Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I noticed something this week at Atlanta. There were a lot of fans looking at Jimmy Ronzello's car. And a lot of them were young. I also noted that there were more fans inspecting my "wierd car" than the early style Camaro parked next to me.
I you guys want to make stock and superstock a "notalgia" thing. It's all over but the car crushing.
These younger fans can relate to a new Mustang, or a Challenger, Or believe it or not my "lowly" Neon.
They were even born when those older muscle cars were 10 years old.
And due to the hard but very true fact, that old people are a dying breed. nhra better push the newer cars. If they have any hope of surviving.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Dont laugh at Neons, Darrel Cox is 30 miles from us. When we owned Piedmont Dragway we had Darrel Cox neon day, figured maybe an extra 30 cars on top of a regualar TNT day. We had 125 neons, and at least 300 people. No one over 30. 1/2 of them ran in the 7's in the 1/8. We then did a Carolina Honda day with the similar result.

Herb jr

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Art and Herb, I think you are both unfortunantly correct. That is why I am excited to see any of the new cars hitting the track. Don't get me wrong, I love the old cars, but maybe that is because I'm old.
New Mustang, new Challenger, or Camaro bring them on. It will be GREAT for the sport we all love.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I remember the first race of the year at the old Little Rock Dragstrip in 1967. A local dealer had a new '67 Camaro 350 SS in Stock Eliminator. Also present were about two dozen '55-'57 Chevy Jr. Stockers from around the mid-South, many of them record holders, known names, etc. We were all over the Camaro, even though it was a slug. Similar deal, different calendar.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Honest question here and not meant as a put down though some will take it that way. If they are so popular then why did the sport compact concept fail so badly ??? Even the bikini show couldnt keep it floating !

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

When the new wears off, they'll all leave for the next new thing. Not just the next new race car, the next new fad. It's called a short attention span. Seen it before. Watched two grass roots sportsman style motorsports practically die and never really recover from it.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Great question Terry, my opinion is the expense of building these cars are more then most young people can afford. Their format was designed for heads up racing only. I do not think they had a bracket class, and if they did it was not promoted very well. I think that was the main reason for the low car counts at the import races. Heads up racing is cool, but it will only survive if you have major sponsors bringing in the money. To grab a fan base you have to better than whats out there, and for most fans, top fuel car is more exciting to watch then the fastest front wheel drive cars, even if they went 7's, it still would not appeal to the mass's.

The only way they could have survived is to have a strong grass roots membership like NHRA, which takes many years to developed.

I think if they had a structure like NHRA they might have grown. Even though NHRA is not perfect you can still build a car relativity cheap. The bracket part of stock and super stock keeps racing affordable. I know its easy to bash NHRA, but if you think about, it is a pretty good system. Stock has been around for 40 years with cars that are older then many that race them. Although there is improvement to make it better, you have to give credit for NHRA lasting this long for a sportsman category and even for the entire NHRA survival. With the fuel shortage of the seventies, the horrible economy of the late seventies, the high gas prices of a year ago and the poor economy we are in now, its a testament to NHRA's survival. Maybe the import's should have followed a model that has had success in good times and bad.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

The import racers that I know are mainly younger (low buck guys). They are very active on test and tune/grudge nights, but they are not keen on the rules and expense of sanctioned racing.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Thats what BRACKET racing was invented for.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

And it is also why bracket racing is so strong. The stands at sanctioned events are filled with spectators that run imports and/or brackets. The topic of this thread is "Fan Appeal". I agree with Art on this one. The younger spectators are drawn to cars that they can relate to. Just like the fans of 1969.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Artie, That last sentence says it all.
The imports and FWD's turn in force everytime Speedworld opens the gates for a T&T night, same as everywhere else, I'm sure.

I was just thinking the other night when I was out there, how NHRA's "enhancements " over the years ,have made it virtually impossible for a beginning racer to compete in any kind of structured "class "
racing. Even if the late model FWD's were competitive , just think what it would cost them to try it.Tow vehicles, trailers, $300 entries, 4-5 days off of work, $10 approved gas, $50 numbers and so on.
The average young guy could never afford to get started in class racing, the way we were able to.

There are some here who say about NHRA "what does it matter, another $20 -50 here or there? I can afford it"
Fact is, everytime that happens , they are pricing a few more potential racers out of their program, or forcing out a few more veterans, who've had enough.

If someone could figure out how to get these new guys into some form of structured racing they could afford, he'd have a huge customer base to draw from.....
And please don't suggest the Summit Bracket Racing series. Expecting them to compete against 30 year veteran racers in RWD cars, is not the answer.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I think most on here agree on this as I do. These new cars should be welcomed by all! The HP factors are what's all screwed up!

