Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

There are a couple of excellent discussions going on here during the offseason, and reading them has brought a question to mind.

My first Indy was in 1966 and it was absolute paradise. Yes, I wanted to see the Pros, but more than anything I wanted to see the cars that were legends as baddest of the bad. These were the guys who were the best in the world at racing cars like I (and my friends) raced.

I'm talking about racers like Bill Spanakos (Monster Mash), Dick Moroso, George Cureton, Jess Tyree, Jere Stahl, Bill Jenkins, Ronnie Sox, Dick Landy, Dyno Don, etc.

Just a few years later I was looking for John Lingenfelter, John Dianna, Ed Hamburger, Mark Coletti, Barry Poole, Bo Laws, Ray Allen, Dave Boertman, Truman Fields, etc.

What's changed? Is it just that I was a serious gear head and took the time to recognize the really heavy hitters? Or that back then things were truly heads up and the fastest was easy to find?

Was it because that there were a bunch of monthly magazines featuring these cars? Was it because there weren't so many national events so seeing any of these guys from across the country was really special?

I honestly don't know and that's why I'm interested in everyone's opinion. I just know that there was a time when class cars truly DID have crowds around them in the pits and the stands didn't empty when they ran.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong, but it doesn't seem like the really excellent racers are household names for race fans any longer.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

The difference is that in the early days, Sportsman racers had a lot more sponsorhips and factory support. It was the days of the "Factory Wars" and "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday". They got a lot of ink ion adevrtisements and magazines. Today, very few get that type of ink.

In addition, Pro Stock was still a developing from the Super Stock class and was not a big professional class as today. The big Pro's in the early days were T/F and later F/C, which happened to mature also from Super Stock, to AF/X and finally F/C.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

What I think changed is;

1) The guys that are the heavy hitters now are the best drivers, not necesarly the guys with the fast cars.

2) We used to run off of national records, not dial-in's.

3) You always remembered who won the Nat'ls. & Winter Nat'ls. Now there are so many national events you can't remember who won last weeks race.

4) Magazines (Super Stock & Drag Illustrated) made a big deal of our heros and their cars. Now TV is the medium and they don't even show the sportsman classes except the alky classes and a quick fash of some finals.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Very true! And it was all so very new and exciting.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Also, we ran off of national records, not the too-soft indexes we have now that just about anything will run under. In hot weather you may not find more than three or four cars at a race that could actually break out. We were allowed to run 1/10th under. The faster cars usually won. Now, it's dumbed down to mostly et brackets. Unless you get in a popular class with a good chance for a heads-up, you won't actually do much real racing. Stockers were in magazines, SSDI covered the east coast cars, and Car Craft (John Diana, and later Rick Voglin were racers and the editors) covered the west coast cars. Imagine the indexes lowered one second today, that is about what we had then.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

In other words PROGRESS.It's a different world than then,just as 20 years in the future what we're doing is going to seem like the 2nd golden age.It's like that in every phase of our lives.We dont like it,but that's
the way the world revolves.
(I miss those days though).....................................

Ed F.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

We're also in an attention-deficit age... there are many more things for people to spend their money on and/or pay attention to. Also, "back in the day" everything was 'new', and people marveled at everything. The general populace today has expectations born out of the "been there, done that" mentality. That being said, I think that many folks would be newly impressed at today's show if they would go again (or for the first time).

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

I think those were the innovators of the day, and Class racing was where it is at.

Now the NMRA, NMCA, ORSCA, etc outlaw street car stuff is where the attention is, and so thats where the innovators are

