Factory experimental
 

I spoke to the Ford guys at 2008 SEMA and they are really pumped up to run their tricked out, aftermarket, 700+ HP Mustangs in Stock against our 40 year old cars. From what we have already seen from early testing, there is no doubt that they will in fact come into the AA and A Classes and kick our butts. Although the Chrysler guys were a little more subdued about their impact on these classes, it is clear that they want to dominate as well. New blood is fine, but this is way over the top.

I personally think this is an unconscionable venture between these two auto makers and nhra to wipe out the upper classes with these cars. I believe, until now, supercharged cars were not allowed to race in Stock. nhra has no idea how to tech these cars, and any tech information they get will come directly from the preferred OEM.

The new Challengers and Mustangs belong in FX classes. After Pomona it will be too late. No matter how bad it makes nhra and Ford/Chrysler look the deal will be closed and most racers will not be able to compete with these Aftermarket Super Stock cars masquerading as Stockers.

Yes, it's good that the OEM's want to play, but these cars should be placed in A/FX. They can still run the eliminator just like everybody else and, at the same time, have a showcase class to market their cars.

nhra should not be so hungry to forget or neglect it's responsibility to fairly classify these cars!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, welcome to my world.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, I think you may be on to something. I know that the AHFS will not correct the factors on these cars in any reasonable amount of time. Considering that they aren't showroom available, they should not be allowed in the class. These cars don't have VIN numbers. while i think the involvement of detroit in S/SS is wonderful, as someone with alot of money and time invested in A/SA or AA/SA it sickens me to think of how much it would cost to compete with these guys

Re: Factory experimental
 

It's obvious that NHRA made a "deal with the devil" when they changed the wording in the rule book a couple of years back, adding the "special production run" clause of 50 cars for manufacturers. I see there are four '08 Mustangs (Calvert, J. Waldo, Stinnett, Ronzello) entered for Pomona. No new Challengers yet, but they are sure to come in the near future. It will be interesting how all of this sorts out. The positive I see is that this may generate some much needed publicity for our class.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I have about decided, we are on the losing end of a sinking ship. That means if they are rating these cars at 700hp, how much will a race prepaired, really make, and this is in Stock. Try gettin one of those babys insured for the street, they are street legal cars, right?:cool:

Re: Factory experimental
 

How are these cars any different from a 1968 Dart/Barracuda Hemi car, or a Thunderbolt? Both are non-street-legal factory cars, both have outrageously powerful engines that wouldn't be happy in a grocery getter, and both are EXTREMELY limited production cars.

What did they do with the Hemis and T-Bolts?

They put them in their appropriate Super Stock classes, where they could "play with their own kind."

There IS no Factory Experimental class in the rule book, and hasn't heen for eons, but there sure as hell are Super Stock classes for these cars, and I think that's where they belong. Let's see how they fare against Brandon Wilkinson's car, heads-up, or any of the Hemi '65 Plymouths and Dodges in SS/B...

Apples to apples...

That IS what they did with the '68 competition Hemis and Thunderbolts...

What's good for the goose, etc., etc., etc....

What think ye? They sure as hell don't belong in Stock Eliminator, for a variety of reasons!

Re: Factory experimental
 

All this does is re-enforce my feeling that the powers that be either don't have a clue or really don't care about stock eliminator. These factory built race cars belong in some class besides stock eliminator. A " 68 " Z-28 can't even run the 2x4's or the cam that anyone could order from the factory and have delivered to the dealer in the trunk of the car. Now whatever the factory wants to do is okay even though these are not even street legal cars. A lot of A and AA cars are going to be obsolete.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

New classes AF/S & AF/SA = All new Fords AD/S & AD/SA = All new Dodge & Chyrsler (or even AM/S or AM/SA for Mopars) AG/S & AG/SA = All General Motors. All with their own indexes and Factors.This reminds me of mixing fuel injections with carb classes . In my opinion this is the way it should be if they want to run stock..Who knows ,maybe this is the new answer to cutting out real stockers at NHRA. These cars could easily take your place in the big show. That would make them happy . Just thinking out loud ..

