1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Trying to figure out for my buddy and can't seem to find info....... 1. Was the 409 engine introduced initially or sometime during the model year? Any idea of what month?


2. Wasn't the 409hp (2x4bbl) engine available in the 1961 year, perhaps late? I'm talking about ordering a car with the engine not buying it at the parts counter. Most Internet sites I've searched list 360hp (1x4bbl) only. I recall a NHRA legal 1961 Impala hardtop racing in D/S during the '71 season with the 409hp engine and as many here will recall, rules were a bit tighter and cars HAD to exist then....NOT like today! Maybe 409hp was over the parts counter (at the time), and ALLOWED by NHRA in Stock? I know that 409hp was production in 1962.


3. If 409hp came in production late (1961), any idea how many 409hp cars built? Also, anybody know how many 1961 Super Sport 409 cars built? Total 1961 SS production was 453....many were 348 but?? Also, appears to be only 142 cars built with the 409 engine that year......in various body styles....pretty rare indeed!

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

I tried to order a 409 chev in February of 61
The engine was available only in the SS model, 360 HP only
They were all gone when I was ordering.
I got a 350 HP 348 instead

You could not order a 409/409 from the factory in 1961
By early summer, GM had released the dual quad set up over the counter only.
Guys like Nicholson got them but could not run in SS or AS
A new class was introduced for special equipment cars from the big three
It was called "X" Stock, if I remember correctly.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

I recall that Nicholson had a class designation something like OSS (Optional Super Stock) on his car out here in the fall of 1961.

c

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

I stand corrected, OSS is what it was.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Hi.Best of my knowledge and from my collection of facts re:W motors, for some reason,NHRA accepted the '62 409 heads and intakes on the '61 cars. Only around 540 '61 Chevys came with 360 horse 409's,this being all models included in the tally.The 360 horse engine was somewhat different in that all 8 pistons were identical,having a machined relief across the whole top where the intake valves wouldn't hit.This engine had small port heads with 3/8" dia. pushrods. I don't offhand have the casting numbers of the heads, and the intake was the same as the hi-po 348 aluminum high rise with a rather large AFB on it.It had a mechanical lifter camshaft with quite a bit of duration,but about .440" lift.The '62 409 had large port heads,casting number 3830690,the dual four barrel intake ended in part number 881,the front carb was #3361 with no idle mixture screws.The rear carb was #3362 and all idle speed and mixture adjustments were carried out on it. Quite a few of these engines had the Delco 1110919 dual point distributor with the dual window distributor cap.The '62-'65 hi-po pistons were all forged and had both right hand and left hand valve reliefs for the intake valve. The '61 heads had 2.08" intakes,1.72" exhausts.The later heads had 2.19"dia.intakes and 1.72" exhausts as well. The 409 horse top end was available as a "service package" mid year in '61,probably that secured it's legality. Interestingly enough,the two piece intake and the hi-po Z-11 heads were available mid year '62 as "service package" updates for the 409 in the 62 Chevies.I understood there was a huge performance increase with these-I never had any to try out for sure. Edelbrock has reproduced the 409 cylinder head and the dual four barrel intake,but it's not exactly like the original. In fact,it looks better. Someone needs to give it a try and report back. Let us know how this progresses.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Correction to last post- only 142 '61 360 horse 409's were produced in Impala SS's. Also the '62 409 came from the factory with a better cam with OEM part number ending with 930. The later engines and the '63 engines had camshaft part# 3830690. It had around .511" lift and quite a bit of duration. The only difference between a '62 409 horse and a '63 425 horse engine were the exhaust manifolds, the chrome valve covers, and the chrome air cleaner and dip stick handle. Also, the single four barrel 380 horse engine was identical to the 409 horse except for the intake and carb.Heads,cam,etc.were the exact same. Wouldn't it be great to see a few of these come back?

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Wow, thanks guys! Dick, did you order a Super Sport and could you tell me a little about the car? Did you ever take it to the track? Greg, thanks for your info as well. Weren't you the president of the National 409 club a few years ago? I was a member of the Midwest 409 club back in the early '80's. Didn't have the car, but always wanted one! Now, it's too late.............

