SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

If starting from scratch on a new Super Stock car what would the cost difference be going 3 speed auto trans or stick shift. I'm looking for total cost comparison, all parts included to run a auto or stick. Thanks

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

When I bought everything to run a stick it was around 5000.00 and that was with a used Jerico, new Ram clutch, Aluminum flywheel, and bellhousing. A new DR4-4 is over 4000.00 by itself. ED

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Thanks for the reply Ed. From what I understand, a new 3 speed auto could be $5-$6k alone. Are the Jerico and G-force that are used in SS clutchless?

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

I am thinking that initial costs would be about equal. The Jerico & the G-Force would both be clutchless. The stick stuff is so good these days that in my opinion the only way to go. You will not regret it.

Allan

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Are there any disadvantages to a stick combo? How often does the clutch need to be adjusted or serviced? Are there any issues with hot lapping a stick car? Can the clutch be adjusted to change reaction times? Thanks for the replies

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Disadvantages if you like driving a stick none. Automatic guys will say parts breakage. If you have a good trans and the clutch is set up right you won't break alot of stuff. I have a Jerico at home in a box in alot of pieces as a reminder of what happens when things are not right. Servicing depends on how much racing you do. Adjustments(base/counterweight) are made for each track and the conditions that are present. Yes you can adjust air gap for reaction times. You won't have to worry about hot lapping at an national event. The ones i've been to you run at 8:00am sit for 6 hours and run again.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

6 hours between first and second round at NHRA D4 races is common, but in the late rounnds they rush you back to the lanes. How does heat effect the clutch and the performance of the car? Ed will you be running any of the NHRA Div. 4 races this year?

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

the cost is about the same for both, but with the clutch technology today there is a lot more adjustabuilty that you can do with the clutch and breakeage is down to a min,there was a guy who raceed in pro eliminator who ran a liberty trans and he was silly consistant with this and finished second in points in 2007,automatics on the other hand can get very costly due to the numbers of converters that have to be tried to to get the best performance gmonde

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

The cost is about the same, but make sure you do some research on the correct transmission and clutch for your application. The Gforce and Jerico that you need has to be "clutch assisted". The sliders are different. One is legal, one is not. Also, there have been improvements in the designs of both transmission types so make sure you get the right version if you are buying used. If you are a newby, don't experiment. Buy a new jerico with a long vertigate and get an advance clutch from youngblood or at leaast a mcleod softloc. It will save you some pain. The autos have gotten way expensive and most do a lot of convertor testing and purchasing. the problem with some racers perception on the stick shifts is that it is hard to drive and breakage problems. That is not the case with the stuff that is out there now. You still need to scrutinize the drivetrain, but with a transbrake,you would have to do that anyway. I can tell you that it is a heck of a lot more fun than an automatic and going laps is not a big deal.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Darrin

I made an error in an earlier post. The transmission must be clutch assisted to run in stock or super stock.

Sorry for the misinformation.

Allan

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Darrin I will be running D4 races this year if my job allows(im a State Trooper and they like to come up with last minute operations for us to do) We will be at Dallas in April, both Houston races, Crandall(IHRA), maybe Tulsa. Hope to see you out there. Were easy to find were one of about 3 people there with an open trailer(with my buddy Tony Cowell)

PS The best thing to do when getting started is to ask the guys doing it. They really know what's going to work. I talked to Jim Voth, Jim Schaechter, Brad Zaskowski, etc

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Thanks to everyone for the advice. So, do you actually have to use the clutch to shift the car with a clutch assisted trans? That may sound like a dumb question, but I seem to remember a thread on here that talked about being able to shift without using the clutch. Also what's the proper way to stage a stick car consistently? Do you use some sort of line lock that engages when the clutch is pushed in? Ed, I plan on making the first few divisional races. I will look for you. That Tony Cowell fella runs pretty good. I parked next to him at the Dallas Divisional in 05.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

can anyone help on clutch suggestion for 3000 lb clutchless g-force for g/sm?

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

hey randy give nick boninfante a call,he sells a very nice reasonably priced unit.a couple of the guys that run with the umtr(united manual transmission racers)have his single disc unit and love it,it has a very wide tuning window.a friend has it in his 79 camaro it weighs 3400 lbs and runs 9.50's and is clutch assisted but is getting ready to switch to a liberty clutchless.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Darrin, check PM, Joe.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

thaks scotty.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

to darin, roll into the first bulb, put a small amount of pressure on the brake, roll the rest of the way in and wait. use your linelock to put the brake pressure on.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Thanks for the info Randy!

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Randy,
I have a nice Ray Franks (DZE) dual disc 7" with a titanium floater and 142 tooth flywheel that would work great in G/SM coupled with a pair of M/T radials.
We ran this combo the last sesaon we ran comp in H/SM and it worked great.

brad@zaskowskibuilders.com

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

randy also i was on the umtr stickshift website today and seen that tim hyatt is advertising a couple of used clutches in the parts classifieds,they seem to be a good deal you could give tim a call also,there's quite a few guys that use him also and are very happy.we have a north and south chapters and probably 6 or 7 guys up north use tim.also on the cover of the new dragster i see pat ross uses him to,its on the quarter panel hrs is tim hyatt.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

