my car with the 383. We have converted this Top Stock car to SS, and are doing the same with our 70 Duster.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Yes, open or not the key is carb and manifold clearance. A budget racer could take a 380 2x4 carb and use your basic Weind cast aluminum tunnel ram under one of these scoops. A lot less money than a sheet-metal tunnel ram; and possibly more effective. I would think the tall scoop would open up some new technology for the 6-pack 340/440 intake manifolds as well.

Looks like Teuton and Hale have the open scoop issue worked out with NHRA. Jeff, are you considering the 383/343? I guess a 440/375/350 engine would also be a killer. Guess you could even run a Weind/Edelbrock single 4bbl tunnel ram in that car, on any mopar engine.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Same deal for the 55-57 Chevy's. Theres room for a tunnel ram on any of the 350/327 engines in these cars and clear the hood as on the 265's they run now. How about a killer 318 or 360 for your AMX? Like I said the combinations are almost unlimited as long as the 8 lb. minimum for GT is met. I guess a 4000 + lb GT/A car with a race Hemi would be unreasonable.....lol.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

We have a 383 and a 440, and we might try a 440-6 in the future. We expect to test in 2 to 3 weeks

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I asked Bruce Bacheldor at the Finals in Pomona about running the 69 Corvette in GT with the L-88 hood. He said no on the hood! He didn't offer any reason and I didn't push it.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I was GOING to suggest that the rationale behind open or closed-off scoops would logically lay with the engine's original horsepower factor; if the engine was out of a car that had fresh air, then the factord HP rating would reflect that, and in a different chassis, then it would be legal with an open scoop (fresh air.) That made all kinds of sense to me. Anything else, and you're not being true to the original operational parameters that gave the engine that particular factor in the first place.

THEN, before I made a complete fool of myself by posting something that had a hint of logic to it, I decided to go and see how much factored HP difference there was in the so-called "Ram-Air" (fresh air) packages that used open scoops, and the ones that didn't (otherwise identical engines, like the early Cobra Jat Mustangs, some of which had "Ram Air".)

Guess what??? NO DIFFERENCE! At some point, NHRA has decided that a fresh air package is worth NOTHING in terms of factored horsepower... but, they stilll list the different (fresh air or no) combinations.... they just give them identical horsepower.

Admittedly, I only looked at a few examples, but it was obvious to me from what I saw, that NHRA had gone through the list and either cut the fresh air motors back to the closed-in, no scoop models' factored HP ratings, OR upped the rating on the no-scoop models to match the fresh air engines' factors.

I must not have been in class that day.... That phenomenon has come about totally without my having noticed it.

Beings that there's no difference in the ratings, why would they CARE which engines have operational fresh-air systems??? I can't imagine that they would.

So, this is one in which there IS no argument that I can see, that scoops that were on a car would have to be closed off, because as NHRA has shown us in their sacred Classification Guide, they aren't worth even ONE HORSEPOWER.... Check it out...

Admittedly, I didn't check them all, but I did look at several combinations that had both underhood air vs. fresh air, and all the ones I looked at had identical factors.

It is a mess...

Bill

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I believe NHRA use to have an automatic 5 HP factor for fresh air combos - '70's?

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Sorry Bill, that occured maybe 20 years ago? I'm not sure when but it was a LONG LONG time ago. It's a technicality as to when and why but I'm under the impression it was a result of 428 CJ racers changing hoods from flat (Q code) to shaker (R code) and NHRA seeing it didn't seem to affect performance one way or the other. I can only offer my own experiments on my '70 AMX. I was curious in D/S what the affects were. Sealing off the scoops (which probably aren't much more; if any, effective of something like a mopar / ford shaker), and even running with and without a K&N filter I found no ET one way or another and MAYBE as much as (point) .2 MPH. And that's on a 124-125 MPH stocker.
I'm sure a 145-150 MPH SS car like a SS Dart/Barracuda or SS/AMX would see different results but NHRA has, as Bill pointed out, set the bar across the board that it doesn't seem to matter.
I still contend the scoop is a body part not an engine part and if NHRA allows cars like Hale or Teuton (non-hemi in '68 hemi A-body SS/GT car), then it should be across the board. That would include the SS/AMX scoop and the L-88 Corvette scoop.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I havent read this whole thread but in repsonse to what Jeff just said, The 68 Dart/Cuda came with that car with a HEMI and a Scoop. Why wouldnt you be able to run it in SSGT. And that scoop on the AMX is a definite advantage but its there so whats the big deal.

