No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Not wanting to antagonize anyone especially my Chevy friends, but why is there no HP on the Sorenson combo? Can anyone shed some light? From what I have read he went 1.40 under @sea level correction. Soooooo then according to the AHFS rules it’s automatic 3.25% just like the Ebody HEMI’S got, or am I missing something?

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

run did not count! did not pass weight!


I guess????

would like to know for sure myself??

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Fred Henson didn't pass weight when he got HP'ed at No Problem for going 1.40 under. He didn't even go over the scales. But Monday there was the feared 3.25% added to the 426 Hemi, but then it ain't a Chevy and it ain't Div 4. I see this as a problem issue. I'm also not sure if Bob Dennis went over the scales every time he gets hit. He has large experience in this field.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

1 633 B/SA Hal Sorensen, Vancouver WA, '69 Camaro 10.159 11.93 -1.771
2 6471 K/SA Bill Edgeworth, Tacoma WA, '77 Firebird 11.658 13.38 -1.722
3 636 H/SA John Hill, Fairbanks AK, '86 Camaro 11.379 12.86 -1.481
4 7592 C/SA Richie Pauley, Newhall CA, '68 Mustang 10.615 12.09 -1.475
5 7980 F/SA Steve Wann, Modesto CA, '73 Dart 11.078 12.55 -1.472
6 6300 C/SA Glenn Person, Regina SK, '70 Challenger 10.624 12.09 -1.466
7 6149 B/SA Wesley Libby, Mead WA, '71 Challenger 10.472 11.93 -1.458
They were 3 tenths faster than other cars going for and getting records including one of the fastest B cars...that is one bad ride for sure...but something is still wrong in this picture..

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

I believe the answer is Glendora suddenly has cold feet. If that was you or Steve Wann you would have had HP before you got back to the trailer. I guess the rules don't apply to Chevy guys. Bruce doesn't return phone calls on this issue either

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Dave -- Believe me I know firsthand the rules do apply to Chevy's -- a couple of years ago I hit the magic 1.40 mark by accident when the air got great at Atco and on Monday morning our LT1 Camaro got the 3.25% gift ............

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

: No HP on the Sorenson combo?

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Fred Henson didn't pass weight when he got HP'ed at No Problem for going 1.40 under. He didn't even go over the scales. But Monday there was the feared 3.25% added to the 426 Hemi, but then it ain't a Chevy and it ain't Div 4. I see this as a problem issue. I'm also not sure if Bob Dennis went over the scales every time he gets hit. He has large experience in this field.
__________________
Jeff Teuton 4022 STK


Thats the point Jeff. Fred never went across the scale. The camaro did and failed!! Run disqualified!!

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

So according to the rule book p48 (weighing of vehicle/fuel check) Fred Henson should have been disqualified from the event. And the run should not have counted. Unless I’m reading it wrong.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Perhaps at the race at Belle Rose being a first round loser he was waved past the scales.I've seen that a lot...

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Why have a rule if the people who made the rule do not enforce it evenly?

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

John Kelley Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Fitzpatrick
So according to the rule book p48 (weighing of vehicle/fuel check) Fred Henson should have been disqualified from the event. And the run should not have counted. Unless I’m reading it wrong.

Perhaps at the race at Belle Rose being a first round loser he was waved past the scales.I've seen that a lot...


Both good points!! I dont know the answer. Perhaps this should be a change for the future. All participants must scale and pass fuel, win or lose in eliminations, if all runs are going to count towards AHFS? I'm just guessing why one may have got hit and the other did'nt!

Does anyone know if the 427/425 got hit for sure or not

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

It would be great if they did ! But I think it's a time factor deal...70+ cars in Stock at Belle Rose would have taken over an hour to weigh all of them. Plus a bunch more in SS & Comp....
Maybe they need more than one scale...but there will always be a diffrence in scales. Not an easy solution !

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Here in Div 1 we almost allways have over 70 cars and we all go over the scales.And a ton of SS and comp. cars and alcohol and others.
Seems the division guys are either getting lax or Glendora sickness setting in.
I think all the fast guys should just start running full out and shedding weight between the stripe and the scales.The first one tossed or given HP should retain a shylock lawyer and rolll the dice.

Ed F.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

If Fred’s run counted for the AHFS. It should have been mandatory that he got weight and fuel checked. How many cars go 1.40 under? I’m sure they could weight & fuel check 1 or 2 cars. But junior barns made a good point.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

I would say that if a racer looses an elimination round and he is not directed to go to the scales then he is not required to do so.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

If it’s going to cost over 100LBS he should. That one run By Fred Made the Ebodys with a Hemi Extinct.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

By the way Sorenson thought it, out and saved a lot racers weight.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

I agree with you Jim, but if it is a run of 1.40 or more under and it will affect your HP rating then it should be mandatory to weigh and tear down regardless of whether you win or lose. (although not in the rule book) I think this whole thread has gotten off the topic of what really happened. I don't care if it was windy, I don't care if the scales were fluctuating, I don't care if your weather station said you were going to slow down, if you ran 1.391 under why would you take the chance of possibly going faster. I was not there but if water was indeed drained from the raditor or anyother item was removed from the car that was in the car during the run should have remained in the car when scaled (including the water). So tell me, does this set a rule of thumb for anyone that goes 1.40 under, take what you can out of the car (drain the water, drain the oil, drain the trans fluid, leave your jacket, helmet and pants with the car behind you) so that you are light and the run doesn't count? I would like to see someone get that by Bruce or Travis here in D3 ...

