AHFS details
I need the details of any combo that was hit to go to NHRA with. They have guaranteed no reprecussions so I will take them at their word. Please e-mail it to me jefft@southlanddodge.com. The more details the better. Thanks.
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Sonny Stancil needs about 40 more. :D
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I thought Sonny should be reduced by 5, but then I'm a Mopar guy. I don't know any different.
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Jeff, you will be getting an email from me. Someone changed the rules this year without telling anybody. I talked with Nitro Joe at Columbus and he confirmed that for the last 5 years, that he was compiling stats for the AHFS, that your fastest run at that event counted as one hit. The system was put into place to eliminate super good conditions at one track, ie Englishtown in 2003, causing horsepower hits.
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Byron
It has always been my understanding that only one run [ your fastest run ] MORE THAT .50 UNDER per national event count on AHFS. Since there is a new group compiling the information now the interruption of the rule may be different.If so that is somthing we should know. Please copy me and any other S/SS committee members on any information you have where more than one run has been counted at a single national event. Thanks very much Mike Crutchfield mikec@coker.com |
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Cajun Sportsnation A/SA 11:30 [-1.219] LS1 RAM AIR Russo
"""""""""""""""""""""" A/SA 11:30 [-1.193] LS1 RAM AIR Latino Gatornationals C/SA 11:70 [-.253] LS1 RAM AIR Warren These are National events only. I am not picking on any one but from Jan.1st 2009 thru June 30,2009 there has been no "FLAT non-ram air" Hood cars run under -1.15 per index at a National event Jeff these #'s comes from Nitro Joe stats |
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You may be biased. Just kidding. |
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Mike, that is the way it was for the previous 4-5 years. I don't have the numbers but the LT1, in super stock, didn't run 1.15 under at two national events in the 1st review period but received 4 horsepower. It should not even have been reviewed if the previous rules were still in effect. I think that is the case for about 75% of the horsepower that was levied.
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Gatornationals C/SA 11:70 [-.253] LS1 RAM AIR Warren '98 Firebird
I overlooked the year.. I would love to know who if anyone "HIT" the -115 under with a FLAT non-ram air HOOD LS1 Combination |
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Bo
In previos years they DID COUNT Sports Nationals runs in the AHFS system. It was always explained to me that they are National Events w/national points, w/o grading points and 1.15 was the trigger not 1.40. I recieved an 8 HP gift in 2007 1st 1.15+ hit at Indy, 2nd hit 1.130+ @ Columbus Sports. Remember it well. Apparently that was another 2009 AHFS change that they forgot to announce until after the fact. Dave |
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Does anyone have a copy of the rule found on the NHRA website from one year ago before the more resent change in wording? Please let me know.
Mike Crutchfield 800-531-0855 |
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Bo, you must have taken speed typing, or you got somebody to do it. You ain't that good. I think the Sportsnationals were in the data until 2009. I think the earned hp adjustments should be rescinded until the end of the year and have 4 triggers to review. Let's face it, NHRA is like a lot of companies, a little short on time and help right now. By Nov 15, we could have all these issues resolved and a true adjustment to the system. I don't see any reason to change the requested adjustments.
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JEFF, you have mail
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Mike, I received a reply from an e mail I sent regarding the horsepower on the LT1!!! It stated that all three runs counted that triggered the review were from the same race!!!! This is NOT how the AHFS has worked in previous years!!!! I will forward that e mail to you and Jeff!! I will also forward this on to Evan Smith, since he is the div. 1 rep!!
This is not right and something needs done, since this will obviously effect me in an upcoming national event that has class elims!!! I'm sure, looking at the combos that were given horsepower, that there are many others in the same boat as me and I hope they voice their displeasures of taking one up the old wazoo!!! |
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It is possible to trigger 3 times at 1 race if it was 3 diffent cars. I asked that question this morning to a Tech offical.
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It's always been ok for 3 different cars to trigger at any event. However only one per car perevent. Think 3 1s' Brannon.... 1car1driver1event. I need a blackboard.
