D/Dart in Stock
 

Does the NHRA rulebook for this year address the D/Dart in stock?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

The on line classification guide still shows the 273/275 still legal for SS only. Don't know if it's published somewhere else.

Jim R

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

So is it the number of production cars built that keeps it out of stock?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

The Rule Book includes a paragraph that states, in essence, IF THE MANUFACTURER REQUESTS, specially constructed cars in a quantity of at least 50 units MAY be included in the Classification Guide. These cars are not required to be or to have been showroom available. This exception to the original rule of 500 units (that rule is still in the book, by the way) was added several years years ago before the latest generation of cars produced especially for drag racing began to appear. Under this loophole, manufacturers are encouraged to produce specialty cars like the 2008 Mustangs and the Chrysler Drag Package cars for Stock Eliminator. Obviously, most manufacturers see no return for the time spent homologating a 40+ year-old model but occasionally, there is someone correctly placed in their organization who appreciates drag racing and can pull it off. Sadly, these days, most of those individuals are either looking for work or nursing a mint julep and enjoying their Golden Parachute. I don't look for the Chrysler organization to put much effort in getting the "D Dart" cars approved for Stock Eliminator although, stranger things have happened.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Could you not, as a racer, make a case to the NHRA that if they allow only fifty new Challengers into stock, why can't they allow the D/Dart into stock as it was built in those same limited numbers?

Jim R

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Jim,

A racer making that case is considered to have no standing and would be pretty much disregarded. A manufacturer, on the other hand MAY be given consideration. Note the line in the Rulebook that says, "acceptance will not imply precedent."

It would seem to me that there is no benefit to Chrysler or any adjunct of Chrysler to petition for acceptance of an older model. They would, ostensibly, like to sell new cars and therefore the Challengers and Ford's new Mustang make more sense for this kind of option.

c

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

I dont know why anyone would spend the time to try it because this is a tough and over rated combination. It is not that much better than the 235 combo that is already out there. I would hate to fight 396 camaros, 400 firebirds, 305 hp hemi challengers or any other good E car that is out there with this one. They are a neat piece of history.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul, that's a part of the equation that no one has even approached so far. Having said that, people have had some remarkable success building stone combinations and then petitioning to have power removed. The Dart might look a little better if it was rated at about 240 horsepower. We can both cite numerous cases in which such things have been done regularly.

c

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

A large part of the appeal of Stock Eliminator, and to a lesser degree, Super Stock over the years, has been the seemingly endless variety of competitive cars that have shown up to do battle, often times, successfully, on the quarter mile. There have been cars that you just don't see raced, that have appeared in this, or that Stock class, with amazing performances that defy logic sometimes, but they have been a fact of life in Stock Eliminator for many years.

Jack Mullins' hulking Pontiac wagon; Richard Charbonerau's 427 Fairlane wagon, Bob Shaw's Turbo 4-banger Capri and now, his one-off Cadillac Seville, Gordon Williams' Studebakers, and Ted Harbit's ill-fated Chicken Hawk, featured in this month's HOT ROD magazine, a multi-time class winner at Indy... There have been Corvairs that went like gangbusters, and cars like Cap'n Jack's land barge that continue to make waves and entertain us.... year, after year.

I don't know whether there's anybody left at NHRA with enough "experience" or interest in Stock Eliminator to appreciate this facet of the racing that goes on in Stock and S/S, but, if there is, they should appreciate the value of the variety that has come down the pike on the starting line over the years, and realize that even though '69 Camaros may BE the ultimate Stock Eliminator car for a variety of reasons, nobody wants to sit and watch a race in which every third car IS a '69 Camaro.

In that vein, it would seem to be in NHRA's interest to assist racers who want to run a car that you don't see a lot of, in getting their car homologated; That is something that NHRA can do that costs very little money, and would benefit the "show" down the road, when the newly-homologated cars hit the strip and spectators begin noticing the "new kids on the block."

In reference to the currently-illegal D-Darts in Stock, there aren't that many mid-'60s A Body MoPars running these days. It would be nice to see some more...

I'm sure there are a lot of other combinations that NHRA could legalize, if they WANTED TO, and they should want to.... It would benefit everybody, including them, I think. A 7-pound-per-HP, top Stock class might free up some cars that are now, S/S only... (I don't mean "Top Stock" as in a separate eliminator; I mean the "top" Stock Eliminator class... above the current 7.5-pound AA class.)

