Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

We all notice that GT cars usually run engines with the most favorable HP that is a given. However, what I have never understood is when a hypo engine is rated with factory Ram Air, why dont they allow us to run the factory hood scoop? There certainly isnt any credit for killing our intake height or losing fresh air.

Dont you guys think that if a car's engine came with Ram Air we should be able to incorporate the original hood scoop on the GT car? IE 428 CJ should get the shaker hood they were rated with. 440 magnum should get the 440 magnum hood scoop.

I think it would be way cool to let the fans know that it is the new car with the appropriate engine dynamics!

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Lynn;
The average fan wouldn't know and no less care if a SS car had the correct scoop on it.All they care about is
ogling Ashley,Brittany and Courtney.I love your optimism and passion for SSers but face it,if it doesn't belch 2 foot flames out it isn't their concern.
If these cars were given appropriate hood scoops then others would climb on the band wagon and whine for something to counter the scoops.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

I think Lynn's idea has a lot of merit. Not doing something because somebody else is gonna whine is a pretty weak reason for not doing it, I think.

I've whined 'til I was blue in the face for a double red light rule, and do you see one in place anyrwhere???

No.... and, you probably won't.

Whining doesn't always get you anything. In fact, in my case, it has NEVER gotten me anything.

I say, if the engine was rated with that scoop, then it's a part of the engine dynamics and belongs as a part of the "package" on whatever chassis that engine is bolted into. To disallow it makes no sense to me...

My 2-cents...

Bill

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Thats why guys used firebirds with hood openings on ram air motors so it wasnt a "stretch" that they could open the hood. Like you said in GT you chose the weakly factored motor but you might weigh the hood or hood clearance versus the style also.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Please... We already have FWD conversions. To the average fan, they don't even sound right without a fartcan.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Well I think it is wrong to assume there are no super stock fans. Not that they couldnt be developed like NASCAR fans. If NHRA or IHRA marketed us we would be way more popular. Common Sense rules would go a long way. There are tons of SS fans on the Pontiac, Ford, Chevrolet, Mopar, Buick websites that dont understand the GT car rules. I am one of them. ;-)

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Lynn,get real.If there were real S/SS fans around we would be racing with people in the stands,not just our friends,at divisional races.They get lured to divisionals by low/no entries and booked in shows.The
market and culture just isn't there anymore,sad to say.Kids didn't buy jap cars then,they do now in droves.NHRA and the car companies gave a ****.It's a different world now.We are becoming the modern day dinosaurs.
BTW,if NHRA cared maybe they would take you up on your so called AHFS cure.Have they called you yet?Not knocking you but facts are facts.

Ed F.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

I still think stock and super stock is a very valuable untapped resource. You could have said the same thing about NASCAR 30 years ago. If you dont sell it.....it will never be sold. Anyway I think the rule change suggestion would make hypo engines in the GT applications make way more common sense.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Me too!

I've heard that if the body style came with a fresh air hood scoop, as well as, the car the motor was originally removed from it is OK!

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Ed,

They arent compelled because no one on this end is supporting it. We got the mufflers stopped because everyone got behind it. If there is enough noise and support it will get a response. If we dont have NHRA supporting us Ed, we need to do it ourselves. We must get out of the attitude of waiting for someone else to do it for us.

You ought to go to Bill Bader's points race. There were tons of people in the stands. If we can add excitement like running class instead of 3 days of boring practice, maybe someone might like to watch! It will never be sold if no one ever tries to sell it.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

That's just about the most illogical hing I ever heard.

The HP factor is on the motor that's going to be RACED, and if it had fresh air, that's a part of its factor.

Depriving a motor of a scoop that was factored as a fresh air engine is changing the parameters of how it makes power and invalidates the veracity of the factor.

But, I forget; it's NHRA.... the folks that gave us Hydramatics in Chevy sedan deliveries (and the subsequent total ban) and a 30+ year ban on 3-speed automatics in (some) cars that came with one (Turboglide.)

I forget what kind of minds I'm dealing with, here...