Just looking at the Mustang and the Challenger. Under factored by atleast 100HP. These cars are and will be built by current members and will only benefit those who can afford to spent $75000+ just to outrun all others who have spent years of r&d to make their combos as fast as they are.

This is just 1 example of many new cars that will be coming down the pipe line soon. My point is; I dont think these new cars will bring in hardly any new blood to our community of racing. VERY FEW will be able to afford it!! VERY FEW will put up with the BS and time it takes to attend a div or a National event! Maybe a net loss of racers who feel tired of getting **** on and will just quit!

So when it is all said and done I feel will we will be racing against the same old freinds as always. NHRA better take GOOD care of its current members while trying to bring in the younger generation!!

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

nhra screwed the sport compact racing up. It got off to a great start. Then they let the high dollar guys come in and dominate. You don't have a race car but if you did how would you like it if you had to run a couple of cars in your class that had a half million dollar budget for the season. It discouraged most of the racers. And they wound up with 3 and 4 car fields.
They did it to themselves. The sport compact racers or fans are there they just have no place to race.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Terry I would have to counter and say to you "thats what Nostagia racing was created for" .

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Art
No disrespect and dont want to get off topic, but what you said in your last post is exactly how most people in AA and A/S feel about the new Mustang! With the full force backing of Ford how can anybody compete!! I understand that the odds of getting a heads up is small but stock and ss is perfomance based and (most) strive to be the fastest in their class!

just my 2 ents worth

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I believe it is totally different The mustangs are race cars the older cars had their hp done with mufflers, very small cams, stock pistons, stock fuel pumps Etc.Etc.
If you put the older cars back to the way they came from the factory. I would agree 100%.
Even the race hemis and max wedge cars came with cast iron manifolds.
The early cars have an awful lot of enhancements done by the racers. The mustangs are done by the factory they come with race headers, a sfi balancer etc.
Yes they are going to make a lot more power than the factory number. But so does a 427 chevy or a street hemi.
How much money does it take to build a competitive a or aa stocker. I'm sure you will wind up close to if not more than the mustangs.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Why dont the FWD guys build something really cool! Like a 66 Toronado SS car, or a 1996 Eldorado ETC? Or a 1970 Eldorado with a 500? I know there was a guy running a 1990 or so Buick Rivera with a turbo V-6, that was kind of cool.

There are all kinds of cool combos, Art yours is different, cant wait to see it. It is what makes drag racing, America, Apple Pie great.

Terry is correct hands down, they even tried small blocks in trucks and that wasnt successful either as a stand alone. I think maybe no limit on cubic inches with a single 4 barrel trucks, now we are talking. That would make a truck!!!!!!!!! How about a 1955-57 GMC truck with a Pontiac motor in stock or Super Stock? ;)

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

:confused: I was over thirty and had owned two Neons. LOL! I met Darrell and Mike in Gainesville at an import shootout before they had the SRT, both stand up guys. Scott Mohler's parents were there waiting on Scotts arrival, they were good people also.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I think the question is, what are the younger guys being attracted by at the national events? I doubt that as cool as Arts car is, there was news on the grapevine about it coming to an event near them. I also personally feel its a budget issue for some of them. While I have HEMI Cuda taste, I have a turbo Shadow budget. But I love racing enough to race my Shadow and enjoy it rather than walk away from the sport because I can't have what I want at the moment.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I agree 100% with you Art and with your post about the expense of the sport compact series. . Junior Barns also said that most will not put up with BS of NHRA or IHRA style racing along with the expense and that to....I agree with. I think in a very few years the class structure as we "OLD FARTS" have grown up with will go away.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Art ! Speaking about Horsepower! Your Neon is right up there, 1.35? under and still untested so to speak ! I have a 65 SS/CA Hemi factored at 500, which used to be the same as the SS/AH cars. Now the AH cars are I believe at 507! What i'm getting at is I feel the rating is too high in the 65 cars, as the 68 cars have a much higher hood scoop, they can run the newer, higher manifolds, that we can't. I'm not whinning, just bring up a point, and I do like the neon, I'ts just that the ring & pinion is in the wrong end of the car!....I'LL Get over It.... Later John Lang

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Id say about $50,000 to $70,000 to start with and the old Camaros, Mustangs, early 60,s Mopars cost a fortune IF you can find a decent one to build. If its a good Corvette then its more like $100,000.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Mark, with all do respect and the same goes to everyone that thinks racing stock eliminator is more expensive today then in the past. Fee's being raised is not the death of NHRA. When I started racing stock over 23 years ago it was no more expensive for the money I was making then, then it is in today's money. I was working for UPS making $15.00 an hour, today UPS drivers make close to $30.00 an hour. Everything has gone up along with salary's. If someone's situation has not changed in 20 years, then yes it has gone up for them. My first stocker, the one I drive today cost me $8000.00 and was race ready. It was only a 2 tenths under car and when I worked on it, it was an index car. I needed to learn allot just to get it back to run under the index. I spent lots of money and time and had fun doing it. If you went 4 tenths under you were a top 5 qualifier. This was in 1987, my car was already 19 years old, I was 29 and thought the old cars were still cool as I think many young people still think today.