Re: Factory experimental
 

I made several posts on the new Cobra Jet Mustang in testing on this forum and the moderator deleted every one of them. Why, I have no idea. But I'll try again. 138 MPH with 210 degree water temps and pump-gas tune. ET was down in the low-mid 10's due to poor driving skills.
And NHRA has made statements in the past they do not support limiting or regulating boost on turbo applications but believe it is not acceptable to change boost on Supercharged applications by altering pulley diameters. That makes about as much sense as I don't know what! The way around this with SC applications is I'm sure the OEM will have different pulleys as OEM acceptable. They already offer a 5.4 SC Shelby factory delivered with 500 HP, 540HP, 625HP & 700 HP.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Well... according to my NHRA Rulebook, the 3rd paragraph states "OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need NOT be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent".
A quick peek at my 2004 Rulebook has the exact paragraph, word for word. Wouldn`t this same situation be how the 66 427 Fairlanes, COPO and Yenko Camaros, "Firehawk" late model Firebirds, the LT1 powered 97-98 Camaro & Firebirds, and possibly some other vehicles that Joe Blow off the street would never have been able to purchase from his local dealership?
As for the percieved domination of these Mustangs, it kinda sounds like many racers complaints when the EFI cars started getting popular. "The aerodynamics, high tech vodoo, better wight balance, etc" was going to ruin it for the "little guy". When the EFI classes were blended with the traditional Stockers, the "fuelies" were gonna eat the older cars for lunch. At the end of the 2008 season, there were more carbed cars in the top 10, and the vast majority of NHRA National records were held by the older cars too. I think a sit & wait approach would be better than panicking. Granted ,it did take NHRA a while to get the LS1`s HP rating within reason, but then Pontiac WAS the "Offical Car of NHRA" at the time, Ford isn`t, so maybe NHRA would be a bit quicker to react if the new Cobra Jet does indeed run away from the pack. As for superchargers in Stock, they were legal in the 57 Fords, and several versions of Studebakers years ago, and Turbos have been allowed for years, so whats the differance? Personally, I think that any forced induction Stocker should be limited to the factory boost pressure, but maybe thats just me. I guess Pomona will tell the story, right?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory,

You confuse legitimate criticism with complaints. The Computerized/Injected and carburetor cars were separated for a reason and I notice that the new Mustangs and Challengers will not impact your racing. Your argument that - what the heck they did it years ago doesn't flush. These new cars bear no resemblance to the dinosaurs of the past. They are rockets on wheels compared to the old stuff from the 60's and 70's which many of us are still running.

Kenny has worked hard to give us a great racing site. This site offers tons of information to the racers and that is why I have started this thread. I certainly don't believe nhra will change a thing regarding this issue. They are too far gone for that. But it is important for the racers to know and understand that, in this case, we are going to be hosed.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory..The Fi cars got there own class because the everyone was uncertain how it would turn out and were brought back in after many years and the classifications seemed to work within reason..maybe the same should be done this time around...but i still think they should be SS cars..because thats what they are!!!

p.s. I dont see how they could pssible stay in stock if they will get the hp the way it seem they probaly should..or will NHRA fast add AAA and AAAA?

Re: Factory experimental
 

what makes these new cars super stockers?

Re: Factory experimental
 

It will be real interesting to see how this all plays out. First off how can they possibly fit in stock with AA having a 7.5 P/W factor a 500 horse deal has to weigh 3750. Add 100 hp and it’s got a minimum of 4500 pounds. I don’t know what the shipping weight of a mustang is but its sure not 4500 pounds. Anything over lets say 550 hp is going to put them way under the AA 7.5 minimum. So will we see 5000 pound mustangs or an AAA class? I would say that the AHFS would eventually catch up with them but it’s a interesting situation when if they make a 1.4 under run they will have to add something like 140# all at once. Where I would be real concerned if I was an A or AA racer is if these cars end up getting the index’s hit. Another point to ponder is that to use the Hemi Darts and Cudas as an example they were never able to run in stock due to their P/W ratio. They only fit in Super Stock. Isn’t this the case here?

Re: Factory experimental
 

I don't know what the shipping weight of them is either, but I think they are fairly heavy. The 5.4 motor is heavy too. I think someone ran one in IHRA pure stock a couple years ago at Rockingham. I think the GT weight on the sticker was 3750. The cars with the 5.4 should be considerably heavier than that.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Power to weight ratio...probably.."in real life"

Re: Factory experimental
 

Sorry, but I did send an inquiry and it was not responded too. And I may be wrong but I believe I had the subject on two different threads and each was removed. I assumed it was because I said the car was owned & run by CenterForce. I felt at the time everybody should know what they were up against if they raced in the same class. 138 MPH @ 210 water temp on 91 octane fuel will be untouchable in class eliminations. Because I would imagine the "race" tune will yield close to 145 MPH.

And back on topic, I believe all pressurized engines should be held to OEM specifications. But as I pointed out, Shelby already has a 5.4 that develops 700 HP sold to the public (although without warranty). I would assume that is a result of increased boost.

Re: Factory experimental
 

The 2008 Cobra Jet is in the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. The shipping weight for the coupe is 3239 (7.62 X 425) and the convertible is 3324 (7.82 X 425).

Re: Factory experimental
 

The actual shipping weights for the Mustangs are much higher than the gifts from nhra.

Let's use the Ford Executives figure of 720 Horsepower and nhra's weight of 3,250 pounds to check the trusty old Moroso Calculator. These things are usually pretty close.