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

I agree with everything that has been previously stated; but the "hardcore" fan, like me, will always recognize the Sportsman stars. Peter Biondo, Dan Fletcher, David Rampy, Anthony Bertozzi, Vinny Barone, and Michael Iacono, just to name a few, are well known and loved by fans like me. The "casual" fan attends a National event primarily for the fuel cars; most of them leave the stands when Pro Stock and Pro Stock motorcycle qualifying starts, and the rest of them leave when the Sportsman cars run. The "casual" fan attends a National event Friday - Sunday (Friday - Monday for Indy); the "hardcore" fan is there from Thursday - Sunday (Wednesday - Monday for Indy). That behavior will probably never change, that is why the attendance is so low at most Divisional races and National Opens; only the "hardcore" fan attends a Divisional event or a National Open, and "hardcore" fans are definitely the minority.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Bill, I saw the same thing when I started going to the national events. I was usually found getting under Mike Edward's feet, and when Pro Stock ran, you could sit anywhere you like. Everybody left after the fuel cars, which I have no interest in watching. Worked out well for me. I showed Pete Peery a picture I found of his Bill Hilsher<SP> Vega at a Laplace div 4 race. He said "look at all the people in the stands!" I remember them being full, but top fuel and Pro Stock ran div races back then also.

I was a little suprised the first time I stood in line at a national event waiting for the gates to open. Everybody was telling bs stories about what Kenny Bernstien and John Force were having a war about, Some whiz-bang new blower somebody had, other bs. After the gates opened, I would sit on Mike's golf cart until they showed up. The same people were walking around carrying old head gaskets, other crap they found in the pro's trash cans. Baggy shorts, flip flops, mullets or bald spots above pony tails, wife beater shirts, teeth missing. Not the same crowds we used to see. Looked like the same people I saw at my one & only NASCAR race. They are obviously only there for the noise and big speeds. Most don't know beans about the cars. That's not everybody, but a large percentage of them. The people left in the stands when Pro Stock and sportsman cars run seem pretty knowlegable. They pretty much leave when the throttle stop cars come up.

I miss the real racing.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Ed,

Speaking of Rick Voeglin (sp), If you can, can you post that picture of Pete Perry's Vega ? I'm thinking this is the same car that Reher-Morrison borrowed the motor out of at the '75 Sportsnationals in Bowling Green to replace their wounded little 287. This is from the Car Craft article that Rick wrote about them when he tagged along with them to Kentucky.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Wow! this one is easy to answer, things seemed so different then because they were. You didn't have the "check book" racers you have today. The "stars" then were guys who worked their butts off to build something that you couldn't just scratch off a check for like today. These racers were high performance "junkies" they pushed parts that were never designed for the purpose to the edge and beyond. I would guess that the sheer small number of them is the reason most people can still recall their names. I'd bet for the most part all their work was "in house" who was gonna do it for them? Yes I know that not everyone can build a great race engine or their own car or all the various other things involved in racing, however it seems like the number of "hands on" guys are dwindeling, and that's just sad. Joe

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Well, as a dyed-in-the-wool DINOSAUR, I have to tell you all that if you missed the 1961-62 Nationals (they didn't call it the U.S. Nationals, yet) at INDY, you missed a lot. Let's see, 1961 was only 48 years ago...... Hmmmm.... I was 23 at the time; ripe for some excitement; Indy didn't disappoint!!! :)

I had gone to the Nationals at Oklahoma City in 1957 and '58, but was not prepared for what I saw at Indy. The '61 race was the first time they ran the Nationals at Indy, and it was almost the ONLY National event.... all year. There was only the brand new Winternationals, so far as any other National events went.... It was awesome... and stands alone in my memory as THE drag race.... what all subsequent drag races should have aspired to.

As such, everybody and his dog showed up; I think there were something like 1,200 cars in competition.... and not a .90 class car in sight... lol! Of ANY kind...

ALL racing was heads-up... NO handicapped starts. Think about that for a minute... No Christmas tree! You had to actually OUTRUN everybody you beat!!!

That's the "drag racing" I grew up with.... what a concept, huh?

The race was for a CLASS WIN!!! The Eliminators were not the be-all/end-all that they are, today. Yes, there were nice prizes for the Eliminator winners (how about a new car???), but the Class winners also got bragging rights for a WHOLE YEAR!!! Magazine ads would, month after month, feature a National Class Champion who had won Indy.. because it was almost the only game in town.... heck, in the COUNTRY, with only the first couple of Pomonas to contend with.

