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We have beat the Cobra Jet debate pretty much to death or until after Phoenix. Ford will be releasing twin Turbo "Ecoboost" 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines in the next year. What if they build a Mustang with this combination? This will be another power adder and I think the next debate should be " supercharger or twin turbochargers". In the land of "what if" Ford racing builds a Mustang Cobra Jet with a twin turbo V6. This harks back to the Buicks of the 1980's but the technology has come a long way. I am amazed at the "run what you brung races" where these turbo cars are showing up. Whether you like it or not, I think this will be the direction of future high performance cars including (ugh) the imports.

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I agree! This is going to be the future. NHRA knows what these cars are capable of and I think this new mustang will be Fords one freeby! All others will be factored alot better from here forward!

Just my opinion!

ps I dont't think we will see alot of these anyway because the kids today wont go and sit for 4 days and get 2-3 passes before the race starts! No way will they put up with this Bull Sh** only suckers like us!!!

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FE,

I think you are on to something regarding power adders. I sat in a Mercury convention in 1998 and they were introducing the new Cougars. They were trying to tell us the future was a FWD car with a simple power adder such as the Cougar with a supercharger, very little else. I thought they were smoking something, but now I think somebody may have been onto it. Too bad they dropped the Cougar. Later on I saw them introduce the Montego(again) and I told them it sounds great, just stick with it, well we know where that is too. Maybe Mercury is heading that direction.

My point is you are not the only one seeing this.

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Oh they're coming don't worry! The question is, how will they be factored. Also , how much is left? A 460 ford or 500 caddy from the early 70's has lots of room to improve, a maxed out v-6 won't have too much more room to go. Stocker tricks and more boost will give it 50-100hp at the most. A 460 built as a stocker will do lots better than it's 300hp rating.

Regardless...The HP war might be coming back!! (weird to say in these economic times but hey, they're being built)!!

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Unless there is a rule on injector size and boost level, the forced induction cars can potentially do a lot better than 50-100hp, not to mention the torque and rpm increases that come with doing the stocker tricks to them. That Cobra Jet is a pulley and calibration change away from 600hp at the wheels or more, and with motor work and exhaust that may hit 700+. It's a 9 second car, and unless GM and Chrysler come up with something that can compensate for the Ford's extra valve area, supercharger and rpm capability, they are going to get smoked.

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That would be the same as making all carbed cars run the stock jets.

A good start would be to police pulley sizes on super charged cars. On turbo charged cars the factory turbo has to be run. I kind of remember one Turbo Regal getting tossed for the wrong impeller a few years back. So, maybe they do check that stuff.

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Alright, barring a rule book and a proper quote, let's go with the ability to run any injector. With just injectors, fuel pump upgrade and exhaust, and the calibration work, and a pulley change, that's 700hp at the wheels. The streetcars are doing that now. With a dedicated build and high rpm valvetrain, more compression (these days running 9 to 1, 10 to 1 static with boost is normal with a modern chamber) because of the blueprinting, and an agressive tune on race fuel (or E85 if it's allowed since I think the car stock is flex fuel capable, could be wrong) it could hit 1000hp. Even if the pullies are policed, the extra rpm from "stocker" style cams will more than make up for it. Going thru the traps at 8000 plus, that blower will probably pumping 20 or more pounds of boost. Low 9's, maybe 8 second quartermile? And here's the funny thing, I am a Ford guy and I feel conflicted about letting a car like this loose in a "stock" style class where the vast majority of the cars are naturally aspirated. The bottom ends are strong enough from the factory to support 1200 rwhp. Heck, Helion put a twin turbo kit that integrates into the blower system for the 4.6 Cobra and 5.4 GT500's and made something like 1000-1200hp at the wheels; and it's totally streetable. Civilized until you give it gas and the world goes completely backwards. This car in the right hands can totally dominate the class, which just messes up the racing. It won't be close. The new Challenger will not keep up unless it can spin to 10000 rpms and live, and have a huge weight break, Chevy the same thing.

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THE CURE......Outlaw all supercharged and turbo charged engine combos OR have a seperate class/classes for them. Then its a dial in (Bracket racing). Problem cured !!!

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I'll go with the seperate class, it's the only thing that makes sense. I don't understand why Ford was allowed to do this anyway, seeing that they are about to introduce a larger N/A modular motor. A proper Cobra Jet would have been to build on the new engine platform a 428ci engine with all the good stuff and been done with it.

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Oh great!
Stick me with the 142 mph CJ's huh?

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No not really. The new CJ's would be in AA blown fast class and yours could be in ZZ turbo slow class !

