Any ignition guru's out there
 

While at Byron a couple of weeks ago the ol wagon was doing a pop-pop at the hit of the throttle, and then some mild missing at the top end. We tried THREE carbs, worked on the jetting each time, to no avail.

The folks at MSD said something about RF noise.

Purchased a shielded cable, redid the trounds, removed and replaced the multitude of connections from the changing of components over the years. Put it all back as per the MSD Tech Book (actually, the way it was but cleaner). Fired it up and it chugs and quits like it's out of phase. HMMMM. Took a spare main lead and changed the phasing. Oddly enough it ran the same. WHAT'S GONG ON HERE. Two slow records in IHRA is one thing, but a car that won't start is a real problem.

OH, a new coil too....

Is the MSD bad? I disconnected the tach and all perriferals and wired it as a straight MSD with the same results.

I need serious help - I'm no electrician.

Peace, Rev. Mopar you can Email me at Racewthrev@aol.com

make sure all your grounds have a good connection.
Also check all you wring for chafing or bare spots.

REV, IN ADDITION TO CHECKING ALL GROUNDS, MAKE SURE THAT YOUR BATTERY IS FULLY CHARGED. MAKE SURE ENGINE AND BATTERY ARE BOTH GROUNDS. AND HAVE YOU TRIED CHANGING YOUR REV LIMITER CHIP ALSO. ALSO CHECK THE CAP A ROTOR BUTTON. IF THOSE ARE ALL GOOD, AND YOUR ENGINE IS CORRECTLY TIMED, I WOULD SAY TO TAKE THE BOX TO BRISTOL WHEN THEY ARE THERE, AND HAVE MSD CHECK IT.

MYRONARL1119

An MSD ignition will work properly if you ground it with a rusty bolt. From my experience with their systems the only problems with EMI, RFI, electrical noise what ever name you want to give it has no ill effects on any but their Digital systems. You did'nt say if your timing appeared to be correct , which I'm assuming it is. Does the engine exibit black smoke, what do the plugs look like? Do you have good blue spark coming from the coil? If you don't own one I would get a spark tester and an MSD tester and diagnose the problem from the trigger source ( crank trigger or Dist. ) out . There are a multitude of possiblities you must have a logical and strategic approach which means you have to see what isn't the problem then eliminate down to the actual cause. Looking at the plus and for signs of black or gray smoke can be some tell tale signs. Unfortunately the new BUZZ words today for any mysterious missfire is always interference, RFI, EMI , back feed I've heard them all in 25 years of repairing cars and racing them I've yet to find any of them to be a problem. Good luck and please let us know how you're progressing. Joe

Rev.,check and make sure the two wires that run from the dist. to the msd box do not run close to the coil ,if it does it will cause a bad miss.

swap another crank pickup on it,I had a bad pickup causing the same type of problem.Does it have a start retard ? Disconnect it,seen weird problems with those also.

A simple thing for high rpm miss is to decrease plug gap. Try decreasing plug gap by 0.010" and see if it helps. If it does help, it's something in the ignition.

Chris Hill
Spec 125 Light

Check your distributor gear, disconnect the 2 step if you have one, and make sure your wires are compatible with the ignition box you are running, solid core vs. spiral core. Ground the ignition box directly to the battery. I also had a high end miss which was traced to the alternator I was running.
Good luck,

Joe Martens B/Stick 3969

Rev,
I had a problem similar to that, coulbn't find it. When the electric water pump was replaced (after it quit working) the problem was fixed. Maybe RFI from the electric motor??

Adger Smith

Can you humor us and let us know how its grounded.

I went through a problem with it breaking up which was caused by a lack of good grounds.
Brian

The car has grounds as follows.

Braided body ground to block. ground from block to frame, ground from battery to both the engine and frame - the MSD is grounded on the battery negative. I have a ground wire from the ateering column to the engine as well. Of course there are other grounds for switches and stuff.

I have disconnected all of the rpm switches that operated the retard unti and have the box wired as ignition only. I've unpluged the tach, removed the high rpm limit chip.