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Wade |
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Looks like we have been "BAMBOOZLED"
Reread the Major changes #'s 1 and 2 it does say all runs are counted.......not the best runs like we all thought. And they asked for our input......!!!!!!!!!! Taken from the 2007 NHRA archives..... Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) changes for 2008 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12/10/2007 The NHRA Tech Department has revised, for racers' review, the AHFS factoring system for the Stock and Super Stock eliminator categories for the 2008 season. Two major changes proposed for 2008 are: 1. At national events where class eliminations are run, all runs of class will be included in the AHFS database. 2. Engine family and class/engine averages will be based on the number of runs for any particular combination using a sliding scale. This format will help alleviate the inequity that has existed for combinations that have limited numbers of competitors. Racers are asked to review the proposed 2008 AHFS format for 2008 and submit their input to racerinput@nhra.com All racers are asked to please include their current permanent number and category for verification of current status. AHFS 2008 The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower or index adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and all elimination runs (E data) at NHRA national events only, with the exception of altitude adjusted tracks. At National events where class eliminations are run, all rounds of class are included in the AHFS database. The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS. The first review period includes data from national events 1 through 12 and the second period includes runs from events 13 through 24. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data: Final qualifying and elimination runs of 1.15 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA national events, with the exception of altitude adjusted tracks, will trigger an automatic review. Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor. (The engine family combination must make at least two runs of 1.15 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.15 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine family combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average equal to or faster than the numbers shown below, based on the number of runs in the database. Runs of .50 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages: · Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening. · Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied. · Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types. If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be equal to or faster than the numbers shown below, based on the number of runs in the database, a change will be initiated. Runs reviewed Engine family average or Class/Engine average 1- 5 1.00 6 – 10 0.95 11 – 15 0.90 16 – 20 0.85 21 – more 0.80 To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period: Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187-second under the index, triggering a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (two in K/SA and eight in L/SA) with a total engine average of .945-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 0.95 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average. The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 1.00-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros. An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected. Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase: Under Index Horsepower Increase Index Change 1.150 – 1.299 1.25% -.05 1.300 – 1.399 2.25% -.10 1.400-or greater 3.25% -.15 (immediate change) Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage. Runs of 1.40 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted as soon as such runs were made. Runs at divisional events and National Opens are included in the 1.40 second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a 3.25 percent horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated immediately. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department. |
Re: AHFS details
[QUOTE=RPinoski1;133384]Looks like we have been "BAMBOOZLED"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12/10/2007 The NHRA Tech Department has revised, for racers' review, the AHFS factoring system for the Stock and Super Stock eliminator categories for the 2008 season. Two major changes proposed for 2008 are: Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor ************************************************** ************************************************** *************** If this is a correct statement from NHRA then the concept of getting 2 triggers by the same driver on 2 different runs at the same event is incorrect Bob Bob. |
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It is clear as a bell in this paragraph. Best run per event.....
Final qualifying and elimination runs of 1.15 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA national events, with the exception of altitude adjusted tracks, will trigger an automatic review. Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor. (The engine family combination must make at least two runs of 1.15 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.15 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine family combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average equal to or faster than the numbers shown below, based on the number of runs in the database. Runs of .50 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages: Mulry, You are amazingly thorough....probably explains why your stuff flies!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Some combo's earned the HP even using last seasons AFHS rules. Shouldn't they keep their HP factor additions?
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I'm sure Mike and Jeff will have this fixed soon.........
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Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor
That sentence does not appear in the current AHFS rules. Patsy |
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Oh Boy here we go, mysteriously the "Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor" has been omitted.
Taken from current NHRA site AHFS explained 2009: Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) explained The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and final elimination runs (E data) at NHRA national events only. (At events where class eliminations are run, all runs are included in the AHFS database. Only the first round of class is part of qualifying and therefore is part of the "Q" database.) The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS. The first review period includes data from national events 1 through 12 and the second period includes runs from events 13 through 24. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data: Final qualifying, class eliminations, and elimination runs of 1.15 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA national events will trigger an automatic review. (The combination must make at least two runs of 1.15 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.15 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average faster than 1.00-second under. Runs of .50 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages: •Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening. •Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied. •Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types. If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be faster than 1.00-second under, a change will be initiated. To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period: Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .945-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 1.00 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average. The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 1.00-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros. An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected. Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase: Under Index Horsepower Increase Index Change 1.150-1.299 1.25% -.05 1.300-1.399 2.25% -.10 1.400-or greater 3.25% -.15 (immediate change) Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage. Runs of 1.40 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted as soon as such runs were made. Runs at National Events, Divisional Events, and National Open Events, including those at altitude factored race tracks, are included in the 1.40-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a 3.25 percent horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated immediately. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department. |
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It seems to be the "old" rule. Read the line where only the first round of class counts in the Q data!!! It says right before that that all runs are included in the database????