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The only cure in my opinion is to follow OEM technical guidelines for boost pressure and NHRA follows it with mandatory pop-off valves calibrated and sealed by NHRA tech. If the OEM can't or won't provide the boost pressures, then they don't race. Turbo or SC engines should not be placed in a separate class as these are in fact what Detroit produces for todays market. But I also know that there is a range of acceptable boost pressures designed into these engines so they can be built to survive through warranty.
I know when I raced my '87 Shelby Z Daytona in A/FS there was an OEM boost standard for standard turbo-charged 2.2L Daytona's and another boost standard for the hi-po Shelby engine.
SCCA went to the SCCA provided calibrated & sealed pop-off valves back the early 90's when the Chrysler Turbo FWD cars began dominating the circuit. Once the boost levels were kept in bay, the dominance ceased.

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NHRA tech used to measure the pulley sizes on the 57 Fords and the Studebakers.
Why can't they do that now? Does the size keep changing every week, everytime they get a new Shelby letter?

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Yeah. Can't wait to race them , having a 50 MPH deficit.

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I dont think any of this boost pressure inspection will ever happen. # 1 the tech crew has been short changed 10 % of thier nothing pay for what they do now. # 2 here in Div 1 I think they have been told to cut out 3 employees from the crew at each race (not sure about the other divisions), Tech will be almost non existant it seems. Its not even a little bit fair to run cars like these supercharge CJ's heads up with the older muscle cars (FI or Carburated) in the same class. They make thier own atmosphere (cylinder pressure) for the intake charge. They may be what detroit produces today but they will put ALL of the rest of you out of business if they continue to run in the same class. $50,000 + stockers and S/S'ers will become worthles expensive bracket cars when someone decides to run one in S/S also. 2 different technolgies involved here.

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Yup, this really got derailed.......

The question is not about cj's, the question is about ALL THE REST THAT IS COMING!!!
You think GM or mopar won't have more turbo or supercharged cars soon? You think 2hp per cube from the factory with a smooth idle is never going to happen? How about 100hp per litre (355hp 3.5L ford)??
You can't stick your head in the ground, they are coming. Get off the cj rant, there are lots of threads already.
It looks the way forward is small cubes and boost. What will happen in a few years if electric cars take off? Charge between rounds then run 10 flat? Will there be a hundred threads on the "electric cj" or will people work together to include factory offerings?

So, what do you do about the NEW cars coming, seperate turbo/super class? That's one logical response. Except it adds classes.
What else? Leave them in regular classes but check pully's or max boost? Good, but will everybody be satisfied tech is good enough.
Anything else we could do?

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All very true! Boost vs NA is a no contest! Hopefully NHRA realizes that the CJ's are severly underated and changes hp rating to 500hp. Just like they did with Butner's boosted comp car a couple of years ago. I think they lowered his index .5 tenths or so after they underestimated it the first time.

A min. wt of 3920 lbs in AA/s(a) should slow those CJ's down enough.

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[QUOTE=
A min. wt of 3920 lbs in AA/s(a) should slow those CJ's down enough.[/QUOTE]

Yup, that'll learn 'em huh?

OK, what about the 300hp turbo 2012 cobalt? or the 400hp supercharged 2013 neon? Oh yeah, saddle them with 1000lb's, yup that's thinking.
Then the factories go "eh, screw em, lets go back to sponsoring funny car and nascar"

Good plan, lots of forethought!

How about some creative/helpfull/insightfull idea's for a common problem instead of harping time and again against fords! If this was truely about supercharged or turbo vehicles being a problem then every freaking thread on this site wouldn't degenerate back to "the cj's"
It's losing a lot of the credibility when certain people keep whining about one vehicle. Is it a cj issue or is it a super/turbo issue?
And for those with the narrow/short sight that think it's solely a cj issue, will you be here next year fixated on the next factory car? Challenger? Camaro? One at a time you'd rather whine then go for the problem/issue?

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The issue is that turbo/super cars can keep applying boost and gain advantage over the N/A competition without checks and balances; the Cobra Jet just became the object of complaint because it is ridiculously quick from the getgo and with prep can go way faster. Even the smaller boosted cars are formidable, as Mark already knows, and the modern equipment has more efficient heads.

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The neon and cobalt will be FWD vehicles. They will have a hard time fitting in to current Af/s class at those HP factor levels. If a car is horrible underfactored it should be raised immediately. Doesn't matter if it is a challenger/camaro, Turboed/Supercharged/NA or whatever.

At the current factor of 425 hp the CJ's weigh 3355 min in AA/s(a). So a factor of 500 hp would add less than 600 lbs to them. 570lbs to be exact. This is were they will have to be once someone starts to massage these CJ's for the current AA/s(a)combos to be competitive. IMO.