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Yes,sswannabe, that was me. I wrote the newsletter for the 409 Chevy Club of America back then.I don't know where the National name came from,however.I still have one complete 409 engine,carbs to pan in the garage, still have a 12 bolt modified to fit one of those early cars,although I sold my car 10 years ago to Mitch in San Diego.He still runs it. It seemed like old times writing that post yesterday,in fact, all that came from memory. Seems like yesterday we raced at Orange County, read Super Chevy, and frequently visited with Doug Marion.Whatever became of Bob Goss and the Midwest club? I conversed with him on occasion,too.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Since these seems to be several guys reading this that have in-depth knowledge about these cars, I have a question or two that someone might can answer.

The Z-11 package was so much faster than the 425/409 that preceded it, I have often wondered why G.M. didn't find a way to get that motor into a few '64 cars... they seemed to just fold up after the front-office edict bannning racing.... and it was such a shame because tha Z-11 engine seemed to me to be about as good on a specific output basis, as the canted valve 396/427 that followed. It was a powerhouse!

And, in view of the above, I think it's a shame that if the aftermarket is going to reproduce cylinder heads, that they don't reproduce the GOOD ones (the Z-11's) an an intake manifold "package" along with it.

I am one of what I'l bet are more than just a few Mopar guys who would make the switch to Bow Ties if I could get my hands on a set of ALUMINUM 1963 Z-11 replica heads and intake. Those motors would haul those full-size '63 Impalas deep into the 11's, weighing upwards of 3,500 pounds...

I watched Bill Heilscher's ("FRIENDLY? CHEVROLET") white, 1963 Z-11 annihilate about 20 fast Mopar Stage II and III 426 Wedge cars at "Dodge Day" in Little Rock, one weekend in '63. Somebody had paid him $50.00 to come up from Dallas and bring his weapon of choice.... LOL! He drove it like he was trying to break it... but, never did.

Anyway, the Z-11's would be awesome if somebody could find a way to make parts available so they could be brought back without needing half of Fort Knox to get it done...

Thanks for listening.

Bill

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

I agree with Bill Dedman....I would buid a Z-11 clone for nostalgia racing if we could get Alum. heads and the 2 piece intake from someplace like Edelbrock. Greg Reimer is right on the money for the most part about the 409's. 142 SS Impalas were assembly line built with the 360 HP version. Even the racing greats such as Dyno Don Nicholson (Impala), Frank Sanders (Biscayne) and Dave strickler (Biscayne) started with 348/350 HP cars then switched engines for the Winter Nationals of that year. These were "left over" engines from the Daytona 500 of 1961 that were shipped to any racer who had connections with the factory or a name. The early engines were thin (cylinder walls) and blew up a lot during the 500 but worked OK for drag racing.The 409's were low RPM torque engines (6000 or so) as compared to the later big block version (396/427/454). They didnt breath well at higher RPMs. Thats most likely the reason they didnt use them in 1964, 1965 except for street use. The 409 was gone after half of the model run in 1965.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

The few '61 production 409's were all the 360 horse rigs...basically a 409 short block with the h.p. 348 cyl heads and single alum. AFB intake. In the late '80s/early '90's, I did a lot of buying and selling of 61-64 409 cars and parts. At one time I had a dozen complete motors including a rare '64 409-400 hp. motor...which was like the '64 409-425 dual quad motor but with a single AFB on an alum. intake. One of the 409-425 dual quad motors I did went into a '63 Bel Aire that was a Super Chevy winner at Indy.

The rotating assy. is heavy as heck..but so is a Hemi, right? HaHaHa!

P.S. If you make up an alum. valley cover, the Chrysler 'B' motor intake runners are almost a perfect match up for the factory W motor intake port spacing. Think Edelbrock Victor 383......grin.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Greg, I don't know what happened to Bob or the Midwest 409 Club....I did write him several times, and their events were usually at Union Grove or U.S. 30 Dragway, too far for me on the east coast. I think Rusty Symmes....(I think I got his name right) was a very active member in the club. He's got to be one of the biggest 409 fans on the planet! Well, next to Lamar W! One last question.....would anybody out there know if a 1961 Impala Super Sport 409 Convertible was ever built? Thanks again!