That is the biggest problem I have with NHRA is the inconsistancy across divisions.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

I see your point Chuck.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

.....If a man's mistakes determine what he was, then what he does about those mistakes determine what he is .......... If Sorenson's get no HP, then the right thing for NHRA to do is tell Fred Henson; we're sorry, we made a mistake, and remove the HP off the Hemi A body. Especially because the circumstances are so similar. If not, then Sorenson's get HP too. It's black and white. The only thing missing here is a little Gray Matter. JB

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Fred Henson has oficially protested his hp increase to me as the rep for Div 4. I will forward the proper stuff tomorrow to the power that be.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Another precedent in Div 4 (as I mentioned in another post) is the fact that some racers (who shall remain unnamed) were running the last pass at a points race light just to see how hard they could run. The had already secured their place on the sheet. Craig Hutchinson made them take the last run and informed them if they continued such behavior, they would be disqualified. This was at Hallsville, TX some a few years ago.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Chuck you are right on the money except I believe this is a Glendora call not a divisional call. The truth of the matter is if you read the AHFS rules it states "1.40 under the sea level index you will get 3.25% HP period. It says nothing about weight, fuel check, or tear down. Sorenson went 1.408 under the sea level index he gets 3.25% HP.end of story. Altering the weight to get the run disqualified is a whole other issue and that deserves a suspension. We have two major problems here. I for one would be very curious to hear Travis's interpretation of this situation. Dan Fletcher quoted it pretty well. "ur 1.40 under ur hit"
I sure hope you aren't talking about Bruce Bachelder because I have been told that he is the guy who won't make the decision or return phone calls.

Dave Schmitz

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Good for him -- And the rest of us who "took" HP hits should do the same -- rules are for everyone -- believe me if I thought for a second that I could have drained my radiator and not taken a hit there would have been no choice to make -- but that "stuff" won't fly here in D1 -- and it should be the same everywhere .

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

I am proud to say that I race in Division 3.I can't believe anything like this would happpen in our Division.
You are saying that a car would make a qualifying run and the car was light on weight?
THEN THE RUN WOULD COUNT???
I feel bad if somebody with a slow car like mine ended up with a HEADS UP run because the ladder changed due to this.This sounds totally ridiculous.
I don't think that any runs should count for qualifying when the car was light on weight.If it goes fast enough to get horsepower (even if it was light on weight),there should be a mandatory engine tear down.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Why if you have a problem don,t you just email div 6 and ask them instead of all this website stuff . Just go on the lucus site go to div 6 and send them your concerns or is it more fun to type it here?? You know this still has something to do with the 1.15 under at the Nal events to. We as a group should need to know some of these things. I emailed my div tech man for his ruling you all should do the same to see there veiw on this. Ron Roddels run at the winters there was no tear down he did not even run elems so mybe not to get HP but got it anyway. Tom Meyer

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Do you think they would give you an honest answer?

Ed F.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

While I can't add to why it would be different in any other division, I can tell you that at the Division 3 race in Indianapolis this year I was next to Marty Buth when he went -1.47 under his Q/SA index in his Turbo Thunderbird. After we joked about whether I saw anything blow across the track to stop the timers so early, Marty knew he had a teardown coming. There were no doubts by the tech officials at the scale as to what was going to happen. His car was weighed, a fuel check was done and an appointment in the barn was made for later that night based on the 1.40 under run. It was only after the teardown was confirmed that Marty went for the record. He had to send someone down to Autozone to get an intake gasket as he didn't even bring any!

CLERMONT, Ind. - Final order after 4 rounds of qualifying in Stock Eliminator at the NHRA Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series, North Central Division, event at O'Reilly Raceway Park at Indianapolis:

Psn--Num--Class-Driver, Home Town, Machine-----------------ET---Index---(+/-)
1 3657 Q/SA Marty Buth, Freeport IL, '86 Thunderbird 12.627 14.10 -1.473

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Just LOWER the INDEX'S and be done with this B.S.I bet over 1/2 the cars in D1 stock or Super Stock are holding a bunch, Lets get these INDEX'S lowered, so we don't worry about 1.15 and 1.40 under crap and then ya don't have to carry a ton of wt. in your trailer,LOL. Lets get this rolling, oh by the way, nice pass Sorenson Boys, that car is fast. Thanks for your time. Brian Oakes

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Fix the HP factors not by dropping the index:mad:

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Lowering the index's is BS!!