BTW when the Hurst hemi cudas and darts came out of the "factory" rated at 425 hp NHRA instantly adjusted the hp factor to 500. Seems like a precedence to me......

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I don't know Mark, you apply your skills to a SRT-4 Neon you might be only 10-20 mph down. 10-12000 rpm and 4 valve head? Sounds like a winner! Can you put an automatic in those?

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[QUOTE=goinbroke2;

So, what do you do about the NEW cars coming, seperate turbo/super class? That's one logical response. Except it adds classes.


It might add a few classes by seperating the turbo and supercharged cars from the NA cars but your going to loose a lot more classes by 2010 with the combining of stick and automatics, and the inclusion of the FWD cars with the RWD cars in thier coresponding wt class. They have already combined the trucks with the cars and the FI cars with the Carburated cars. So I dont see the problem of more classes. It will be LESS classes when all is said and done.

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[QUOTE=X-TECH MAN;106187][QUOTE=goinbroke2;

"...and the inclusion of the FWD cars with the RWD cars in thier coresponding wt class..." [/QUOTE]

I think NHRA would be better off to add the FWD cars into the corresponding Index, instead of weight break. Some, if not most, FWD cars would be severly hurt by this. Taking my car/class for example. DF/S, 19 pound class, 15.90 Index. T/SA, 19 pound class, 14.70 Index. The DF/S record is currently 14.72, by Nichole Stephenson, set in good air at Indy in April. Had Nichole been in T/SA, she wouldn't have even been under the Index, and she has the baddest car in our class!

AF/S, 13 pound class, 14.15 Index. K/SA, 13 pound class, 12.95 Index
Record: 13.62 Record: 11.38
BF/S, 16 pound class, 14.95 Index. P/SA, 16 pound class, 13.75 Index
Record: 13.87 Record: 12.17
CF/S, 17.50 pound class, 15.45 Index. Q-R/SA, 17-18 pound class, 14.10-14.35 Index
Record: 14.40 Record: 12.82 and 13.01
DF/S, 19 pound class, 15.90 Index. T/SA, 19 pound class, 14.70 Index
Record: 14.72 Record:13.27
EF/S, 25 pound class, 17.75 Index. W/SA, 24 pound class (no 25 pound RWD class), 16.95 Index.
Record: 16.25 Record: 15.83 (stick); 16.45 minimum (automatic)

Other than Steve Polhill with his stick EF/S, no other FWD class has a record close, let alone under, the RWD Index. And Steve has maybe one of the quickest FWD cars around anywhere, regardless of Class.

Anyone see the problem(s) here?

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I dont know if it will be according to index or wt. breaks but Im hearing they wont be on thier own in 2010. No more singles for class. The next year or so will be interesting to say the least.

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I see Ford has a 2010 Taurus SHO coming out with the Eco-tech 3.5L using TWIN turbo's and developing 375 HP! I don't know squat about this engine but it has a 6-speed auto-trans and AWD. I'd bet my last $100 that 450HP is a hand-held programer, exhaust & air filter away.
Hope the block and heads aren't some thin casting POS!
Geez, even Hundai has some 375 HP made in Korea engine. What's this world coming too? :eek:

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[QUOTE=Jeff Lee; I'd bet my last $100 that 450HP is a hand-held programer, exhaust & air filter away.
Just another reason to seperate the old technology and the new turbo and supercharged cars.

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That would make sense.

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Great, i start building one and then the class doesn't exist anymore. That's just what i wanted to hear! I guess i better get it done this year.

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Sean, I respect Terry but other sources don't agree with his information.

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American cars are no longer the pinnacle of design and technology. We have some serious work to do to catch up with Europe and Asia.

I'm sure I will catch some heat for this, but it's true. They have been building better passenger cars for 20 or 30 years and better performance in many cases for the last 10 or so.

I'm no foreign car lover, I just know when to call a spade a spade.

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[QUOTE=X-TECH MAN;106187][QUOTE=goinbroke2;

So, what do you do about the NEW cars coming, seperate turbo/super class? That's one logical response. Except it adds classes.


It might add a few classes by seperating the turbo and supercharged cars from the NA cars but your going to loose a lot more classes by 2010 with the combining of stick and automatics, and the inclusion of the FWD cars with the RWD cars in thier coresponding wt class. They have already combined the trucks with the cars and the FI cars with the Carburated cars. So I dont see the problem of more classes. It will be LESS classes when all is said and done.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. If they reduce other classes than seperate boost/NA classes would make sense and could work. Would it be A/SAB (boost) and A/SA (N/A) ? Yup that could work! Of course a IHRA Stock GT car would be a mouthfull, S/GTAAB or SS/GT/AA/B/LMNOP? LOL!