All year long, you'd hear stories about somebody running a certain car in a certain class who was really, really fast.... but, you also had a local hero who ran that class and had run quicker, so, you couldn't WAIT for the showdown for that class winner at Indy, because you KNEW they'd BOTH be there!!! The anticipation was almost too much to bear.... really!

I remember "Cajun" Marino Monjure racing "Cheatin" Chico Breschini for B/D honors.... New Orleans vs. California for B/D national championship honors.... but a little 232 de-stroker 4-71 equipped mouse motor (Starkey/Jent from Columbus, Ohio) showed them BOTH the way home with his blown C/D (moved from C up to B because a blower advanced you one class, back then.) Or, maybe that was '62.. I've slept since then... lol!

The excitement of seeing Atlanta, Georgia's "Dyno" Don Nicholson's 409 racing the factory Mopar Dodge, and Hayden Proffitt's West Coast Pontiacs was exquisite.... This was pre-Thunderbolt, pre Mopar Hemi timeframe.... the cars were basically showroom stuff, which made it all the more exciting, because Joe Racer could duplicate it without having to have a "factory connection."

Nowdays, very few cars from California venture to Indy, because they have several National events in their back-yard... and, who can blame them?

It was a different world, back then, and Stock Eliminator was just getting off the ground... but as with any "new" entity, the excitement was rampant... LOTS of cars in each class! All heads-up!!!

Basically, it was a time when you spent all year reading about Ohio George Montgomery's '33 Willys A/GS Chevy-powered car in the magazine ads, and reading also, the Engle and B & M ads about Stone-Woods-Cook's similarly-classed, big-inch Olds-powered '41 Willys, and wondering who would prevail in Class at Indy, because you KNEW they'd both be there!

They were, and Ohio George, with the little Chevy, made them all look bad, usually.

The dragsters that ran Top Eliminator were a mixed bag of early "Chizler" Mopar Hemis, Chevy small blocks, Olds and Pontiac powered cars, a few big-block (Lincoln 430) Fords, and weird, one-off creations like Mickey Thompson's Pontiac HEMI that won the race in 1962. (R.I.P., Mickey.)

"Ingenuity in Action." :)

That was NHRA's motto back then. It was NOTHING like the cookie-cutter Pro "SPEC" cars running today, where so many things are dictated to the builder. If you think that T/F is an "unlimited" class, take a look at the rulebook and you'll see that the parameters for building one of these cars is almost as restrictive as the rules for building a Super Stocker. You cannot tell these cars apart, but for the paint jobs....

And with that thought, let me just say that when the variety went out of Pro Drag Racing cars, so did the excitement. It's just a tuner and driver contest, now. NHRA has effectively taken all of the imagination and excitement out of those classes by making anything innovative or "different," illegal now.

Forunately, they can't impart "SPEC"-type rules to Stockers and Super Stockers, and that's one of the reasons I have always been a HUGE fan of these cars. The variety continues to excite and fire my imagination.

There are combinations out there, still untried, that will blow our minds when they get these cars operational... and frankly, I can't wait!!!

Long live Stock and Super Stock, the essence of drag racing! :)

Bill

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Your right Bill, you had to actually be fast enough to outrun the other car. I don't remember for sure which guy won which, but the Nationals were at Great bend KS (1956?), the next year they were at OKC, I think 1956 was the year Jack Zink won with his 1956 2X4 bl Pontiac, '57 or '58 Jerry Weiderman <SP?> with his 1957 283" FI Chevy. Zink went on to win the Indy 500 and several locat circle track championships, Jerry got Tulsa's only 1961 409". 1962 anybody could buy one, not so in 1961. Guess you had to know somebody. Red Biscayne 2 dr sedan. I thought it was the coolest thing I had ever seen.