Just my 2-cents...

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill, are you thinking Hemi Darts and Barracudas is stock? That would be way cool!!!

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

No.... there are some cars that are just not appropriate for Stock Eliminator, and I think you just named two of them. LOL!

As much as I love the 426 Hemi A-Bodies, I think that running them in Stock would benefit no one.... they were just too much of a race car when Ma Mopar had them built to ever be considered "Stock," but ya gotta love 'em... I do, anyway...

I was thinking more about borderline cases like the '64 Mopar S/S Stage III wedge cars with lightweight front ends, the A990 cars, and certain other low-production cars that couldn't run Stock because of insufficient numbers having been built, like the D-Dart, Buick '87 GNX Grand Nationals, and Z-11 '63 Chevys.... '63 Pontiac Catalinas with the lightweight (swiss cheese) frame, and maybe some Buick Stage II stuff... Ram Air V Pontiac engines...

I'm not that knowledgeable, but I know that over the years, certain factory packages have been dis-allowed in Stock because of low production numbers.

Bringing back the pre-'60 cars would be great, too, but I can't see that happening; too many technical considerations.... NHRA Tech doesn't really need that.... and, that's too bad, because there were some VERY entertaining cars from that period, racing.... before the ban. :(

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

NHRA = $$$$$, not what the racers would like to see.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

I think I did name two of them Bill, but I do love them too. In fact, I'm building a '68 Dart Hemi clone/replica/tribute which will be legal for crate motor stock with a 360 Commando combination. Maybe a Hemi some day. It's cool that IHRA will allow the body in Crate Stock, but sucks the NHRA won't. As far as them fitting in Top Stock, I can't see it either. And it wouldn't be any fun running one with a bunch of extra weight.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

That crate 360 clone is gonna be a fun car!!! Let us know when you get it ready to run.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Todd,

You have a PM.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill, I could be wrong but the last time I looked the stage 3 alum. 64 was listed, I dont think any one has alum laying around, the price they bring is huge. A nose in good shape brings in excess of ten grand. There are a couple 63s out there but they run mostly 415hp but the car runs AA.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

What do you think a complete aluminum nose for a '63 is worth?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Start at $10000 and work your way up buy condition and what the market will bear. A 63 alum half rotted car just sold on ebay for 320000 no engine or trans and I mean ruff, it was supposed to be a real car. The price in my opinion was more than half for the alum.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Thanks for the good info, Bob. I remember one car, a '61 Pontiac that had a dealer-installed "hop-up" package that would have been neat to see in Stock, but since it was never a showroom option, it never will be, I'm sure.

It was a '61 Catalina 2-door hardtop driven by Charlie Mitchell, who was a new car salesman at a Pontiac dealerhip in England, Arkansas, and one of those cigar-chomping, larger-than-life characters that are so rare, nowdays.
The engine was a high-compression 389 with three two barrels on an ALUMINUM intake manifold, with special big-valve heads and streamlined exhaust manifolds. It was the last gasp for the 389 before the 421's came on the scene, and ran 13.30's with a 4-speed. It had a decal on the front fender, "Ray Nichels Engineering" (a NASCAR guy, I think,) That engine was rated at the time, at 363 horsepower, but I have also seen it referred to as a 369 HP motor.... dunno which is correct.

It was the scourge of Stock that year, locally, until a dirt track racer showed up one day with a '62 Plymouth 413 cross-ram car with a 3-speed stick; instant 12.90s... :))

Charlie traded in his '61 for a '62 421 and raced for a long time, but none of his cars ever impressed me like that white '61 Catalina... it just LOOKED "fast"!!!!!!!!!

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Those SD parts were considered stock at one time back in the stone age. When NHRA decided to stop allowing over the counter parts and 4 speeds and Hydro's in 57 Chebbies all of those great SD 389's (1960-1961's) were eliminated. There were several racing in my area back around 62-66 and they were called the "INDIAN TRIBE". Max Sterlings White Lightening, The Pawnee of Sam Samuels, Mike Miatico who owned the M/T 61 Ventura that was driven by Carol and Lyod Cox in 61. Dick Hill out of Penn. with a 60 Catalina with a 4 speed and many more. The NHRA ruling made them all junk.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Thanks, Terry, for the info.