I use Tim Hyatt's clutch. He has good stuff. ED

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

As you step in, you'll spend just as much either way or at least the difference will be negligible. The problems with an automatic are you will no doubt need more than one convertor or at the very least you will have to pull it out and send it in for changes you will eventuall learn are needed. At $1200 or so for a quality hand built / custom convertor (at least $900), owning a few can break the bank.
The nice thing about a stick (besides the fun factor, which it is), if you buy the right clutch assembly the first time, it will be all you need and it's infinitially adjustable.
You can buy clutch assemblies from all kinds of sources but there is only one manufacturer that TRULY knows how to provide the right consultation from install to what to do at the track and is almost always just a phone call away. That's Advanced Clutches (note to administrator; I see other sources named on this thread). You can PM me if you need help but it's a google away.
FYI, a good cluch assembly and a great assembly can be three-tenths (or more) apart. So you have to ask yourself, how much would two to three tenths cost if it were up to the engine alone?
You asked about hot-lapping. It's not an issue. In fact, assuming you have the clutch adjusted correctly. It's less of an issue with a stick than an auto as an auto trans retains much more heat (fluid temp) and the a/t trans transmitts more heat back into the engine. I've only made one final in a national and in three days of racing the ET varied only .03 racing morning to late afternoon; three days straight.
As a former a/t racer with all the delay box and auto-shift tricks of the day, I'll say this is the most fun racing I've ever had. Would never go back. But if you don't get the right parts, it will be a major pain in the ***. And as most race parts, it will be more expensive in the long run. Not counting lost rounds.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Thanks Jeff. Which one would be faster, auto or stick in a car with the same weight. Also in a modified class with a weight break given to the auto is it worth carrying the extra weight to run the stick. It would seem like the stick would be more efficient overall. But Its hard to imagine it would be worth carrying an extra 250#.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

thaks brad, thanks scotty, will be running comp this fall. and darren, i have limited experience with an automatic but i can run quicker with standard transmission. that is carrying the extra weight. but the fastest guys in nhra are autos.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

All apples to apples the stick is usually better. A 250# weight penalty would be pretty stiff. But in S/SS there are no weight penalties (unless there is in the modified class). There are instances were the index is harder on stick combos. I run SS/G-H-I and the index is only .05 apart per class instead of the normal .015. Another example is SS/J vs. SS/JA. That index is .015 apart but the fastest SS/J will out run the fastest SS/JA on a heads-up run while the SS/JA will out qualify the SS/J.
I think it usually boils down to many of the stick racers are just stubborm and determined to race a stick. Many aren't even chasing records or low qualifying times. But some, like me, are. That's just my bag. Dig it. Groovy....:o

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Darrin are you going to be in Houston next weekend? If so look me up. ED

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

All this talk about manual trans has me interested.

My latest build up is a 1990 Firebird that I plan to race in local brackets. The plan is a relatively mild build up to run low 10's. So just how would a four speed manual be in this combination?

Thanks
Larry Woodfin

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

larry the 4speed will hold up just fine,and be more efficient than an automatic.this part of the equation i hope jeff lee will correct where i'm wrong.the misnomer is that you have to work on them all the time that however is as far from the truth as you can get.if you build it bullet proof to begin with you shouldn't have to work on except for general maintance.i was talking to a guy here in cincy on this very subject at our first stick race of the year(i help with the umtr its a manual transmission series its in Ohio) his name is robby kropfeld,his dad drove the miss budwieser hydroplane racve boat for many years,robby is a very accomplished driver has won several big money bracket races.robby had said that he would like to build a stick to run with us,but he didn't want to have to work on it all the time.a friend dave stehlin who is the director of umtr has a all steel 79 z-28 that weighs 3400 lbs and runs 9.50,it is powered by a 415 small block and a clutch assisted jerico,he put a good slipper clutch in it and put approximately 300 passes on it,at that point had the clutch rebuilt and put a new ring and pinion just to be safe.also checked the trans and everything was a ok and rebuilt the motor.and all of this was with no more than general oil changes,valve adjustments and every 30 passes would do a clutch adjustment.if you would like you can go to the umtr website and ask all kinds of question everybody over there loves to talk stick cars and answer questions.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Yes ED, I will be there and will look for you.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Jeff, I have been looking into the SS/Modified Stock classes and the way I read the rules there is a weight break for the autos. I forget exactly how it reads, but it talks about 250lbs or some percentage of weight. If its 250lbs extra for a stick, thats a lot to overcome in my opinion. The index is the same for the autos and the sticks in the modified stock class. SS/AS SS/BS SS/CS and so on.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

In SS/AS - SS/DS you can remove 5% for automatic, up to 250 lbs. max.
SS/CS for example - 300 ci X 10.5 lbs = 3150 less 5% (157.5 lbs) = 2992.5 minimum weight.
Remember, Modified Stock weight includes driver when figuring class.

Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$
 

Scotty D,
I can speak from experience that if you are not getting help from the manufacturer; basically sold a pile of parts and told to go at it, you will be under the car a lot. Not only in making clutch tuning adjustments (often times pulling the bellhousing), but you can expect more broken parts. That ads to the frustrations, expense and lost rounds. I've been there.
It wasn't until I started using my current supplier I found the value in getting the parts set-up to your application and having the ability to call the owner if there was a problem with conditions and how to adjust for them.
If you buy were I buy, follow the instructions (often seems to be a big problem), you'll enjoy the racing. If you fight it, it will make you miserable. It's that simple.
And I built my car for a stick. That's a Dana 60 stuffed with MW parts (steel spool, not aluminum), MW CM driveshaft and MW yokes. The only weak link I've had show up is inadequate leaf spring u-bolts and not boxing in the spring pads. Nothing else has ever broken since 1998(all though I don't race as often as others).

Regarding the weight penalty, my first impression is NHRA must have saw the need for penalyzing stick cars in those class'es. That should tell you something. Second, if I had a small high winding engine, I would not want an auto trans. And I don't know that part of the rule book, but I believe you can run a 5-speed stick. All the better.