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Rusty lives in Winchester Indiana. He ran NMCA Pro nostalgia. He has a 62 409 style motor Bubble top with the Z-11 aluminum fenders etc. He does have a Wide range of info on 409/Z-11 stuff. He also has a 99pt restoration type Z-11 equiped 62 Bubble top also. He is doing his THIRD Z car now....He wrote a book on the parts and availability of stuff.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Hi. I found some part numbers. The '61 360 horse 409 aluminum intake is part number 3797776.The cylinder head is part number 3795586. Good luck finding this stuff. Somebody about six months or a year ago released reproduction Z-11 heads in aluminum. They were around $6000 a pair,however.I'll work on this source and see what I can find.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Many,many moons ago,I met somebody(about 1974 or 1975) that had bought a robin's egg blue '65 impala SS,409 400 horse engine,white interior,4 speed and all. He had it about a year, went cruising New Year's Eve on Colorado Blvd,burning up three full tanks of gas in the process, and e traded it in in early 1968 for a new 327 powered '68 impala. In the early summer of 1975,i worked in a gas station,and a blue 65 impala SS came in with a guy and his family on his way to Disneyland.He asked me to put in a quart of Pennzoil for him,which I did, and here was a 400 horse 409,high rise,AFB,chrome air cleaner and all. This car was very original,(stock as a rock),and had the original 4 speed with the curved chrome handle and knob with the T handle for reverse,and it was pretty much just a driver to him. Years later,long after I lost touch with all these persons,i found out that total '65 chevy 409 production was 2826-only 742 400 horse 409's were built. What were the odds that this was the same car?Probably pretty good.How many robin's egg blue with white interior 4 speed impala SS cars were built?Probably almost none.I'll never know. I wish when I worked at gas stations then that I could have rescued a LOT of cars back then We even had an occasional gas customer with a white with blue accents '69 Trans Am Firebird. Those were some happy hunting grounds back then,the first gas crisis of '73-74 put a lot of that stuff for sale CHEAP. More 409 stuff later.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Alright,guys,I said I'd do some research and get back on, here we go: For 409 parts and some neat stuff,go on Google and enter www.lamarwaldenautomotive.com.When you get through with that one, now try abruneauperformancee.ca/409chevyengineparts.html .He's a Stock Eliminator racer in Canada. It's been 20 years or so since I played with 409 Chevys, now look at the stuff available for them!! Unbelievable!! Look this stuff over, get back on here and tell us what you think!!

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Oh,yes, one more thing.On the Lamar Walden post, when you get on the home page,click on 348-409 catalog, then tell me what you think.

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Slight typo on one parts source- here's both of them again for the aluminum heads and the repro Z-11 heads and intakes-- www.lamarwaldenautomotive.com and the other is-- abruneauperformance.ca/

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Hey Greg.... this is the site:
http://www.bruneauperformance.ca

Yes, I have a 62 409 HP BelAir hardtop, setup for C/D Stock.
Looks like I'll FINALLY have a season this year !

Anyhow
Lots of new stuff for these engines now. Lamar has had a Z11 style head available for 15+ years, as well as a very nice ( expensive ) single plane 2X4 manifold. Bob Walla had his aluminum heads out 2 years ago... and Edelbrock introduced theirs last year. Edelbrock also has a dual plane 2X4 intake for small and large port heads, and they JUST introduced a modern Performer single 4 BBL ( about bloody time ! ).
Personally, I'm invloved in these engines pretty heavily. Last year, I designed and drafted up a single plane "air gap", single 4BBL intake manifold. Been working with the pattern maker for the past few months, and should have a casting shortly. Will finalize using a test engine on the dyno, and the manifold should be available within about 6 weeks.

Bob Walla should have an aluminum block available by summer.

So, if you're into a W Chevrolet...( and you have fairly deep pockets ! ), you should be able to build a proper 409, with a full compliment of modern technology !

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Hey guys,

I just found this forum. I have a 61 Bel Air that I run in IHRA stock eliminator,
G/Stock. IHRA reduced the hp rating to 325 back in 02, so Iam guessing
that someone either ran a 61 or was planning to. NHRA does not have the
61 360 hp refactored, but they do for later engines. 61 can use the large
port heads/intake, however the camshaft lift is limited to .439. I made three
events last and won class at one. The car will run 11.60/70's but I think
there may be another tenth or two left.

Gerry

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

and you guys should SEE Gerry's car !

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Aubrey and Gerry.....keep us posted on your experiences this year. Love to hear those old combos coming back one more time! Unfortunately, I can't participate...so I'll just buy a ticket and watch!

Re: 1961 Chevy 409 info wanted:
 

Just before I left IHRA in 2002 I was able to get approx 10% reduced off some of the cool old cars that were not competitive. I believe your combo was one of them?