Edit:
Add 170 for the driver = minimum weight of 3,358.

Answer: 9.51 @ 141+ MPH. Yes, they would have to get the car to stick.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory said, "I think that any forced induction Stocker should be limited to the factory boost pressure"...

Jeff Lee said, "I believe all pressurized engines should be held to OEM specifications. "
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Where were you guys about 6 months ago, when I was beating the drum for tell-tale boost gauges on all forced induction cars because of their inordinate showing as #1 qualifiers at National events??? In the last four years, (had stats for 2004-2007 at the time) about two percent of the cars (turbo cars) had nailed down something like fifteen-percent of the #1 qualifying slots... a statistical anomaly that screams for attention.

Now that the issue is a different one, but the cause of the problem is the same, you come out with this.

Since horsepower at the flywheel is almost certainly boost-dependent, OF COURSE it needs to be monitored to factory specs, one way or another. Tell-tale boost gauges is one effective way to do it.

I still think these "new" factory race cars belong in S/S.... especially, the ones with less than 7.5 lbs/hp.

My 2-cents...

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory, Yes there were supercharged Ford's and Studebaker's in "Stock" many years ago. Larry Walker and myself at one time had to make a full pass, with a tech inspector riding along monitoring his own calibrated boost pressure gauge. We, (1957 Ford) were allowed 6# of boost @ 4800 RPM's, plus 1# of boost for every 1000 RPM's over 4800 RPM's we turned the engine. I understand Gordon Williams had to do the same with his Studebaker also. Has anything like that been done lately, or are there any boost specs on these new cars at all. Any body know?

Fred Holdorf

Re: Factory experimental
 

How much HP does a 426 Hemi or 427 Chevy stocker motor make?

Re: Factory experimental
 

A good Street Hemi should make somewhere in the neighborhood of 650 HP. Don't know about the 427's.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Where were you guys about 6 months ago, when I was beating the drum for tell-tale boost gauges on all forced induction cars because of their inordinate showing as #1 qualifiers at National events??? In the last four years, (had stats for 2004-2007 at the time) about two percent of the cars (turbo cars) had nailed down something like fifteen-percent of the #1 qualifying slots... a statistical anomaly that screams for attention.

Now that the issue is a different one, but the cause of the problem is the same, you come out with this.

Since horsepower at the flywheel is almost certainly boost-dependent, OF COURSE it needs to be monitored to factory specs, one way or another. Tell-tale boost gauges is one effective way to do it.

I still think these "new" factory race cars belong in S/S.... especially, the ones with less than 7.5 lbs/hp.



How about when a turbo car at a alt. track sets a record 1.58 under but wait, it can't get hit because it's a alt track. Sorry almost a year later that still bothers me.

Re: Factory experimental
 

George,
Thanks for looking up the numbers.
So if a 425 horse mustang goes 1.4 under it will get 3.25% Monday morning that will put it up to 440 horsepower. With only a 3239 shipping weight the hard top would end up at 3239/440= 7.36 and would no longer fit in AA it would be a natural SS/C the car is only 7 horsepower away from not fitting in stock. The convertible has a little more leeway but not much. I could see an AAA class coming awful fast!

Re: Factory experimental
 

An excellent 427 will make about 640 Horsepower tops.

Re: Factory experimental
 

This is a good post. The new blown cars should be factory experimental.

If a mustang comes 'stock' with 700hp, what will it make tricked out? 850?

Good luck getting that to hook.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I am afraid some are missing the writing on that wall. As always factoring will be under rated, under supervised and less efficiently performed than on the old cars currently running. Why? New cars new blood,in the race scene and news. Guys will give up beating on the 67 camaro, the darts or fords to build the " weakly factored" new stuff. This will dominate the news, the best engineered, best paint till some appropriate number are spread through out the country. THEN some one might notice a minor change in HP is needed, a boost gauge might be nice or a spec on inlet size. History just keeps repeating itself as a method of freshening up the pictures in dragster and the magazines. The 90s injection problems will look like a minor issue again.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I've made mention of this issue many times over the years. It usually falls on deaf ears or the FWD brigade jumps in and then it turns into debate over what the OEM standard is (or isn't) and how boost somehow equals nothing more than blueprinting a non-pressurized engine.
The SCCA stopped the tide of MOPAR FWD cars dominating the races decades ago. They gave turbo racers pre-set, sealed & locked waste gates that were installed prior to the race ahead of the carb or injection system. I'm not sure if the waste gate was set to an OEM or SCCA standard but it took care of the issue.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Yes, I'd call that excellent. A goal to pursue, at the very least! :D

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bill, I`ve always felt that the forced induction car should be limited to factory boost levels. Like Jeff said (and he used to run a Turbo FWD Stocker), whenever this subject was brought up in the past, it usually ended up with the Turbo FWD crying "No Fair", because turbo`s are inconsistent, or FWD cars don`t have many gear ratios to choose from, or how FWD cars are tricky to hook up, but then they brag about taking a bone stock turbo FWD car and running 1 1/2 seconds under for virtually no expense.Personally, the sealed pre set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine only seems fair.

