Ahfs
 

I remember someone calling the AHFS system "automatic help for slugs" awhile back. I don't see in the AHFS policy on NHRA's site where slow combos get hp off, what was the moniker in reference to?

Re: Ahfs
 

i belive that reference was directed at the racers with slow cars/combos that complained about fast cars so often to nhra that they decided to implement an automatic system even when they knew there would be no way to create such a system without flaws. hence the term "help for slugs" ..... help for the slow by punishing the fast.

you can send a letter to nhra requesting a reduction of hp for a combo... they will look at similar data and decide if the combo deserves a reduction based on their formulas..... they do that twice a year midway through and at the end of the season.

Re: Ahfs
 

Thanks Angelo, I'm not trying to get hp off, I was just was wondering where the term came from.

Re: Ahfs
 

RJ... i was the one who tagged the AHFS as the automatic help for slugs...

it seems to me the whole issue surrounds those who have chosen thier combos poorly and believe like our new president and congress that taking from those (who can go fast) will help those who dont wanna work.

i am also the one who has screamed from the mountain tops that the AHFS "can not and will not ever work" because we can manipulate the input (see -1.408 thread). END OF STORY.

the only way to police this is with a committee of intelligent people (none in glendora we know) who can study data from runs (and allow for atmosphere) and then look at each combo in question to determine the POTENTIAL to go fast.

last thing ive been on for years... lower these stupid easy indexes about -.050 and lets race

jack mccarthy

Re: Ahfs
 

Boy if thats not the truth, More, it was 11.52 in A/SA over 30 years ago. Now its 11.30 how bad is that, folks have not figured out how to go fast in over 30 years.......crap.

Re: Ahfs
 

yeah... moral support !!

jack

Re: Ahfs
 

Instead of every one complaining about this system why don't we come up with a "better Way" to help the system ? a good idea in my opinion.

Re: Ahfs
 

Get real Don.You couldn't get 4 S/SS racers to agree if it's day or night.One will say day,one will say night,one will say I don't care and the last one will give you a dumb look.We are slowly sinking into
oblivion at the hands of NHRA and ourselves.


Mr Gloom and Doom
from New Jersey

Re: Ahfs
 

Ed;

I may suspect your may be close to being right,

BUT
I do know a person who can make the system right on with a valid way to do this whole factoring system with out any emotion. I know he will and can explain the "correct' way to do the factoring system if only he would speak up more.

Re: Ahfs
 

Yea, I agree with Ed. Those "back east racers" they get night before we do in the west and it allows them to race in cooler temperatures because the sun sets sooner than here in Arizona and they have cool ocean breezes even if they are hundreds of miles away and we have mountains that block those breezes. And the sun rises over there first so they get to start racing before us. And right now it's almost 11 pm here but it's almost 3 am there and in just 3 hours they will wake up and can be racing while we're just waking up! How stupid is that?
And whatever some may think, I know the moon is not as intense here so gravitational pull is not as good. Somehow that is related to how the carb pushes fuel out of the bowl and allows those guys to go faster back east. I haven't figured that one out yet but I will!
Man, looks like I lost my mind there trying to make the AHFS more equal to all.
Goodnight....

Re: Ahfs
 

Jeff, we don't have the "West Coast" edition of the rule book so it all more than equals out.

Re: Ahfs
 

You are right on target Ed..... no matter what the issue the field is usually split just about 50-50

Re: Ahfs
 

Jeff,

Respectfully, it is a free country so you can move east and try out. We also get 100-plus car fields (7-round races just about every time out, plenty of rain, and crappy snow in the winter, well, I guess not in Florida where I am now). There is some great racing weather and great tracks in the east, but can you deal with the congestion, rat race and expensive cost of living? It isn't all gravy over here.

Evan

Re: Ahfs
 

Take it for what its worth
John Shaul & Mike Iacono
If you look at these to guys when they run on the EAST COAST or WEST COAST
There cars performance is the same.
Mr Shaul goes to the top and Mike goes to the middle
And in class they both usually go to the class final

Re: Ahfs
 

Why don't we go back to the simple system of the of the past, and run off the national records! Start by knocking about a second off the index, run everything, with about a .010 breakout, and let the racing do the rest. It may help to bring back points, for records also. That system worked for years, till they came out with the index, which has been argued from day one.
Eddie Rezac

Re: Ahfs
 

Evan , We at the ssssa would like to see you at our lakeland race may 23-24. come on over

Re: Ahfs
 

Eddie Rezac for president!!!!! :D

Re: Ahfs
 

Right on. Thats a good place to start. Some people will claim fields will get smaller. Isn't if heading that way now? Maybe some racers would return to the sport that was screwed up with dialins,dialunders and all that crap. Maybe even the fans would return.