Just remember that if you lower the index by .2 that the trigger will get lowered by .2 as well. You will have fixed nothing!! THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

Maybe these "FAST" D1 cars should take some HP and be done with it. REALLY, if they are holding that much, a little HP shouldn't hurt them at all, right?

Perhaps we should start by making sure these cars are legal. After all it's not to hard to go fast when you cheat, is it? And I'm not just talking about heads and intakes, because we all know thats going on. But how about a late model Firebird with the frame rails moved in? Or how about a carbuerated 80 Chevy car still running an E-Shift?

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Well how else ya going to stop this wt. game, and who says ya have to lower the Trigger point and why stop at .2 lower it more, and if ya think i cheat, come to Atco in June, my motor will be coming apart for the SS/CA record, if i can set it???? i will let ya watch it come apart. BOB, About any other cars in D1 , cheating.Don't know and don't care, just look after my own problems of trying to slow it down with out getting power. Thanks Brian

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Keep adding weight(and moving cars up through the classes) is NOT the answer..in the end we then need AAAAAA/S....probably 90% of all combo's has the potential to get past that 1.15 trigger as of today..the true pontential of all combos will never have a shot to be seen under the current triggers and indexes and that make the system more and more out of line..
Those cars that wouldn.t make an index thats .50 lower than today couldn't be more than a handful in each division..those are either totally wrong factored combos(that has to be figured out and changed some other way),racers thats working thier way up... or they have car owners that just dont care more than to barely make the "bracket race" ...and those dont get too much support from me..
I dont see any point to 1.4 sec or more under an index..lower them .50 and set the trigger on 1.00...in 5 years they probably have to be lowered again..

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Joe Schaechter is right. We ran against each other in qualifying when I went 1.47 under at Indy. I have gone 1.40 under 3 different times. None of them were planned, they happened. Two times were in division 3 and once in division 5. The results were the same, you tear down and you get HP. The first time was in Division 3 and I purposely went by the sacles, in hopes of the run not counting. Guess what..........it counted. I thought that was a fair ruling, because I made the -1.40 pass and I was trying to not get the run counted. I agree with Chuck Beach's comments. The rule and practice should be the same in all divisions. I know 3 and 5 are the same. It sounds like Fred was treated the same in division 4. Why is Sorenson's run in division 6 treated differemt? Makes no sense to me. I think the only guy with more -1.40 experience than me is Bob Shaw. I have been at the race a couple of times when Bob went -1.40. I am pretty sure Bob got the HP hit every time.

If Fred's appeal is granted and his HP is taken off, it seems like the door would be wide open for Bob, me, and anyone else to appeal our HP and get it taken off. No offense to Fred, but I hope they don't grant his appeal. I also hope NHRA does the right thing and gives Hal's combo the HP he earned with the run, just like all the rest of us have received.

One last comment. I have been impressed with all of the tech guys I have worked with in teardowns. I think Rich, Travis, Lukey, Jack, Don, and all the division 3 guys are very knowledgable and fun to work with in tear downs. Don even went to get a gasket for me at Indy. I also think Bob Blackwell, Wayne, and everyone I have worked with in division 5 are really great people. The tech guys don't do what they do to get rich, they do it because they like the sport, just like us racers.

Marty

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

You guys are hijacking this thread .... This has nothing to do with indexes. It's about Fairness, Equality, and Consistent treatment across the board in NHRA. Especially from Division to Division, as well as at National Events. Sorenson's are fast, always have been, always will be. Congradulations to them. Also,they are really nice guys. BUT, so is Fred Henson. Either Sorenson's get HP or Henson gets it removed. It's really very simple.JB

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

"I have gone 1.40 under 3 different times."



Why would you do that? I can see it one time but 3x, there is no excuse for that when you know the rules going in.

As far as Hensons combo we are taking a decent hemi that was run in a Challenger in A/SA and installing it in a 67 B body where it is 430 instead of 457. Heck we may put it in a station wagon.


Herb Jr

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Why not, as presented previously there used to be some chest thumping pride with having and proving you had the baddest ride on the planet - for some people there still is even if NHRA doesn't reward it. I personally take pride in making my car go faster, far more than slowing it down to save index. Now backing the car down to save parts from breakage is another story.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Wow, glad to see some people on this sight value performance from the car instead of the shoe polish tune ups. Thanks I was begining to lose hope.

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

Yea but in a land where you have very few cars in your class you can do that. Try that in any A-K/SA combination. You get 3.25% HP 3x and your combo is hurting a little.

Herb Jr

Re: No HP on the Sorenson combo?
 

If everyone rans their stuff hard the system would keep the combos in check to each other, if you can go 1.40 under you need HP. It only hurts you to show your hand and run it hard when the other guys are sandbagging so you get hit, get factored back to where everyone should now be equal then they open it up and now you are at a disadvantage until they get hit. Its a game, just depends how you wanna play it.

My perspective is also different running a lbs/cu in class, I hit the index, everyone loses - not a single combo. Index is lower but I'm still the fastest car. What is the AHFS rule for lb/cu in classes?