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

In todays world the kids that would normally be coming into our sport are not interested.There are too many things to do other than spend money they don't have on the bottomless pit S/SS is becoming.they
buy Hondas now,not GM,Ford,Mopar etc.
And look at NASCAR.Their fanbase (theout) is deteriorting,no good old boy drivers,a world car and supposedly in the future a world engine.Sound like Pro Stock??????????????

Ed

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

pinks: all out :D

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

I'll class race as long as I can and there is a place,I know people who have raced twenty years and don't
have a clue about stock,super stock,or comp and don't want to know about it,believe me I tried to explain
and get them interested.You can tell them about cars like Jerry Hemingson's B/A run 4.50s W/ 390''s SBC 5 years ago,[have to explain it's nat. aspirated] they don't care cause so&so runs 4.40's W/ 706 &2stages NOS.,or you get the most offensive to me response,He could run Top Sportsman with that.
They don't relate to how fast a car is by cubic inches/weight/resrictions they just see ET and don't care
how you did it in there mind lower ET =better car.That is how majority of drag fans think,most don't know
what a super stocker is let alone GT car.I do think you right about scoops going w/engine Lynn,sorry
if got of course.The class racer or anything else in this country that requires thinking or work is dying
and I don't like it.
Mike Taylor3601

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Good one Mark!!

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Lynn,

An interesting idea, but on some cars, the scoop assembly is worth more than the 2 barrel version of the entire car. And some won't fit given that every new car looks the same, like a bubble thing. What if we make all new GT cars have working air that they came with? Now that would be COOL!

And count me in on the WORST red light deal. I've been told the fans wouldn't understand it. Heck, there are commentators on TV each week talking about races won or lost on "Reaction time" when in fact what is measured is "car movment time" not the drivers reaction!!

Get me the Stage 2 455 GS legal in Stock and I'm getting you the hood scoops buddy. I know this guy who ran one a few years back and the crowds went wild, seems they didn't know folks raced cars other than Chevys....

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Good Luck Lynn, I hear you as a voice in the "dark" when it comes to asking for reasonable change and reasonable thought from NHRA. I respect your continued excitement and support for Class racing and S and SS but the whole "picture" has changed in the Auto industry, economy, life styles of youth and unless restarted from Zero by an new organization our form of excitement is a fond memory.
Choices are 1) keep going and "participating" when ever Class is run and run points meets as a participant without caring no one comes to see (for 1000 reasons)
2) keep hoping NHRA will have an attack of common sense or Crisis and develop a need for a crowd who likes S and SS.
3) sell your stuff when appropriate and take up a hobby where no one controls your goals and participation with the stroke of an ignorant pen.
I personally chose #3. I have a cruise in 409. I take it out of the garage " when I want to" I drive it WHERE I want to. I take it where hundreds of people love it too and respect it for its history. I do not compete with any rules or governance. I just GO there on my schedule or NOT. I control ALL my hobby. I even work on it IF I want to not in a hurry to arrive or get a parking spot or a campground. I eat at the booths, get a sunburn, visit fellow car lovers and look at old AMERICAN car parts and cars.
I am much more relaxed as I only deal with my rules of go "if I want to do it, I go."
Good Luck!

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

What about this for a GT rule change?

The FWD conversions get to do a lot of cool front end mods.... I particularly like the fact that they have tube frame rails and tube control arms / tabs / heims/ etc... like a comp car. I'm sure it makes them a lot safer than if the factory k-frame and stamped control arms were used. There's also more room for headers, oil pan width etc.. I think it makes the cars a little easier to work on too.

Any way my question is this - -

I wonder if the NHRA tech dept would ever consider allowing a traditional RWD car to redo the front end in a similar manner. Eliminate the factory K-member and control arms & replace it with tube and mounts for tubular control arms. Maybe even eliminate the upper arm and replace the upright with a sanhuff strut. Firewall wouldn't be an issue. It would also save some weight. It is a radical idea, but it seems like the next logical step considering what the FwD conversions are allowed to do.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

#1....lol
#2.....NHRA....Common Sence.....Ha ha Ho Ho Heh heh
#3....now your talking sence. There IS life after Drag Racing NHRA style and its a good one.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Recognition for S/SS aint never gonna happen guys. As long as NHRA has 2 of the cookie cutter fuel cars running, they are going to push them down the throats of the fans. Remember, they are ALLOWING us to race according to them.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Bobby DiDomenico said, "And count me in on the WORST red light deal. I've been told the fans wouldn't understand it."