Re: Ahfs
 

NOT GOOD! What if you can only run .60 under your "record" and the guy next to you can run 1.15 under his/her "record"? You've got no shot at winning so why go to the track?

Re: Ahfs
 

It was only 1/10th under allowed or you break out. Not all that many could run under at times. I've seen div 4 races won by guys running as much as 1/10th off their record. Of course, we always have just killer air around here. Like 3000' & 4000' DA in the summer. Slower guys worked hard to learn what they were doing wrong so they could get faster. Nowadays, many would just give up after a couple of races and go bracket racing. Which is pretty much what they have SS dumbed down to now. I raced the whole first season (in 1962) before I won a round. I felt I could figure it out if I stuck it out. I know I'm not fast now, but I feel pretty good when I can qualify in the top half with a low dollar car, and doing my own engines. Still can't drive worth a damn.

Re: Ahfs
 

Its called run him out, Eddie is right on. Driving is the same running on the records or index. It puts the RACE back in Drag Race. You will have less time to bitch and more time to work on your combo.

Re: Ahfs
 

Amen!

Re: Ahfs
 

What? You mean they have rats all over back east? Enough to have a race? Hell no! I don't like rats under the hood or running around my feet. That's disgusting!

Re: Ahfs
 

So in you're vision of S/SS it would come down to "work harder" (i.e. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$).The guy with the most money and any ability to drive would be king.
As fast as we're spiraling to earth I think your system would hasten the end.
Just my 0cents.

Re: Ahfs
 

Running off records, or running it like Comp, would kill the majority of S/SS racing. Here is a recent example, that I posted before but will mention again.

1998 Dutch Classic. A gamblers-style eight car race was run. Pay twenty bucks, eight best reaction times of those who signed up got in. About 20-25 cars signed up. In 1999, they did it at the Opens in Delmar and Atco, and the Div 1 race at Maple Grove. It was run Comp Eliminator style, off the Index. The field average was used as the CIC point, and in effect for first round. If the field average was, say, -1.032, -1.03 was the CIC, with a one-to-one ratio. The difference from Comp was, it started for first round. So if you had a GT/DA and had run -1.11 in qualifying, your Index went from 10.80 to 10.73 for first round (for the Atco race it was this way, I know. Not 100% sure if it was this way at Delmar/Grove). Car counts for S/S at those three races were five, seven and nine, respectively. Stock participation was not much better. Point is, if something like this was implemented, those with the money and/or fast cars would be the only ones that would show up, IMO. Anyone with money would guy buy the baddest (insert engine builder's name here) bullet in the world. That mentality should be left for Comp and Pro Stock.

Another problem would be with some of the records set at altitude tracks and killer mineshaft conditions. Could you see all the B/SA's running off of a 9.82? Most A and AA Stockers can't run that. When Billy set the HF/SA record in the Sunbird at Delmar in 2002, it was below sea level air, with a tailwind. Record was set at 17.303 (18.60 Index. And he only qualified EIGHTH!!). The best I ever went in three years of racing that car was 17.48, in really good air at Hagerstown. Point here is, some classes would really be affected adversely by out-of-line records set in rare air (sea level and altitude both). I think it should left alone.

I do agree with Ed O, though. We need to enforce the rules, all of them, and the same way in every Division. Also, it always amazes me of the people that constantly want to change the way things are. If you like to go fast, qualify at the top, set records and win Class, you can do that. If you're a person that likes the challenge of the bracket racing aspect and pitting their finish line/starting line skills against many of the best in the world, you can do that also. Seems like there is something good for everyone. Why not keep it the way it is? Seems to have worked well for the past twenty years or so.

Re: Ahfs
 

Hay Ed wake up, how often dose Bob Shaw run out???? Same old same old no matter what you run off of.

Re: Ahfs
 

Seems like the slower guys think the faster guys are faster just because they have more money. Won't help to work harder if you don't know how or what to work on or work at. First, don't throw it away on things that don't make you faster. If you need a tenth or more, an aluminium spool or titanium lug bolts won't get you there. You can walk around and see a lot of wasted money on many slower cars.