I was attempting to cure the double or tripple pop at the launch AND the light pop at the top of the gears. All I did was add a shielded ground and now the thing won't start - well it starts and burps and grunts then quite. I've even reversed the green and purple wires in the lead as a validation.

On Oh S--t I didn't mention. When I was getting ready to change the cable I thought I had turned the master switch off but hadn't and of course the first thing I did was short out the main (heavy to battery) lead to the MSD box. Not for long as it only went CRACK once. I wouldn't have thought that would hurt the box, but who knows. I wired it back to begin with the same way it was wired before - timing was checked before I did the work - yes it was skipping around and I did use a non degree wheel style lite. I would have thought at WORST I would have had a car that would run as it did with no improvement but also with no loss in power. Now I have a car that won't even run. I've gone over the wiring a half dozen times.

HELP

Peace, Rev.

I'm sure that did not do the box any good. Most of that stuff has some fusible traces built in to prevent extreme damage in case of a short like that, I'd say you blew a trace.

Can you not run the engine on just a distributor and coil? Just a question, not knowing what distributor you have.

Alan Roehrich


Bring "AA" classes to NHRA Stock Eliminator!

It's an MSD pro billit distributor. Don't think it will operate that way.

This has rapidly become a pain in the rump... I hate electrical work. Engines are child's play compared to electric stuff for me.

Peace, Rev.

Correct, a Pro Billet (non "Ready to Run") does not have a module, just a magnetic pickup. It cannot fire a coil by itself.

To test the pickup, attach a voltmeter to the magnetic trigger wires (disconnect them from the box, you're testing the distributor) and set it to "AC volts". Spin the distributor, either with the engine, or by hand if you have it out. It should make 2 <-> 6 volts AC.

The signs actually point to a bad box, but check the distributor, and try a "known good" coil.

Alan Roehrich


Bring "AA" classes to NHRA Stock Eliminator!

Got a spare box?

Other quick tests with a volt/ohm meter:

Make sure that when running, you have 13 volts or better on the positive leads for the MSD.

There should be little resistance and no voltage on the ground wires.

Alan Roehrich


Bring "AA" classes to NHRA Stock Eliminator!

Replace the coil wire & check the carbon contact in the dist cap. Take the on/off master switch out of the system. For test purposes put all the connecting wires on one side of the switch.

Adger Smith

replace the rotor cap in distributor

david cron

Tested the box, it is working. MSD feels it's the pickup in the distributor. Dave, haven't heard from ytou in a long time. Hope all's well. We miss Music City.... Especially now that we have a class car.

The cap and rotor will be replaced too. Hope that's all there is to this problem.

Peace, and THANKS everyone, Rev.

Koop!
As you know by now, Wally Parks, Tom Compton, Len and your local Div director OWES you a new distributor. (And a case of your favortie oil,) So simply make that phone call and I believe it will be taken care of.

Your pal in need,
(indeed?)
BF



cheese.......







"The future isn't what it used to be."

Brucie

Come on now.... You kow you want to move to East Tennessee.....

By the way, Ron Blair (sheriff Pontiac) says HI and promises if you move here he will never give you a ticket...

Peace, Rev.

P.S. New distributor coming along with two cases of Syntec compliments of NHRA.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Rev,
I'd be surprised if the pick up is the problem. Most often, they are either good or bad, as in they will either run fine or not run. My MSD billet distributors all have Ford late model (88 or so?) pickups.

Alan Roehrich


Bring "AA" classes to NHRA Stock Eliminator!

Alan and all. My problem NOW isn't the miss we were chasing. NOW WE CAN'T GET IT TO START AND STAY RUNNING.... I've checked the box and it is good doing the MSD suggested test, I've removed the tach and all the other "stuff" hooked to it. I've put a new pick up in the dietributor - Thanks Alex D - I've tested the wires. I've looked at the cap and rotor and they appear fine - I've "cleaned up" thw wiring. We've tried TWO coils.

What started as an attempt to fix a strange anomolie has turned into a dark oddesy. At least it ran before.

Any suggestions now that the obvious has been covered>

Could it be my ignition switch?

Peace, Rev.