Today I can build along with anyone else a stocker for less than $15000.00 and go 8 tenths under. A late 80's Mustang 5.0 or the same year Camaro's can be built for the same. If you go to 2 nationals, 7 divisions and 2 opens you will have to take 2 days off and 1 day respectively per race, I do not see that being a problem. I spent about $1100.00 for entry fees in '87, today for the same racers I would spend about $2000.00 for entry fees. Membership and car number was about $60.00, it cost $109.00 today. You don't have to run AA to be completive, just ask Lee Zane, when he ran his Apollo.

Granted the money you can win has not gone up much, but I doubt there are many who race today that depend on the winnings to be able to race next week.

All the talk about the new CJ's and Challengers is way over blown, how many racers will be effected by the new cars? I for one, being a AA car I'm not complaining, I look forward to racing them. Even with the Challenger being able to run some of the slower classes, the effect will be small on most racers. With all this said, I do not think NHRA has priced anyone out of stock eliminator.

Choose your class carefully, and you can have fun in stock for no more then it cost 20 years ago in today's dollars.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Nice early Camaros between G and A are bringing less than $40K, ready to run. No doubt, a Corvette will run you double. A Nova will bring less than a Camaro. The one thing you do not see for sale a lot is a Chevelle.

Example: If it is still for sale, one of the Ryans has a really nice Nova for sale for about $12K as a roller. Pete (Biondo) has a nice 396 for sale for about $10K. You need a transmission (store bought is only $5K or so, plus maybe $600 or so for a converter), a set of headers (Stahls for $1500, or Elstons for $3500 or so), and the usual add ons. So you could be running A or AA in a really nice car that would probably be real competitive for less than $35K. And that is if you do not negotiate on anything. Also, it would be a real pretty red Nova with a 396/375, you could probably get your money back if you could race it and hold on for a while.

I have not done any research into the Ford or Mopar stuff, so I am not qualified to comment on what that stuff costs, but it is a bit pricier than the Chevy stuff.

But if you can do a lot of the work yourself, shop smart, and do not get in a hurry, you can build for less.

A real bargain can be had if you find an abandoned project. And unfortunately in these economic times, they will get easier to find.

If you must have every trick in the book, buy everything, and pay to have it installed, then no doubt, you'll spend $50K plus. Maybe closer to $70K.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I have one of those hood scoops on my car. But for me its more of a parachute than a scoop. I'm sure it costs me at least one mph. Haven't gone 1.35 yet. But I'm not in a horsepower class it's cubic inches in my case.
Hoping the new mods will get it quite a bit quicker. But the main thing is I have got to get it to leave harder. Lately I can't hit the tree with a grenade. I wish I could deep stage. But some of the crybabies took care of that.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Kenny, with all due respect, you live in a completely different world than I. To travel, in our Division, to the events you suggested would encumber 28 WORKING days of my time. Division V is HUGH geographically. It would also cost me 21 days of motels and the costs of 11 races for a total of OVER $9500.

You started UPS at ONLY $15.00 per hour. I don't make that much now. That is why I have two jobs at age 64. I retired before age 50, but through no fault of mine, my retirement disappeared (many know the story). I'd like to race more, but it isn't worth the effort to do it the NHRA way. We have our nearby Stock/Superstock races that pay BETTER than NHRA Points races or National Opens, and damn near as well as the current NHRA National Events.

In 2000, Rick won the Mile-Highs and collected $12,800. Last year, the same pieces on the car would have paid $4500 plus NHRA's purse. Yet you say, "Granted the money you can win hasn't gone up much..." GONE UP MUCH????? It looks like DOWN to me. Plus, winning Class always paid for the trip. So monetarily, it can be tough on some to continue to race. But we do it anyway. Just not like we used to.

Jerry

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Alan, Thanks for the pitch on the Nova. It really is a nice car and the new owner will pick it up Tuesday turn-key with a 396/350.

Jerry

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

"I do not think NHRA has priced anyone out of stock eliminator."

Kenny, We'll see. Maybe you're right, but I still don't think it's a good year to be raising fees on anyone, young or old.

Anyway, the main point of my post was about getting the young guys into some sort of class racing.
I don't think many 22 year olds could afford it. You said yourself. You make alot more money now, than you did 20 years ago.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Jerry, we had actually talked about doing just what I posted. It just wasn't in the cards for us right now.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Mark,

I do agree the timing of raising fees was not good.