If you can't drive all the money in the world won't help you, or me. And I didn't say Stock. I said SS. I don't have a stocker, so don't care what they do there.

Re: Ahfs
 

Ed,what affects SS affects S.We're all in the same boat.I realise this isn't a poor mans sport but going back to running off the index will kill S/SS.It's not 1968 anymore(unfortunately).
Even Dick Butler is silent about heads up.He gave his pitch and I think he realizes it is a thing of the past.

Ed

Jeeze,there's getting to be alot of Ed's on here lately.

Re: Ahfs
 

Shouldnt we at least follow proper statistical methods according to Science? Our current method isnt statistically accurate. It is better than doing nothing but it has several errors built in. It isnt that hard to do it more accurately.

Re: Ahfs
 

Lynn,you can read statistics till you're blue in the face,NHRA cannot and will not take the time to
administer an AHFS correctly.WE EXIST ONLY TO FUND NHRA'S PROGRAMS..PERIOD...........
Sorry for raising my voice.


Ed F.

Re: Ahfs
 

I was only ten years old in 1970 but my understanding from those that raced in that era was S/SS racing was just about dead because of low turnouts; always been told due to running off records. Remember the loss of Stock and transformation to a pure stock creation in the early
'70's?
I've been fast in all the classes I've raced in Stock and I'm working on obtaining that level in SS. So I should be all for such an idea. But I know nothing would destroy S/SS faster than running off records.
This proposal is from either spectators that want to see blood or racers that believe they are capable of dominating.

Re: Ahfs
 

Eddie,

As someone who raced during those years I can tell you that it didn't work then and it wouldn't work now.

All it takes is for someone to bomb the record and you get to take your car to the dump as useless trash...and that happened alot! That's why the index system is a little better

What system will work fairly.....I don't pretend to know...but I believe the racers will be the ones that can fix it.

Jim R

Re: Ahfs
 

Amen!

Re: Ahfs
 

I remember running off national records and for awhile, it worked.

Remember; this was a simpler time before ten thousand ****house lawyers disguised as racers started doing things to screw up the system... but it DID work for awhile.

That in no way is intended to mean that it can work now, however.

It worked then for several reasons that don't apply, today.

1. National records back then were held in high esteem by racers everywhere. If you held the record, you probably were the baddest of ther bad in the whole country, and you probably traveled hundreds of miles to get to a track where a record could be set. It was a BIG DEAL to hold a national record. Cam grinders advertised it; racers painted it on their car "NHRA NATIONAL RECORD HOLDER," usually above the door/drip rail; You had the respect of everybody, nationwide, who ran that class. Competitors spoke your name in hushed tones...

Really.

2. It was SUCH a big deal that at least, in the beginning, NOBODY sandbagged to install a national record that was "soft," because somebody else would come along and nail it for themeslves. Everybody who COULD, tried to set that record as low as they could so it would remain theirs; that's why it was the record... it showed who was F-A-ST!!!

3. You weren't penalized by a cockamaymie system that rewarded your efforts at going faster with bestowing horsepower on your engine; it stayed where it was. Performance was king... and, the science that provided that performance was the brainchild of the racers of that period of time who could generate lower e.t.'s through their own intelligent thought, inventiveness, clever engineering and one-upmanship without fear that it was going to mean that they'd be pulling more weight because of it.

Back then, you had to weigh whatever the shipping weight was for your particular car; there was no adding weight to get into the top of the next lower class, nor removing weight to get to the top of your natural class. That fact caused a lot of strange combinations to be built (9-passenger wagons, convertibles, etc.) which just HAPPENED to fit the very top of a class break. If you didn't have such a car, usually, you could forget about ever having the national record in that class, because somebody with one of the fortuitous combinations would have it. I didn't say it was easy...

But, nothing lasts forever. It didn't take too long for the "thinkers" (and, there were many) to figure out that this system could be manipulated by artificially soft records, and letting records go to MINIMUM and not re-setting them to maximize handicaps.

If you had a "fast" car and reset an already quick national record by dropping it a couple of tenths, you became a VERY unpopular person, nationwide, overnight, with everybody who ran a car in that class. You just cost them two car-lengths of their handicap, from then on.