Alan, you are absolutely correct USUALLY a pick up is either good or bad, but when your car won't start you try anything. I might even try standing on my head.

Your ignition switch will be easy to test. Use either a test light or a volt/ohm meter to verify that you have voltage on the output side of the switch when it is on, at all times.

Do you have, or can you borrow, a known good MSD box? I know they say it passed their test, but I still suspect you have a defective box. The reason I say that is that if I remember the sequence of your problems correctly, the car would actually start and run, until after you dropped a wire or otherwise shorted the MSD box. For that reason, I am very suspicious of that MSD box.

Don't stand on your head, your glasses will likely fall off, and we know where that will leave you.

Alan Roehrich


Bring "AA" classes to NHRA Stock Eliminator!

try another rotor, also maybe cap, but try rotor first, if this works i will explain later.

david cron

Just a heads up,

If you are using the Adapt-A-Cap which takes the large ford cap and the 2 piece adjustable rotor for phasing the rotor mount to the dist shaft can come loose.

It's hard to check without really looking for it.

Turn off all the stuff you don't need to keep running.

Fill the carburetor and shut off the pump, keep the fan and water pump off and then try and start it.

Did you static time it (twist the dist with the ignition and timing light on) before trying to start it?

Take a spark plug cut off the ground strap, plug the dist end of the coil wire on the plug, ground the plug with a jumper wire and then crank the motor and check for spark. It should be a good one.

Just giving you something else to check along the way.

If you have already checked all of this stuff, then never mind.

Bob

Our local ignition guy was checking a 6AL for the third time( the other two times the box checked good ) but the guy could not fire the car when he got home. On the third try the box again was checking good when the technician tilted the box and the thing was bad. It was something inside the box causing it to work sometimes and not work other times. So beware.

Greg

Rev.,

I'm not trying to imply you haven't already checked, but make sure you're not on a wild goose chase here. What you think MAY be an electrical problem, may not be an electrical problem after all, as I'm speaking from experience. In Englishtown 2 years ago I developed a top end miss. The car still ran pretty well otherwise other than this top end miss. The main symptom was that my tach was fluttering like crazy, and I had seen that before when I had a coil that had gone bad, and took the MSD out with it. And I knew the RPM of the motor wasn't fluctuating +/- 3000 rpm when I was in high gear going down the track. So, I naturally assumed it was the coil / MSD problem again.

Well, to make a VERY long story (almost 2 years long) as short as possible, I believe I finally found the problem...two broken valve spring. I was CERTAIN this was an electrical problem, and changed basically everything electrical on the car: MSD, coil, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, crank trigger pickup, battery, fuel pumps, ignition switch, two-step, rev-limiter, I checked, cleaned, and ran new grounds, and I'm now even in the process of re-wiring the car because of it. But, earlier this spring I took the motor to be freshed, and my engine builder found the broken springs. I run through the valves at least every 10 runs on my car, and didn't find these, but I'm now 99.9% positive this is what the problem was, not an electrical problem like I had thought.

Anyway, take this as a word of caution. When this first happened at Englishtown I took my box to MSD, and they gave me the same RF noise story. That's when I started replacing parts to no avail. A LOT of money later, and I'm embarrassed to admit that I probably could have avoided all of this simply by checking my valve springs more thoroughly.

Hope you find the problem soon! Good luck!

Jason Oldfield
S/G & S/ST 1838

Defiinately check the box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 The fact you shorted it or whatever probably blew something inside of it.... Try another box first ,if none is available try putting it back together without a box ,just a coil and distributor see if it will start. These things are real finicky when it comes to electrical surges and shorts etc. I'll bet it IS the box nothing else probably been going bad for a while and that final surge you talked about did it in. Comp 387

If you're using a stock ignition switch in a race car get rid of it!

Thanks for the insight. I will look more closely at the valve spring. However, I don't think that would account for the car not even wanting to fire now. I've taken the distributor out and spun it with the ignition on and a plug grounded to the intake. It throws a pretty mean spark. Just won't start when compression is added to the mix...

You guys are great.

Thanks, Rev.