Herb Jr

Terry your right it sounds like Heavy Elim.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Jeff,
Thanks for the info on that. What I fail to understand is, if there are NO HP changes with a fresh air system, then why not just delete the reference to it in the Class Guide? All it does is muddy the water, and it's plenty muddy already, what with the acceptance of aluminum aftermarket cylinder heads on otherwise STOCK engines, different factors for the SAME engine in different cars, the same engine with different transmissions etc.... Jeesh...

Obfuscation and confusion abounds... in an area where explicit information is critical. Amazing....

Bill

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Allowing ram air bodys with any engine sets one to thinking. When GM and Chrysler merge, the LS1 Chevy engine can be put in a 69 AMX factory racecar to run GT. Also look forward to the same engine in a 68 Barracuda/Dart hemi body. When looking at Fords, a 64 Thunderbolt with a 68 302 could run GT. Don’t forget about a LS1 in a Super Duty 62 Pontiac.

Yes sir, messing with the rules may give us some SS/GT cars that would cause even die hard class fans to quit paying to see.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I think an Omni with a 396 Alum Head motor would be way cool!!!! And speaking of Omni, in it's day we had a cheapie Omni that had about $200 markup. By the time the factory added the things to the invoice that the public doesn't see ( 3 additional gallons of fuel, handling, 25cents to print a Manufcturers Statement of Origin, etc), dealer cost was more than window sticker. A real deal there.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

I can`t speak for GM & MoPar, but I`m not aware of any of the Fords having different factory HP ratings between Ram Air, cold air, Shaker, whatever you want to call it. I`ve owned several factory "Shaker" equipped Mustangs, 69 & 70 R code 428 , and 70 351 Cleveland 4 barrel, the factory ratings were 300 for the 351, and 335 for the 428`s, same as the non Shaker cars. Same with my 69 Fairlane Cobras, 335 with or without Ram Air. However, in the 70`s, until the early 80`s, NHRA added 5 additional HP for the 428 CJ ram air cars, over and above the considerable factor that they had already added to the 428`s. Basically almost everybody who was running a 428 CJ car at that time replaced their Shaker or Ram Air hoods with flat hoods, rather than carry the extra weight the scoops required. As for hood scoops in general, obviously not all are equal in design. The huge 68 Hemi Cudas and Dart scoops, as well as the boundary layer designed 440 6 pack Road Runner and T/A Challenger scoops would likely be superior to, say, an 68-69 Road Runner "Air Grabber", Buick GS, or Firebid-GTO style units. I remember towing a friends 70 Buick GS to Boise , on an open trailer years ago, in a rainstorm. When we got to the track, the rain and dust had left a nice bunch of trails on the hood, & by looking at these dust trails, it was obvious that the airflow went around the almost flush hood openings for the ram air setup, rather than into these openings. Many of these scoops and "cold air" setups were simply styling gimmicks, while others, most notably some from MoPar were actually designed to be functional.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

My reference was to factored horsepower, not OEM ratings.

I thought that if the engine had a factored HP rating that depended on fresh air for that rating, then it should be allowed fresh air in a GT chassis. But, since they have removed all the separate factors for fresh air engines, it's a moot point.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

See if it still is a "moot point." You race SS/GT competitively with a non-ram air engine in a non-ram air body. Some high roller puts the exact same non-ram air combo into a totally different body. The thing is his car has a hood scoop that actually works and works very good. This someone goes to a mineshaft and lets his ego outdo his brain. Automatic horsepower hit!!! Now your stuck with a horsepower hit that cannot be touched with your non-ram air body no matter what you do.

Don't look like a moot point to me!

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Good point, BBG67. I guess the obvious answer is, don't build a GT car in a chassis that can't run a hood scoop.

Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

Not necessarily true on your last statement, Bill. Since the original CAR factors W/original engine are used to determine the GT car min weight, following that statement might not be an advantage. The fresh air packages can put you at the middle or bottom of a class minimum weight . Then there are others that will put you at the top of the class weight. Sure they might help overcome some problems, but is that enought to make a car that is at the bottom of the class weight run with another combo w/out FA that is at the top? I think you need to take a longer look at the situation & study the classification guide before trying to make abolising the Fresh air car factors an agenda. I Have been looking to the future in SS/GT and have found many freshair packages to be very versatile. With a hood change & HP change some cars can fit many classes. Some come in at the top, some in the middle & some at the bottom. A racer just has to figure it out. I don't think there is any overall magic in just having fresh air in GT classes. Esp the way the class is figured. My .02 after watching this thread develop.

Adger Smith
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Re: Older Superstock GT cars with scoops
 

My guess is that an older car with "fresh air" will not be picked due to that against a newer "slicker" car..so fresh air or not probably dosen't make the difference...but added hood clearence maybe could offset the aerodynamic disadvantages some..

personally i would hate to see a "Race-Hemi" whit out a race-hemi..but thats me!