Super Classes Future
So after the "big" (not) turnout this past weekend at LVD for the D1 race (only 44 in SG), I started thinking about the future of SG SST SC at Division races...
I was reading a post on the Stk/Super Stock page, about some disapointment that NHRA gave the Top guys time shots and didnt give them to us (especially not SG as usual)... To me it appears that they are trying to replace us with Top Dragster and Top Sportsman...not sure how I feel about that...Dunno if they figure that some of us will give up and the fields will become small enough that we will just be filler... Of course most SST SG SC cars can go bracket racing or small series racing (NESSA and MASGA up north)...not like the Stk or S/Stk guys... Peresonally I got tired this year of sitting for a couple of days, with the slight hope of a time shot, and then racing when ever NHRA got around to running SG, so I have been bracket racing and NESSA racing and guess what... I am having fun again for the first time in a few years...the tracks have a schedule that they adhere to, and no classes are left out..yes sometimes the weather is bad and it one and go, but its one and go THAT DAY, not one friday and go sunday... I do miss the friends I see at Div races and the fun parties etc...but at my home track (LVD) there is a great bunch of guys and the track has been really good this year... I know some will chase the Divisional trail no matter what, but for me I just got tired of the BS that comes with it, all the days off work, travel etc...and no one better post here that they do it for the money that you might win at a D1 race, cause if you aint in the final you dont hardly pay for the entry... Come on, lets hear it... |
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I'm kind of torn about this. I'm just finishing the resurrection of my S/G car after 15+ years in mothballs. When NHRA raised the fees I swore I would just slow it into the 10's and bracket race it (money is really tight due to salary reduction). Then I managed to sell a few old parts on ebay, so I ended up getting all the updated safety stuff for S/G. With any luck, tonight will be my first race out with the car (still need to head back home and replace the seized fuel pumps), and this weekend is my local LODRS race (Woodburn). However, for less money (but a 3.5 hour drive) I can run a diesel-only bracket race this weekend (racing my Dually) and have a decent chance of actually making money. As much as I miss S/G racing, I'm going diesel bracket racing this weekend.
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This is one of the reasons we are trying to make the Jegs Super Series at Nationals Trails work, next week, July 18th is the next event, its a one day race on Sat, you come in, pay i think it's $65 to enter, i qualify everybody on a ladder off of 2 qualifying rounds, we race, we get out of there and while we are at it, have a lot of fun.
I see a lot of people running these deals you hardly ever see at divisional races and at times i dont blame them at all for only running weekly series events. |
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Hi Dave..... I hear and feel what you're saying..... D1 has to take a good look at how they run their event at LVD..... this year had a whacky run schedule with classes split up, moved around, and even a jumbled run order..... I guess it is their right, but it made the race a little uncomfortable..... and the flying brown clay clouds when the circle track opens is rediculous and one of the big reasons why some guys won't come..... I wouldn't be there with anything that requires between rounds engine maintenance.....
A lot of guys are not believing that the track is better.... I can tell you that the race surface is greatly improved and track management is WAY better.... shut down is still a bit bumpy.... I've been torn between staying in S/G or turning the roadster into a bracket car..... time and money makes bracket racing look really good these days..... and I'm sure that I can fit in with the people wherever I choose to go cause most of them used to be Super racers...... but it's still a tough decision...... I hope you stick around.... it's us real roadster guys..... and then there are the Vettes....... LOL |
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Dave I think the low car count is STILL THE ECONOMY , things are moving but at a slower pace, LVD is not a track that is centrally located.. $ 100.00 just in tolls for me. about the DIV. races I and probably a few others run them to get the grade points to run the Nats. which I enjoy.
About s/st, s/g, s/c I'm not 100% sure but the name says FULL THROTTLE or go home . HMMMM??? |
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I am happy to say I was thrilled with the job NHRA and LVD did this past weekend! I have skipped this event in the past before because the track water problem was a joke! With all the water this palce took on, this event could have not run smoother. As far as the "modified" run order the place had 4 rain delays on Friday, and one on Sat, what does anyone expect? Super Gas has always been last (no suprise there) Super Street got 3 time runs, but we have to be out @ 8:00 in the morning. I think everyone is forgetting that everyone is there to see T/A, T/D & T/S, just like at a National, you have to give the fans what they want. The owners of these tracks only have a couple of events a year to make big money at an event like this.