That is the sort of car that I think could bring a lot of variety back into Stock Eliminator in the new millinneum, but it's about as likely as the sun rising in the West, tomorrow morning...

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill....There were a couple of others I forgot to mention. The 60 Pontiac of Ronnie Broadhead (same class as Dick Hill) was a SD car from the west coast and the car won class at the 66 Winternationals with Butch Leal driving. One more ws a Div. 1 1960 station wagon called the "Big Bruiser" driven by a Joe Perzan (one of the INDIAN TRIBE) who was the Division points leader for awhile in what was then I/SA. Also a 389 SD with 3 X 2's. The guy who ran the M/T 61 Ventura also ran a SD 61 Wagon. These were neat cars and looked great with the 8 lug wheels and wide white wall tires. Bruce Morgan (a west coast guy) won a 61 SD Prize from Hurst Corp. for being the world champ when he was driving a 57 283 FI Belair Hard top in 61. OK Im done,,,,,LOL

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Great stuff, Terry...

I remember when Bruce Morgan won that Pontiac at Indy.... (I was there that year.) Bruce was an over-the-road truck driver who made enough "time off" from his day job, to follow the Points Tour that year and power-shifted his 283 270 HP Bow Tie to a Championship.

That was before the day of professional drivers in Sportsman Eliminators. A different world...

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Damn Bill! Your old! ;) Jim

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Thanks, Jim....

I was 23 in 1961...
I'd gone to the Oklahoma City NHRA Nationals in 1957 and '58; skipped the Detroit race in '59 and '60, but went to Indy in '61 and '62.

It was a little different than what we have, now...

No Christmas Tree, Handicap Starts, Breakouts, Dial-ins, Indexes, Contingency awards, Fuelers, Funny Cars, Pro Stockers, Motorcycles of any kind, Pro Mods, Alcohol Dragsters or Alky Funny Cars, Two-steps, Delay boxes, Radial slicks, '.90 cars of any kind, TV coverage, Major brand sponsorships, Multi-car teams ala Force's current stable, 1,000-foot racing for fast cars, Reversers in dragsters, 60-foot traps, Slicks on Stockers, "THE COUNTDOWN," (gag!), Eighteen Wheeler semi-trailer car haulers, Fuel injected Stockers, Lencos, Burst panels on supercharger manifolds, Jet track dryers, Reaction times, Wheelie bars on Stockers, Fines for oiling down the track, Insurance payments to cover Pro racers (there were none) attached to Sportsman entry fees,.... and, the list goes on....

What we DID have, was 1,200 race cars entered, and EVERY RACEwas a heads-up race!!!

You have no idea how that ENHANCES a drag race!!! :)

'nuff sed.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

For real?? Kinda cool that Luneack race's his then..

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Yes for real, Greg runs his and there are a few other 63 alum cars that run and a few in garages like Jerry Stein's

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bob, the number you posted is three hundred-twenty thousand. Did you mean $32,000 by any chance?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Oops, yea 32000. but the car was real ruff, a good comparison would be Dan Dvorak's 63 Dodge Alum car for sale at 79000. and is perfect.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

I thought you guys were talking about D-Darts.The only difference between a 273 Hi-Po (235 HP) and the 273/275 HP (D-Dart)was the camshaft (Cam-Craft .495/.505 lift / 284 duration), and Racer Brown 250 lb. ratedvalve springs.The carburetor was a Holley 600 cfm-rated, vacuum secondary unit, as opposed to theCarter 500-cfm AFB unit on the 235 HP rated engine. To allow for the Holley carb butterflies to open, the stock cast iron intake wasmodified (a free-breathing flow intake as Chrysler put it), the throat openings were bored out an additional 3/16".It really doesn't sound like a 40 HP improvement over the 273/235 HP Commando.I think the NHRA currently rates the 273/235 HP at (220 HP). As someone posted earlier, the D-Dart engine should be re-rated.Not that it would matter, because who in the hell would try to run this car in stock class, and be competitive. Not at 275 HP.Paul (Former 273/235 HP racer)

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

You guys forgot, Rod Kisters, famous 1960 Pontiac stocker, "BIG IRON", out of Scotts Bluff Nebraska. It was a daul four barrel 421 " 4 speed car.
Eddie Rezac

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

I guess tell that to Matt Steen. Of course he's running SS.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

This is just my opinion, but I don't think Matt Steen's motor is the "D-Dart" 275 HP motor.