I do not know if I'm right or wrong, I just like to have a positive attitude about racing and life in general. If things don't work out, well at least I had a good time while I was doing it.

Not being taken advantage of is commendable along with standing up for what you believe in, but always being negative makes for a miserable life.

Jerry, I understand some people may not make as much money as they need to race. I'm just pointing out how the increased fees effected me. I have won two nationals events over many years. The first one in 1991 I won $9800.00, the second one in 1997 I won $12000.00. If i won today, I would be getting $13000.00. Its not much of an increase, but it has gone up for me.

Good luck Jerry, I do wish you well.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I guess it's nice to run the Ford. That contingency is a good deal for the Ford guys, and helps increase the pot in a hurry. Rick always wants to run the Boss 351 Mustang for that reason -- more contingencies. But it's an all original piece including the block, and the heater is still in it. We're building another for him to beat on.

The problem with the contingencies is that running the product in your car doesn't mean you'll get paid for it. Dating of parts and "original purchaser" agreements have taken a major toll on what we can get paid for. So a guy can't always just figure the contingency $$$'s on the parts in the car. Buying new "just in case" is like playing the lottery.

Thanks for the kind wishes. Rick can use them. I'm more of a test-&-tune guy.

Jerry

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Fan appeal stops when someone has no idea what kind of car they are looking at, new or old. I never cared much for Dragsters but liked Funny Cars when I could recognize the body. Not so any more. Same goes for Pro Stock.

My favourite cars are still S/S and some Stock or the old M/P's (please bring them back) but take any car, plaster it with too many decals, some weird space age wheelie bars and some obscene hood scoop and the car no longer resembles what it once was. Sure some of these are necessary, but the average person doesn't "get it". I have a lot of people young and old comment on my 67 Mustang (bracket car) because it still looks like a 67 Mustang.

Young kids may recognize the new Mustangs or Cuda's (for now) but none of them know what a S/S car that's a FWD conversion used to be. I like them all, but have been around to see the changes and some I like more than others. I really don't think it's an old vs new thing, more a case of how you show what you've got.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I think we kinda got away from the "fan" base question and I think the answer about young people was brought up at least twice.

They all show up for test and tune....but do they show up for the weekend bracket race..no.

These kids don't want to race in a class structure...they just want to grudge race and show off on the streets.

Most of the young racers in the HRA's are second and third generation racers.

Hemi's, maxie's, mustangs,camaro's and the other cars that are in Stock today will be there 20 years from now, unless the associations puts some emphasis on FWD cars.

Jim R

BTW I buzz around in a Turbo PT Cruiser

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

I think several here have hit the issue. There are MANY late model, sport compact cars that show up at every track around the country every week. It's amazing how may 11-12 second street driven Subaru WRX, Mitsibishi Evo and Neon SRT-4's there are. NONE of these cars fit any of the current NHRA class structures beyond the Neon being factored for AF/S. Since even most bolt on modifications are illegal for stock, there is no appeal for this crowd to compete (plus the expense vs reward). Most of these cars are also daily drivers, not at all unlike the street racers of years past with their Cragar's, wide ovals and glasspacks. But when that era of cars was at its peak, the NHRA class structure was revamped (early 70's) to embrace that crowd. When the Sport Compact series was created they created the top level (Pro) categories and the series ran a handful of events that criss-crossed the country - no grassroots structure to grow the sport like the traditional sportsman series with divisionals and as Art stated, with GM in particular pumping over a $1 million/year into their team, I know I realized there was no competing with that as a privateer.

I think the fan appeal is two-fold, 1) youger fans can relate better to the newer cars, but also 2) they like to see them compete against the classic muscle. I know I've been told by many how cool it is to see my FWD Neon running against the Hemi cars and Big Block Camaros. Having a mix of old and new is what is required to cover the spectrum of audience appeal.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

When Sport Compact was created, it was asked if there would be a Stock eliminator. The answer was a definite NO. The reason given was it would be too much of a hardship on the younger racers to have to teardown their engines to prove they were legal. The younger group supposedly wanted only heads-up racing with very little class structure. Well the powers in charge listened to them and we can see where Sport Compact is today. Thousands of potential young racers to grow from and a few high dollar teams ran everyone off.....forever.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Even heads up classes need tech (teardown) to be legal.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Well well. Can you believe it!!!!! nhra listening to racers???????? LOL LOL
The real story is probably nhra didn't want to put extra help to tear cars down.
I knew some racers that were building cars for the sport compact stuff, but the toterhomes and the stacker trailers scared them away. And believe it or not even with all the factory help. There is a guy in Canada that is using 20 year old car and parts that has ran as fast and faster than the factory teams.

Re: Atlanta fan appeal.
 

Great post Tim! Jim