Todd, I would post Pete's picture, but I don't know how. I'm old. I think that was the car David & Buddy borrowed the engine from. Those are all good guys. I still miss Buddy and Lee. They were all helpful even though I was doing all my own work. Too poor to buy engines. Did have a set of Lee's heads on my last car, 292" C/SM '69 Camaro. David and Bruce Allen have been very helpful to me with advice and catching up with the new stuff that has come along since I quit in 1979. Ditto Allen Patterson. Probably should have stayed quit. Not sure which is going to cause me stop this time, the economy or arthritis. Both have slowed me down a lot.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Man you guys are taking me back. I just spent over an hour BS'ing about the old days with my boss instead of working..lol. Yeah Im old but went back to work for awhile. I love these old stories. Reminds me of watching "The Old Reliable" running at Aquasco speedway in 62 or 63 with a DIRT shutdown area. 118 MPH and the dirt would fly.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Ed, it wouldn't do for us to get together; we'd have to do some SERIOUS bench racing!!! :)

I don't know about 1956, but John Zink won the Top Stock honors at Oklahoma City in 1957 with his '57 Pontiac Chieftan 2-door sedan, sporting three two barrels on a 317HP, solid-lifter 347" motor. Ran 94mph through the mufflers on street tires with the air cleaner on... lol! That was flyin' back then!

I've always wondered why a supercharged '57 Ford didn't win that; they were WAY fast.... so fast, that NASCAR banned them, along with the '57 F.I. Chevys. A properly-prepped Torqueflite '57 Dodge D-500 would have been fast, too; it had the '56 Chrysler 354-cubic inch, "300B" motor with 2 4bbls... rated up to 355 HP in '56 with the optional (10:1) high compression pistons.

Lots of stuff goin' on back then that I didn't find out about 'til later.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

I had a '55 Dodge Hemi in a '48 Plymouth my senior year of high school. Thought it was fast until I bought my first V8 Chevy, 1956 4bl manual trans. Got it to go 15.0s, thought it was bad-fast. 4.56 gears and Atlas Butyl tires did wonders for it.

Hmm, I was told the Pontiac had 2 4bls, too young then to have seen it. Still in Jr High (called Middle School now) I did know Jerry, but not until he got the 409". 1961 model, the year I graduated, and started racing at the track. He is retired as a fishing guide in Texas last I heard. Jack Zink, I'm not sure he is still alive. Used to have a museum at the Zink Ranch, not too far from my house. Had an Indy wining car there (Offy power), and another Indy car with a sbc he played with on his own asphalt oval track at his ranch. Bennie Osborn, Top Fuel World Finals winner, when they were held here at Tulsa (1967 or 1968?) lives a couple miles from my house also. Still see him a lot. Bob Creitz (Creitz & Geer, Creitz & fill in the blank over the years, Top Fuel) is still around. Bob was by here (my shop) a few weeks ago. Everybody is getting old. Bob is over 70, Bennie just turned 70. I'm the kid, and I just turned 65. It sucks, too.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

I totally agree, the people around our area, ask us all the time to come ORSCA racing. Thats the happening thing in the SOUTH. I do race NMRA and some ORSCA race when it doesnt conflict with NHRA-IHRA. The



Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Do they have SS classes?

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Ed,

The '55 Pontiacs were slugs because they only had 287 cubic inches and no multiple carburetion, for 180hp (2bbl) and 200hp (4 bbl). In '56 it got better with 317 cubic inches, and they added a two four-barrel option (205hp.one 2bbl; 227hp, one 4bbl; 285hp 2-4bbls). But, the '57's would RUN.... with 347 cubes, bigger valves, and three two barrels (the ORIGINAL "Tri-Power", which Pontiac copyrighted.) 270hp for one 4bbl, 290hp with the "mild" 3 X 2 setup, and up to 317hp with the 3-2bbl setup with a good (factory) cam. I think that John Zink's car had an optional solid lifter setup, too.

They had 2 four barrels one year only (1956), 'til the 421 "Super Duty" motor came out in '62.

Hope this helps..

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

No, they dont, but they have a 6.0 class and we have ran the SS there a couple of times, but i also have a 10sec N/A strip/street mustang that I run in the 7.0 classes, and then i run NMRA O/C or True Street.



Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

Maybe it has gotten overshadowed by more heavily promoted classes but there are still a few of us that are impressed to see the fast guys come to town or travel to where they'll be. I'm not sure the average drag racing fan would understand why i'd want to go to New Jersey or Pennsylvania in October.

Re: Then vs Now - What Happened?
 

So, it's all 1/8th mile?