I will be at this event next year and having fun doing it. Hats off to LVD for turning their operation around! |
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Pete you nailed it...LVD has done an excellent job this year, getting the water issues solved, we had a bracket race a few weeks ago, that it rained like an MF'r for about an hour, and 2 hours later we were off and running again without a hitch... By the way when it rains at a Div race I understand why the run order may have to change..The issue I have is if you post a run order for the day, stick to it, or change it and let everyone know...dont make me sit in my trailer listening to the radio all day, only to hear at the end of the day, you've been scrubbed come back tomorrow..and its not just LVD, its NHRA and all the div races for years... |
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Dave, I totally agree with that, they do leave you hanging, it pisses me off when I could have been half way through a 6 pack by the time they figure it out and announce it, but I also have no idea what goes on behind the planning, maybe there are things going on that we don't know about, maybe I am giving NHRA way to much credit?? I bracket raced for 10 years before I ever did the .90 thing, and I love it. I love being with great people and hanging out, easing into the weekend and then going crazy on Sunday when you go rounds, comming out first thing in the morning and guessing the weather and hitting it, and being in a points battle without commiting yourself to 20 weekends a summer. I guess it's all in what you like.
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I'm sitting out this season and it isn't easy. Got tired of writing checks. I've raced for 39 years, the hassles at the track don't bother me, but I have to admit the more bracket racing and fast dragster racing I do the more I enjoy it. It's coming down to bang for the buck and what's the best value for $$$ spent. Hope to see everyone next year.
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I've been on the fence the past year or so about buying a dragster or driving someone elses 2nd car and going bracket racing. I think we all have a great point in why car counts are down. The Economy is one and a huge one at that, The weather has been crappy all year long and people who live long distances are not going to travel and burn gas to sit in the rain plus I think even if they tore down Leb Valley and rebuilt it people still would not come which is ashame to the new owners and what they have done with the track. I think even with the repaving job and no more water seeping up just the past races at that track have put a bad taste in many people's mouth. You still have the issues with parking when it rains and the mud pit, the dirt track next door starting a cloud after a certain time. I just think the car counts have always been down a little at that track compared to MG and Atco plus it's put right on a national holiday in which most families are traveling to the shore and racers don't want to travel in that mess (We all know cars don't realize what racers tow with and like to cut everyone off).
To me NHRA racing is not as much fun as it used to be and it's now run by non-racers and it's all about the bottom line rather then people having fun anymore. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to understand what the sportsman racer goes through and for the longest time thats how it was run. As Dave said the little associations and bracket racing is taking off because it's a "No BS" run league. You can go to a MASGA or NESSA race, get 2 time shots (Not get bumped to the next day or wait till 11pm to get a run) run the race in 1 day, have a great meal, leave if you want too or run a 2nd race again on the next day. There's no strings attached with the associations and you're seeing more and more of them popping up. We all know the sport we are in and no matter what or how much money we put in we will never get that back so complaining about the payout is senseless. Just bracket racing is looking better and better and the payout is great. Look at Atco on July 31st to the 2nd, $775.00 to enter the whole weekend and a chance to win $ 75,000.00 dollars. Now you have to be totally on your game and have to deal with some heavy hitters but you have to do the same at a NHRA meet for $ 1,800.00 dollars to win. Just my 2 cents... |
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Just FYI Howard Commander said that he had 40 more cars then last year. Might still be less then most tracks, but up is better then down.
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The Seattle National event has a full S/C field of 70 cars...
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2008 2009 TD 25 40 TS 25 37 SC 54 56 SG 48 44 SST 60 56 S/Stk 55 60 Stk 105 104 |
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MG this year
TD 32 TS 35 SC 76 SG 64 SST 64 S/Stk 98 Stk 116 |
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LVD +25 what was MG in 08? curious to see if it fell off
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Dave take that car count to the next level and multiply by 170.00 and see what you get .