For those who do not know what Alan means about me losing my glasses it goes back a long way. He, as many of you also do, knows that even with glasses I cannot see well at all - my work and driving days are numbered - and without glasses I would be a terror. Bumping into stuff even more than I do now.... Glen Young and I used to be referred to as the "two Magoo's"

I've been watching this thread, I haven't heard if you actually checked for compression on tis engine. I would checkit if not , you said that when you spun the dist. you had spark correct? well if you have spark that way then you will have it when the engine is turning the dist. Here is what I would do Put the dist. back in the engine correctly set on #1 TDC, have someone crank the engine while you look with a timing light you should see your static timing figure at each flash. I saw someone post that they have had rotors become loose in dists. I have also seen this but only on the crank trigger versions. If you have consistant spark showing at your static timing(ie. base timing) you are not experiencing an ignition fault.As I had previously posted the ald MSD's just work or they don't work there is no grey area with them, once again insure that you have the dist. properly phased to #1 TDC event and have someone crank for you while you look with a timing light if you see your base timing at each spark event than you are NOT experiencing an ign. related event. Good luck Joe. please keep us updated and please check the comp. as it is important to check the basics

It's been ten days without a post!!!!!!

Have you guys got a handle on the problem yet?

Fill us in.

Bob

aaaaaah NO....

I think it's a starter thing now as I cannot even turn the engine over with a breaker bar.

Did a compression test - all right on the money. But ever since, the engine won't budge. I think the drive is engaged . Either that or I blew it up with it not running. Bout my luck I'd say. I'll dig further into it soon. I'm so disappointed that I've kind of lost hear for the rest of this season... Over the winter I'll pull it, freshen it and rewire it.... THEN if it doesn't work I'll sit on a rock and contemplate....

I do appreciate all the help, but I think the engine will probably have to come out. And all this on the heels of a great article in Mopar Action, two national records in one weekend, two pay days in one weekend, and a tive day stint as number one in Div points.... We're out of sight now.

Peace, Rev.

If you are running an alternator, make sure it's OK. I had a broken diode and it gave me fits. Changed the alternator and it was fixed

If you can't turn the motor over with a breaker bar, something is seriously wrong inside that motor. I don't know if it's possible or not in your car, but you may want to drop the pan before yanking the whole motor. You may find something silly like the oil pump pickup came out (of course, even if that was the case, I'm not sure if it were my motor that I'd be comfortable not yanking the motor and going through the whole thing).

Good luck...keep us posted...

Jason Oldfield
S/G & S/ST 1838

It'll be coming out soon I'm sure. Gotta clean a bay out in the garage before I can do it. Just wish I had more time.

Just a strange thing altogether, car ran but had some "pop" issues under heavy load at the launch and then at the top of the gears - about 5000. Then we "fixed" that problem and by all accounts and tests, it should run, but wouldn't. Did the compression test - cool. Finished that up and decided to turn it over with the breaker bar to see if the distributor was in fact rotating - and on about the third pull it would pull no more. It has never lost oil pressure, but that doesn't mean alot I guess.

I feel like singing HI HO HI HO IT'S OFF TO WORK I GO.... But If I were to start that, I'd probably be stuffed in jail for disturbing the peace or impersonating a dwarf.

Peace, Rev.

Damn Rev, hate to hear that. If we can help, let me know.

Alan Roehrich


Bring "AA" classes to NHRA Stock Eliminator!

I had a miss that was caused when i removed the ballast resister and reiwred the 4 wires back together wrong. It started missing at 3500 and broke up till i shifted. cost me 6000.00 to trace the miss. I replaced every wire, ground, plug wires, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel filter, carbs, and even the electric fan. It took a summit tech rep to finally come to my house and figure out that the wiring was wrong where the ballast resister was previously. I didn't catch it after removing the ballast cause it was the end of the year and i didn't start trhe motor till spring. By then i forgot about removing the resister. Mopars, you got to love em. Good luck. After you find the problem please enlighten everyone with the culprit.

Hey Rev,there is a post about a very similar problem to yours on the Moparts board,maybe reading that will help.

Nautilus Racing