Fred, I have heard the stories about NHRA Tech officials riding along with the blown 312 Fords way back when. By the way, Larry Walkers old 57 blown 312 car is still around. It`s been up here in Western Canada since the early 70`s, and is scheduled to come back out this year, after being in storage since about 1975.
One thing that I do find odd about the new Cobra Jet is that according to Georges post, it appears that NHRA knocked 75 HP from the 500 HP rating. That could be interesting! But hasn`t NHRA often "adjusted" factory HP ratings, both up & down? Like I said before, Pomona should be interesting! Seeing Jim Waldo back in a Ford is great, even if it is an automatic (for now!?):D

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory said, "Personally, the sealed pre-set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine only seems fair."

In the lengthy discussion I had with owners'-drivers of turbo Stockers, I learned a few things. I learned, for instance, that with certain LEGAL engine modifications (such as a legal cam swap, the installation of headers to better supply the turbo with exhaust gas, and a superior spark advance curve, etc.,) BOOST can increase well beyond factory levels.

Now, I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth here, but we do need to be fair about this. If a turbo car has the option of changing cams, headers, etc, (like a normally-aspirated car,) and in the process, it causes the boost level to go up due to more air passing through the engine, how would it be fair to deny them that additional boost, if they came by it the same way a normally-aspirated car comes by the additional horsepower it accrues with the addition of headers, a better cam. etc.????

It's not going to be easy to answer that... But....what's good for the goose, etc...

Insofar as requiring "a sealed pre-set wastegate on a turbo or blowoff valve on a supercharged engine," IF something like that were ever to be done, wouldn't a tell-tale boost gauge to be read by the tech who does the fuel check and weighs the car after every run be a lot simpler and cheaper? He would have in his possession, a boost specification provided by the NHRA tech dept. that would represent the allowable psi for that particular engine, and when the car comes in for its fuel check and to be weighed, the tech would simply look at his chart for the car, and if the tell-tale gauge needle is stuck at a number beyond the chart spec, then that car cannot compete any more at that race. Just like if the fuel won't check, or the car's too light...

A tell-tale boost gauge is a lot cheaper and easier to install than a dedicated wastegate or blowoff valve, don't you think? Only needs one small piece of tubing...

Bill

Re: Factory experimental
 

Now this post is funny ... just because it is not your brand some of you complain and whine. Let's talk about cars that came out under rated ... the 305 hp LT1 Firebird and Camaro was rated at 275 ... what a joke, you could run a second under at that HP before you did anything to the motor. Then there was the LS1 which was rated at 335 but NHRA at 305. Another joke, I know a guy that just put a cam, headers, a gear and a set of tires on that combo and went 1.10 under at Indy. Now if this was a new Camaro you guys would think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread ... Give these cars a chance before you bash them, maybe you guys should build one ...

Re: Factory experimental
 

Probably the best way for us to deal with the new After Market Super Stock cars running in Stock is to simply take up a collection and make nhra a better offer. So, all we have to do is find out how much it cost Ford and Chrysler to place these cars in Stock. Then we just have to raise more money and go pay the nhra. I'm sure it really is just that simple.

Well, maybe this would be a short term fix because Ford and Chrysler would then come back with a better offer and we would lose all our money.

And I wonder about the racers who are going to race these cars in Stock. I wonder what they are thinking. Do they see this as a fair deal for the Stock Category? Now they have these great big cannons to race against a bunch of racers with pistols. This really is a new day for Stock. This is not part of a cycle. It is a major reset.

Re: Factory experimental
 

The biggest problem I see is that these are not street legal cars. These are purpose built race cars with bogus shipping weights and in the case of Ford an engine that doesn't come in a street legal car. Of course with Ford that's not a new thing. Chuck, if these cars were in your class and could run 2 seconds under the index you would be whining and complaining too.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Who are you and what have you done with the REAL Bruce Noland? I've been bitching for years about all of the exotic new stuff finding its way into Stock and making it harder for the guys racing real cars to compete and the REAL Bruce has been telling me that I'm crazy and Stock has to change or it will die! Seems to me that change is making this person (whoever he really is) a little itchy. Again, welcome to MY world.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Billy,

I know you live in a very mysterious world. But I don't remember ever saying the things you just brought up.

But do we now agree?

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100%

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Greg,
The LT1 and the LS1 were both in my class and I got my ***** handed to me lots of times until they put them in their own class ... and now they are back, but don't fit in my class anymore ...