What's to "understand"???

The way it is now, only one red light shows.

With the "worse red light" system only one red light will show; the worse one, and it will show as the 2nd car leaves the line..

There might be some minimal confusion by spectators, if there's a big handicap and the first car has the worse red light; that light would not come on until the 2nd car leaves, which could be 3 or 4 seconds after the first car to leave has launched.

That's the only way there could be any confusion, as I see it, and I think the spectators could get used to that, in view of the benefits this system would bring with it.

But
1. It's probably never gonna happen, and
2. If it ever did happen, the incidences of the 2nd car red lighting worse than the first one will be few and far between. That happens very seldom...

So, I don't think that "spectator confusion" will ever be much of a problem with a worse red light ystem.

The racers, themselves, would be unaware it was even in operation until after both cars have left the line because the first car's red light is delayed, and wouldn't turn on before the second car leaves the line.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Tell me about it Bobby,

The Stage 2 Buicks and the RA-V Pontiacs have every business in stock and Super Stock as the 427 Camaros and the Hemi cars especially the single 4 Hemis, but lets try to stay on subject.

Ram Air for a GT engine that actually came with RAM AIR is a reasonable request.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Ed,

If I had your attitude, the following things would have never been tried or accomplished:

1.) Stop mufflers on SSers and Sers
2.) RA-IV stocker engine down to 356 from 380HP/375HP
3.) 1973 455SD from 350HP to 325HP (from a guy running nitrous on this combo)
4.) Edelbrock replacement heads on a few Super Stockers
5.) 1970 455HO reduced to 335HP from 360HP
6.) Delay boxes stopped from SSer and Sers
7.) RA-IV engine HP down from 380HP & 370HP down to 340HP in SSers.
8.) Indian Adventure block approved for Pontiacs in S and SS.
9.) Kaufman block approved for Pontiacs in S and SS.

Nor would the following endeavors be tried:

1.) Correct statistical methods for AHFS
2.) Heads up races instead of 3 days of boring practice at Points races
3.) Edelbrock heads on stock Pontiacs to run against Edelbrock heads already existing on BBC's and 428 CJ motors.
4.) Edelbrock heads on 455SD motors and 421SD motors.
5.) RA-V heads for Modified engines
6.) A factory race engine heads up class at 6.0 and 7.0 for GT cars
7.) Factory Ram Air for Ram Air engines in GT cars.

Ed, NHRA and IHRA has been very helpful if you keep after it and it makes common sense. You must keep the glass half full instead of half empty.......or better yet as engineers always say you gotta get the right size glass for the job! ;)

One thing I will bet you for sure......if we dont try it wont happen, and if it doesnt happen, it wont be because we didnt try.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Bobby DiDomenico said, "And count me in on the WORST red light deal. I've been told the fans wouldn't understand it."

Do you know that a lot of faster guys go ahead and leave when the slower car goes red? No need to sit there on the trans brake for nothing, you have already won. A lot of the second red lights would never happen if the rules were changed.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Aw come on Terry, if we cant get them to do it, we do it ourselves! Change happens slowly, but it does happen. There is way more to life than drag racing, but it certainly is a bunch of fun! I have a Baja, 6 children (one by acquisition), a chemical company, a motorsports company. I dont want to lose any of them and will fight for each and everyone. Lay down Sally I am not!

My biggest problem is to figure out why I made almost the same HP as Stacy on the dyno, same dyno same day but 70HP off in the car. Langer said I need to paint it pink and put a tail on it! :(

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Geesh Ed,

Now you are telling me that fine blinder thinga do doesn't actually prevent one driver from seeing the others tree? Even if you are correct, no reason BOTH drivers don't get the same chance to red light. Isn't it first or worst for the other infractions? And it wouldn't cost any money, its in the software.