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I can recall a few years when S/C was almost always over 100 cars and as high as 140 cars at E-Town one year as it went 8 rds to win. S/G car counts have been down as was S/S for quite a few years. Stock was about the only category that was up a fair amount the last few years. There were events where Stock had over 128 cars and one that was over 150...MG just a few years ago.....A S/G car became very expensive to build so many people opted for a dragster for it's ability to win at both S/C and bracket racing. I think the Super classes have become stagnant and boring even to those that have raced it a lot....ME included. Speed up the indexes.......maybe it would help.......Makes no sense to run the same indexes for 20+ years and the HP levels are up by almost double in some cars....In the '80's a S/G car went 140.....That is not even a good speed for a S/ST car today.....'Stopping a 1000+hp motor down to run 8.90 9.90 or even10.90 is a rediculous way of racing.......thats just my opinion.....and me and my opinion are running brackets here and there......and running what I got for HP wide open.......When I get more "motor" and HP in my car,maybe next year, I will run T/D at a few races......
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:eek: Wheres it all go :eek: |
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TD 25 TS 42 SC 80 SG 84 SST 66 S/Stk 92 Stk 115 485 in 2008, 504 in 2009 I think the car counts for the most part were worse last year, mostly due to gas being 4 bucks a gallon last year, and this year I think its a little bit of carry over, the bad economy, spending more time checking the weather (like alot did for Atco, and I'm sure some of that affected LVD).. But back to the reason for this thread, note the car counts are up for TD and TS..I understand it, especially for the TD guys...I saw some local bracket racers runng TD at the valley, and some were running in "bracket" trim and a few added the blue bottle...So you can go fast, no throttle stop...Not so easy for TS as you need a fast door car to begin with... THE FANS LOVED IT !!!!!! Especially when the real fast cars were out there....Maybe it is time for NHRA to do something with the indexes...Again this weekend I heard statements that throttle stop racing was stupid, all them damn electronics, they're scared to run fast, blah blah blah...although there will still be 150 mph SST cars, 170 mph SG cars and they will use the stop unless there is some major change..and to tell you the truth I'm sure there are guys who dont want a change , and thats their right, and I dont think that the top guys at NHRA want to change it, cause cars will always show up and lets face it, especially at a National we are filler..... |
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Jeeezzz, I just noticed that I am posting like Jason....where is he ?
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Dave , I just think you just miss hanging out with us all at the NHRA races. Either that or your just really really bored...haha.
Should come play with the MASGA guys at Numidia in August, not sure how far that is from your house but it's prob. the closest. |
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Hey Dave.... I didn't see Comp on your list..... I think there were 12 last year and 20 or 21 this year..... but that doesn't really compare to Maple Grove where thet usually fill the 32 car field with a few going home.....
and you're right..... the fans loved T/D and T/S..... which is why I believe they will be at National Events shortly, and someone is getting bumped...... it will all come down to how much it costs NHRA to run what classes.... Personally, I have to decide where to go..... it looks like it's going to be move up, or back to brackets.... |
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When I brought up the subject of eliminating throttle stop timers last year, people were calling for my head and the thread was locked down. I still think it would be in the best interest of the class to get the costs back down and the spectator appeal back up. In the late 80's and early 90's, many spectators stuck around to watch us even at national events. Somewhere I have some photos of me racing at Seattle and Sonoma, with packed grandstands. From very limited sample size (I've only been to a few points meets in the last few years) it does appear that TS & TD are growning while SC/SG/SST are shrinking. If I could afford it I would probably build a TS car, but I still do enjoy the pro tree, heads-up aspect of S/G. Regards, |
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Lowering the indexes might help repair the perception of throttle stop racing. If you took a second off the indexes (7.90 for S/C for example), the cars would be on the stop for much less time, and wouldn't probably have to drop down in RPM so far. They'd look much less "stupid" to the uninitiated.
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You know, as much as I like the pro tree heads up aspect of the super classes, the only way that the spectators will ever "get it" is if we get rid of the stops...as long as there is an index and stops are allowed, there will be guys building 8 second cars to run 10.90 and 7 second cars to run 9.90....