Why?
Because you can't run a D-Dart motor in a Valiant, and his car is a Valiant... looks nothing like a Dart, has a different wheelbase, (106" vs. 111") and never had the 275HP option.

He must be running the 235HP "COMMANDO" 273, a different permutation of the 4bbl 1966 motor. The 275 HP motor is not in the Classification guide for Valiants, of ANY year...

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill,

"You are correct sir."
The D-Dart 275 HP engine was only available in the 66' Dodge Dart.
That 66' Valiant (running in SS/K) is a 273/235 HP engine (Commando).
What confuses people is the high class rating for the car.
Simple, that little thing only weighs 2750 lbs. NHRA factoring
2750 divided by 235 = 11.70 (SS/K or stock class H/Stock).
By comparison, our 67' Cuda 273/235 HP ran in K/Stock from 69' thru 71' (at Dover Drag Strip, Wingdale, NY). It fell into (2) classes higher than the Valiant, as the Cuda weighed 2940, with a perfect weight break of 12.51 wt/hp.
Also, hard to imagine, but our 68' 340 Cuda ran in SS/I in 72' thru 74', only (2) classes above that little Valiant.
Also had a 69' M-Code 440 Cuda, but that's another story for later.
It was very fast, but you could only go straight, and it wouldn't stop with those little drum brakes.

Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Thanks, Paul; that explains a lot!

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill,

I'll post proper info on the D-Dart later. But forget about the NHRA, If you want to re-classify the car you must put it in writing, and submit a request.
The only un-fortunate thing, you would probably be the only person in the
world that would want to run a 273/275hp car.
I forgot that NHRA re-rated the 273. thought it was set at 220 hp, and just found out on this thread or (For A-bodies only) it was re-factored to 210 hp.
Now thats a good thing. Confirms that 66' Valiant is correct for SS/K.
2725 by 210hp = puts that car in the 12.00 - 12.99 bracket, or J/Stock.

Also, as posted by the NHRA by mistake. The D-Dart was never put in a
heavier bodied convertible.
I'll post detailed info later today.

Paul (1969 to 1971, K/Stock 67' Cuda 273/235hp)

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill,

I was just pointing out the potential of the 273.

John

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

John (dart4forte),

No doubt, the 273 is a potent little unit, and durable too. We ran ours for
3 years, and never broke anything. but, those damn head gaskets would blow out every dozen races or so. Only 4 head bolts per cylinder.
Just saying, that trying to run a 273 at 275 hp against a 72'/73' 340 or
74' 360 would be a tough task enough. Too many cubes to deal with, and the later engines have bigger-valve heads.

D-Dart info. 1966, the D/Stock class break was 10.60 - 11.29 wt/hp factor. The car was specifically built for D/Stock, yet the car is listed from the factory with a Code; Super Stock Package. The 2-door sedan is listed with a 10.71 factor. Yet, the boneheads at NHRA list the car as a
possible convertible-car also. A heavier car with an 11.11 rating.
Why you ask. I don't know. Why in the hell would Dodge build a heavier car to fit in the same class (10.60 - 11.29). Call Edith Bunker at
NHRA, and ask her.
It would be like building a 68' Hemi Dart with a convertible, and fit it to be in the same class. Do you think the Mopar guys with all their tech brains
would make that kind of mistake? NO.
Year 1966. Barry and Ernie Musser of Pennsylvannia were tearing up the D/Stock class all over the place with their 61' Corvette 283/270Hp
dual-quad car. Running 12.90's. But, got beat at the 66' Winternationals
(February 66') by Dave Kempton. Running a 62' Plymouth which ran
in C/SA, running 13.08.

Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Sorry, John; I misunderstood. Paul Wong is.... well... let me put it this way: you'd have to look long and hard, and would probably ultimately fail, to find anybody with more knowledge of the 273 motor in ANY of its permutations, than Paul.... seriously.

If he says a combination will or won't "fly," it's very likely it's because he has been down that road, already, TWICE, and has first-hand experience... unlike dilettantes like me, who only knows what he reads.

Thanks for your comments.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

I believe Rods 1960 Pontiac was a 389 SD with 3 X 2's like Dick Hills 1960 Pontiac out of Penn. The 421 SD with 2 X 4's didnt come out until late 1961 and was run at the 1961 Nationals as O/SS. Anyone have some different info?