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I have no dog in any of these hunts, and won't, but I have some experience as regards supercharging and its effect on performance that might be of some interest.

I ran my car, a daily-driver, sometimes hobby-class drag strip, bracket car ('72 Valiant/360) with a very mild, normally-aspirated combination (475rpm idle) and ran 13.35 @ 102 mph with a 750cfm carb.
I decided that wasn't very exciting, so I made a change...
All I did to improve performance was to replace the 340 exhaust manifolds with headers, install an air gap-style intake manifold and a Vortech V-1, S-Trim (entry level, the smallest blower Vortech makes, I think).

The first time out for this new forced induction combination (yesterday,) the car ran 1,000-foot times of 9.74 @ 106 mph. That, according to the online computers I use, equates to a high 11-second quarter-mile e.t. (should be better, but it was very cold and there was no traction; 1.81-sec. 60-foots) with a quarter-mile speed extrapolated from the 106@ 1,000-feet, to 120, for the quarter-mile.

I am not claiming that these figures are etched in stone, but they were the most accurate 1,000-foot to quarter-mile conversions I could find.

This was with a measly 10 pounds of boost, and no intercooler.

So, basically, my car picked up virtually a second-and-a-half and 18 mph with this smallish blower, added by a shadetree, backyard mechanic (me) with no diagnostic equipment and truthfully, I haven't even set the timing with a light... just listened to it and adjusted the initial timing "by ear."

What I'm saying is, add a blower to an engine and you have access to a whole new world of power...

That's all.

The rules need to address this.

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I really don't get the point of this post. We all know that forced induction is a performance modification.

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GUMP,
All I was saying is, if an idiot like me can bolt on 150 horsepower in his backyard under a shade tree, so-to-speak, for a first time out run, with no experience, what must a factory effort be able to accomplish, and there are no RULES to deal with it.

Pulley sizes that determine boost, and therefore horsepower, need to be addressed SOMEWHERE, don't you think? They're not, as far as I can see.... There appears to be NOTHING in the 2009 rulebook about this.

NHRA needs to get with it; it ain't 1955 any more... That was my point.

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If you want to control boost in either the FI turbo or supercharged cars, simply limit the injector size to stock. Easy for tech to inspect and will definitely limit how much boost one can run, regardless of calibration or fuel pressure.

Those with carbs would be exempt. Especially if they are intelligent enough to make them work :^)

Rich

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I think that is what I said in post #6 of this thread.

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That is an unfair suggestion. And to top that, it would be an almost impossible task to verify fuel injectors.

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Guys,
I'm going to let you in on a little information;
1) Yes, more boost can make more power, but just like your air compressor, pressure makes heat, there is a point where the gains in boost are artificial due to the added heat. Tim Kish can tell you exactly when this occurs.

2) If you work on flowing more air into your cylinders, your boost actually goes down, and get this, your power goes up. So give up on the boost limiting idea.

3) Superchargers are not controlled like a turbocharger with a waste gate, therefore the manifold pressure changes with atmospheric pressure, it simply increases the atmospheric pressure by a given amount irrespective of barometer. Bottom line, the supercharged cars behave just like a normally aspirated combination with changes to weather. Turbocharged cars use the waste gate to control to manifold absolute pressure, and therefore can maintain consistent boost pressures regardless of atmospheric pressure.

4) Do you know why most of the "desireable" combinations in Stock and Super Stock are primarily based on engines that were not the "Hi Perf" versions like the '70 LS-6? They are based on the weaker lower performance offerings. The weaker engines are farther from their ultimate performance potential. This is where the NHRA's horsepower factoring system is flawed. The high performance combinations are handicapped from the minute the numbers hit the book. The new engines coming from the automakers are all high performance and are way closer to their power potential than any of the engines from the musclecar era.

That's all for now.
See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

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Wayne Kerr said:

>>>"The high performance combinations are handicapped from the minute the numbers hit the book."

Depends on what the numbers are, Wayne.

Just how "handicapped" do you think the 2008 Cobra Jets are?

Ask some of the people who run in Class against those supercharged ponys and see if you can find ONE who thinks the new CJ's are "handicapped."

How do you justify your comment about high performance cars being "handicapped" in the case of these formidable Mustangs? If you think they're actually "handicapped," you may be a cult of one....

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"A good start would be to police pulley sizes on super charged cars."

THAT is what you said.

What ~I~ said was that the problem has not been addressed and that there are no rules in the Rulebook relative to the problem, and there aren't.

You can't "police" something if it's not breaking any rules. No rules yet exist that relate to boost or pulley sizes.

I was contending that NHRA needs to MAKE some rules that would specify SOMETHING concrete for them to "police."

But, until they (NHRA) do, there's nothing going to happen. Guaranteed.