And Lynn, I've got this really big hammer, sorry I mean adjusting tool, to get the scoop to fit!! When are we doing it? Gotta come and see my aunt soon anyway.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Some block the other side of the tree, some (smaller ones) don't. Many very good drivers don't use one at all. The slower car leaves first, right? If one doesn't do it first, they would go with worst. The slower car leaves first, so would go red first if the handicap is big enough. If they said "worst or first" it might be different. More often than not, I leave first. We seem to be run over with eight second hood scoop cars around here. Some of them only go red if I do. I asked one "If I go red, do you go ahead and leave?" He says "why not? No need to sit there getting my car hotter." Makes sense to me. My blinder does block the other side of the tree, so I never know if a slower car went red unless I look at the score board when the front end comes down. If I forget that, I find out when I get the time slip. :D

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Jeez Lynn,that list looks like Santa's wish list for Pontiac rqacers.
What i alluded to is that you will not change the make up of current NHRA race fans.They are a totally different breed now.If you can't see that this conversation is ended.Good luck and keep chasing those windmills.

Ed

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Not only that, Kip. They've been subsidizing us!

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Ed, Mark, I dont agree, Billy Meyer tried to do away with Sportsmen and it was a miserable failure. If S and SS was sold, people would buy it. Have you ever been to a NMCA race? The fans are crazy about it! I say lead or get out of the way! You know what you call someone who does everything the same and expect a different result? So if it fails one way, we try another.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Ed , That may or may not be happening, but if it is ,that's one more advantage to the faster car . Doesn't sound like a good reason to NOT change the system.
...And ,could you do me a favor? Look on DRC for the last time someone left 1-2 seconds early, after the first car red-lighted.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Lynn,NHRA needs us for one thing.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ NMCA/NHRA oranges and apples.Most of their program is fast heads up racing.Go there and see how much it costs to be competitive.They make Comp look like Jr dragster.
The answer to your question: Obama??

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Yes or Foolish whichever you wanna pick. Why do you think I have been promoting heads up instead of boring 3 days of practice? However if the silent majority stays silent, nothing will happen.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

If I'm getting this right you're proposing going to running off indexes or national records.If so bye bye
S/SS.You will have the same 20 guys with deep pockets racing.Just like it was when the bracket format was introduced to raise participation levels.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

You're reading it wrong. Lynn is proposing class eliminations instead of time trials. Much like the SportsNational Open at Bowling Green. Instead of 2,3,4 or more time trials, you get one time trial, then they run class. It's an excellent idea really. Class gets contested, the spectators get to see some heads up no break out racing, and everyone still gets to run final eliminations.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Just asking, but what Mopar motors if any were rated higher with a hood scoop besides maybe the package cars? All the production motors had the same HP scoop or not.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

No silly, try to keep up ;):). I propose we run heads up instead of 2-3 days of boring practice. Use a 5 cent CPU (pencil) if NHRA wants not to help, we organize it on our own. Just show up to practice with your index on the front windshield. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday will stay the same for all those 3 fans who want to watch such a thing.

Lynn

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

Good point bigshow, our Max Wedge car has the same HP with or without the hood scoop as far as we can tell. Ron really cant afford a $5k alum hood, so no hood scoop for him either. No one can tell me that hood clearance and hoods scoops arent an issue. We had to make Ron''s plenum very small due to the lack of hood clearance. We also had to make the intake runner about an inch too short.

What I am saying is that if the guys run the Max Wedge or the 440 magnum in the GT car they should be able to incorporate the hood scoop how the engine came. Shaker or otherwise.

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

NHRA should just lower the HP Factor for the "ram air" in bodies without a SCOOP.....problem solved.\
And a LOT less hassle on legality of the proper scoop..........geesh

Re: Common Sense GT car rules revision!
 

I would like to see a format like that.But would NHRA go for it?I think you would hear"Sounds good,but it would take too long due to the time lost with the handicap starts".Would there be payouts for the class winners or just the satisfaction of winning class?How about the dreaded AHFS?