Was anybody notified of a rule change concerning the AHFS as we were in 2008?? I was certainly not aware of any changes???? Are we now making up rules and changing rules as we go along??? |
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bryan "are we know making up rules & changes as we go along?"
DUH... we've been doing it for years, just stop in the barn at indy and watch travis & company toss em and gracia & glendora put them back in !!!! jack and oh by the way i restate my now famous quote for the UMPTEENTH TIME "THE AUTOMATIC HELP FOR SLUGS (AHFS) CANNOT AND WILL NOT EVER WORK" |
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Well, I have sent in all the info and numerous emails about the issues. And so have most of the other members of the committee. At this point, I am discouraged. I guess I just don't understand the program or the administration of it. Maybe I'm just too old, or I am convoluted from the Cash for Clunkers federal program which is also a mess.
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After reading all of the confusion regarding the AHFS,it almost makes me feel fortunate that I have a slow car and combo.
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Along the lines of NHRA not telling about the rule change. Did anyone notice the super stock rod rule change? Maybe I missed the notice but I just got it. ANY journal size? On a sbc small journal you can now use a even smaller rod/bearing. Is this a old rule? Something I missed? Sorry to hijack the thread it just goes along with NHRA seamingly lack, or any reasoning on what they decide to do. I have never understood how NHRA is using/implementing the AHFS rule?
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Wastin' time
This "simple" AHFS system (Len Imbrogno) has been a tangled mess from the beginning; NHRA explanations, Dragster articles, web site clarifications repeated tech inquiries, calls, SRA, SRAC....whatever...it is poorly written policy open to interpretation, which is just what bureaucratic organizations want. We got bit a few years ago when our 1.15 hits (two) were done in different segments....we thought we were safe according to the printed rules at the time, and our opinion was confirmed by: Jeff Tueton, Nitro Joe, Div 5 tech officials, but subsequently overruled by Bob Lang with the following statement: "you just get it....if you don't like it, race someplace else" It has been interesting to me to watch other racers impacted unfairly to finally "get it" and complain. I and a few others were banging this drum many years ago....only to fall of deaf ears. Years ago some thought NHRA just wanted to get rid of us (S & SS)....oh no, NHRA protested, S & SS are the "backbone" of our sport, but you couldn't dream up a better scheme if you tried than to enhance us out of the picture one dumb move after another. It seems as if NHRA is drugged up on TV money, but as the Pros slowly implode with this economic tsunami, the Sportsman continue to build $75,000+ cars to race for chump change, because we are hooked on our hobby Too bad NHRA knows this |
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I agree with JACK !
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I agree with Ron who agrees with Jack
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Yep, robert the any rod journal size rule is an effect. I belive its been like that for 2yrs. Stephen Johnson #2162 Horace Johnson #2167 SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA |
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Any news on the AHFS???
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Byron and ALL
I am sorry guys. I know I owe a lot of you a call or email reguarding this issue but it has been a on-going conversation with NHRA about the issue. Yes there has been very much email conversation with Pat Cvengros the technical service representive for NHRA with copies going to all of our council members and Glen Gray and Graham Light and Danny Gracia. The conversation focuses on the wording of the new AHFS rule this year compared to the previous years. The basic rule is the same but it has been re-arranged and the omission of a key paragraph is the root of all of the problems with the system today. That sentence reads ( Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor) Without that sentence the collection of all 1.15 under runs at a single event will be counted and only one run per other competitor with the same combination is counted if it is over 1.15 under. It is not clear how or why that sentence was omitted or if it was intentional or a error. But that is how the rule was applied. I and several of the SARA members position on this is there cannot be a fair sampling of the classes unless the key sentence is re-placed in the wording of the rule. Please feel free to express your concerns to NHRA if you feel the need. They are very busy people but I know they want to be consistent with the way they apply rules and a expression of concern from each racer would go a long way in getting the system back to a more fair way of sampling. Thanks Mike Crutchfield S/SS Council Member |
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Greg Schenck |
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