This situation didn't take long to escalate into a scenario that made it abumdantly clear that the "handicapping off national records" just wasn't going to be effective any longer. The racers had defeated themselves again, and the NHRA had to come up with something to replace the national record handicap system. I believe that's when Indexes were born... and the deal we have, now.

Returning to racing off national records sounds appealing,but due to the totally different mindset of today's racers, and the way the importance of national records has declined ( a real shame, IMHO), I am pretty sure it would not work anything like it did in the sixties. Too bad; for a while, there was Camelot...

Bill

Re: Ahfs
 

Yeah, Div 4 points races used to only have 75 or 80 or so SS cars in 1970. Had 44 this last race at Ennis, looked like about that many at Memphis. I have only been trying to do this again the last two years, but I have not seen anywhere near 80 SS cars at a Div 4 race in that time.

Re: Ahfs
 

The guys that want to race off national records don't remember how it would apply in todays world. I am 58 and can remember how it used to work and I think it would be a step in the wrong direction. Back then there were no reaction times to tell how good of light you had. Also if you think it is expensive to race now, just go back to the old system of running off national records. You would need an operation like the Westcotts have with your own Machine shop and dyno, a stable full of cars, and a trailer full of engines to change classes and combos at the track. You will get to the track and find that someone on the east or west coast had bombed the record you were going to run off the week earlier because you are now racing in 2400 foot air at Indy or Joliet and there is no way you can go that fast, so now you need to change classes, to get a soft record to run on. Beleive it or not the system we have now keeps the cost down and makes it better for almost everyone.

Re: Ahfs
 

I have been in and/or around drag racing since the late sixties when the handicap system was based on national records. The index system, in my opinion, is really a much better option for a number of reasons, (especially cost) but it really is overdue for some major refinement.

Nothing is perfect but the basic index concept is as fair to everyone as it's going to get. If you have the resources to go faster than everyone else, have at it. If you don't, you can still take part and have just as good of a chance at success (winning) as the next guy. Either way, nothing worth having is going to come easy.

Re: Ahfs
 

Bill, I'm guilty of having a 9 passenger station wagon at one time. Tires got better and the sedans looked better. Easier on parts for sure. I never set a record I could't run at least .015 under in the summer heat. Don't know why anybody with any sense would. No need to travel anywhere else to set one if you could't run under it at home you would be screwing yourself.

Re: Ahfs
 

Ed Wright, you are "RIGHT" we used to have more cars and spectators at local races than they now have at points meets. You youngsters that are in your 50's remembering how it was with the record system have your timing wrong. I believe the car counts stared to go down the very fist year that the index system started., as it had no breakout. There were 3 drivers in the country that would win every event, if they showed up, because of their combo. But in the following years it just kept getting worse, and the count, kept going down, down, down.Yes in those day, with the record system, your car could be made junk overnight, but with today's up and down, addition, or subtraction of weight and being able to run the GT combos, it should not be much of a problem, sorry GT does not work in stock. The index system has too many things deciding what gets HP, or index change, or whatever. The record system would only have the racers themselves, make those decisions. I don't remember a lot of individual people overly dominating the system in the old days. As for all of you sea level racers complaining about running bogus altitude factors, this all started at the first Mile High Nationals when most of you could not run with us high country folks. We were qualifying at 2 to 4 tenths above the index and you guys couldn't go that fast, so it was flat out, no break out racing, so don't blame the high country people, we loved no break out racing. Even though I am in my 70's I have a darn good memory, so I think I am pretty close on all of this.
ED, I also raced a 9 pass 59 FI 283 4 speed wagon, 4005#, without my 220# body.
Eddie Rezac

Re: Ahfs
 

Ed;
(Oh boy another Ed),you raced at a time when for all intents and purposes you guys were racers'
chassis tuners,engine builders,transmission men,etc.It was a different world.Today alot of guys
(me included) couldn't tune up a lawn mower.Almost everything is "store bought".We're at a time when
NHRA is cutting classes not increasing them.Sponsors are dropping like flies,payouts suck,fees
increasing.Enhancements up the kazoo.
The whole world is changing and so is drag racing.I was just a young spectator in the early 60s and
although limited in the tech end it was ingrained in me, it was part of a culture (even for us living in the middle of Manhattan in NYC).Times have changed though.I guess progress can't be stopped,good or bad.

Ed F.