If NHRA cared or wanted to care about making spectators happy, they would change the classes to make it so we dont leave at 6000 rpm only to die to nothing and slowly come back... Non technical guys/gals/kids want to see burning rubber , loud cars and wheelies.... It would be very easy to make the super classes bracket type classes, like TD and TS... Heck there are lots of cars that when they switch from SC and SG to TD and TS become wayyy cool...so why cant they run like that all the time... Anyone who doesnt think that this is what "fans"want, go sit in the stands for a round of classes, sst thru TD and sit near some families and listen to the comments.... Its all good....we as racers just have to make up our minds to be happy with whatever we choose to race... |
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I really like the MASGA stuff, problem is that all the tracks are far away...Atco is 200 miles one way, MG is 230, Numidia 210...bad part about living upstate NY I guess...spoiled going to LVD 59 miles one way... |
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Wow didn't know Numidia was that far for you to drive!! I guess you get spoiled when you have Atco 25 min from my house, MG about 80 miles, Cecil about 100 miles and E-town about 75 miles from my house.
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Guess one has to decide if the racing is for the racer or the spectator. As a racer, I think throttle stop racing is a blast. Anytime the MOV is routinely less than a hun, that's fun racing.
I understand why spectators think it's "weird". But I've explained it 1000 times, and once people get it, their reaction is almost always "OMG, that's *hard*". |
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Oh Ya, I think I put it in the .90 section. It's called lowering the index. |
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Regards, Pat I. |
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We've explained throttle stop racing to some spectators ourselves and it's true - once they understand it, they respect how hard it is!! Showing clips explaining would be best way to get to more than 1 or 2 spectators!! |
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A video for the big screen is a great idea. Super class racers understood weather changes long before the pros did.
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[QUOTE=Lynn Hoosigian;129417]EXCELLENT idea!!!!
We've explained throttle stop racing to some spectators ourselves and it's true - once they understand it, they respect how hard it is!! Showing clips explaining would be best way to get to more than 1 or 2 spectators!![/Q Lynn,you guys are in the same boat as us S/SSers.The fan of today could care less about us or our cars.They aren't car people anymore.They're thrill seekers in general.Noise,flames,crashes,autographs. We've been bouncing this around in the S/SS section for years now.The only spectators here in Div 1 at division's are ourselves,friends and those who come to see the booked in pro mod/or whatever show. We don't do it for money,most of us anyway,just for fun and the great people we get to meet. I drove 4 1/2 hours to run at Beaver Springs at the York Reunion.It was the most fun I've ever had with my pants on.attended the York Reunion at the fairgrounds on fridayAll the nostalgia races are looking better every year.No pressure for points,good people,good racing and fans that are attuned to the cars. Just my 1 1/2 cents,the economy is bad. |
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.........i think your all looking in the same direction as a lot of us........the individual groups are starting to seem the way to go........you won't win a wally, but the race is built around your class............years ago i remember going to s/c,s/g s/sst races,, its your race............even if it came down to a track rental for a pro tree association........or something like that.........it seems like you continue to get less for more from nhra...............i'm starting to like ihra's format...............run a couple of races in one weekend..........masga is the best thing going for super gas in our area.............the people are great, its a fun family outing & the tracks almost seem to really want you there.......................its a business......we're customers.........................if you went to a grocery store & they kept taking your money & kicking you in the d%$# ...you'd find another store to give your money to.........after all these years, short of having bottemless pockets ....its really getting to be old hat.................lucky gives you the best race possible , & uncle buck & the boys give you the best food & entertainment...............it works for me.............................but thats just my opinion............& we all know what they say about opinions..........!
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Wayne, you hit it right on the head...
I'm too old/impatient/something and I really got bored with Div racing...I love all the fun after hours and enjoy seeing racers that I would only see at the D1 races, but that being said, after about 10 years of a steady diet of it...... Right now I'm racing the NESSA series (a 10.90 series at LVD), bracket racing, "special events" racing, I did the LVD D1 race and will probably race ETown,going to race in Maryland Labor day and having a great time...makes for a nice mix of racing, and all are one day races, or Sat/Sun events.... |
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