Heads-Up Runs
 

I was wondering what everyone thought about people getting off of it at 1000' and the purpose behind this. I understand getting HP is the main issue but why have the power if you are not going to use it.

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aw jeez

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Lol

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...Now, that is funny

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Don't feel picked on,this subject has been beat into the ground a few times on here,mostly when a new poorly factored combo comes out and causes mass hysteria.I don't go fast enough to click it at 1,000"
so maybe someone brave enough to get up and explain it will post on it.
It sure aint Jr dragster racing though.

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I posted this a few weeks ago, to another person who thought lifting early was "not racing".

"Flat out racing is great, but sometimes you have to dump to protect. I'll use the following example, Jim. Say early in the year, you and I have a heads-up run in, say, A/SA. You have a fairly common car (I'll use a '64 Fury Max Wedge as an example). I have a car that is pretty rare (say a '64 or '65 Nascar single 4 Hemi). You and I run Class somewhere early in the year. We both run flat out, both running 10.0's., and you get the win. You have plenty of other cars in your Class to bring the average for your combination down. I don't So, for running flat out, I get hit with HP, you don't, and now I'm further behind. Which can hurt later in the year, especially when it comes time for Indy, trying to win Class or even qualifying. It's this scenario, why racers, when at 1000' they realize they aren't going to win, will dump to protect their HP. It's not just Stock and S/S. David Rampy has done the same thing in Comp with his A/EA Bantam over the years. If he knows he won't get there (or even if he think he will but knows he'll kill the Index if he does), he'll dump, save the Index, to give himself a better chance down the road at winning. After 70+ National Event wins, I'd say Rampy's idea is a pretty smart one."

You WANT the power to go fast and/or to win a heads-up, but also have to be smart about how/when to USE it.

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AC should get the award for post of the year!!!!

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Lifting is not drag racing.Period!

Drag racing was invented as a sport to get form one stripe to the other as QUICKLY as you can.

Lifting, dumping, etc is an economic decision allowing you to stay competitive and win more money by sand bagging. It's the same as the .90 cars except you don't use electronics.

BUT, I'm a purist because I go so far back and I'm not in it for the money and I don't have near as much money in my car as you guys do, mine built from used parts just so I can go racing once in a while so my expectations from the sport are different from yours.

BTW, I raced Rampy and his SG opel all around AL and GA for years. Tried so hard to beat him once that I left on the second yellow lol!

Beat me up,

JimR

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So my next question then, when would you people classify an acceptable time to run it flat out? Indy Class and thats it?

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Once again you missed the point because of the current mindset.

You run flat out EVERY time you race, that's drag racing!

JimR

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JIm is right, mostly. Every run (heads-up runs, anyway) should be flat out, to me. But, if I'm in a heads-up with someone, and know that my car can run -1.15 (or more) and am behind with no chance to catch my opponent, I, and most anyone, is going to lift, try and save the HP factor for my combo, and hope my opponent does run fast enough to get hit. I, and 90+% of the other racers out there, are NOT going to take a HP hit AND lose the race. It's like losing twice in one race.

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I should add, to further answer your question, that most Class racers are not flat-out in Eliminations. The car is tuned back, in "bracket mode", to be more consistant. The only time a car is tuned up to go fast is Class Eliminations (any race, but Indy especially), heads-up runs in the Eliminator, Record Runs, or if they want to qualify near the top to get a favorable spot on the ladder. A racer once wrote that their car would become "evil" at time when set up on "kill" (huge wheelies, etc), so most tune them back for the shoe-polish part of the Eliminator. Example, having an A/SA that would go 10.40's in "bracket mode", and run 10.0's in all-out mode. The car would tend to repeat more consistantly running 10.40's, hence that reason.

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Thank you Mike for the clarification! I've got one situation I would like to hear your thoughts on. So lets say you have someone covered (or believe to have someone covered), you play it safe on the tree and get "treed" by .05, would you risk running -1.15 knowing you would receive HP to get back around them to get the round win or just dump and race another weekend?

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Yeah, I probably would. -1.15 won't get you hurt *too* bad. The rule was you had to run -1.15 twice (at different Nat'l events), or you, plus one other racer with your combo (at that or another Nat'l) both had to run -1.15 to triggger an evaluation, and if that particular combo averaged more than one second under during that half of the season (all data goes into first or second half of the season), it would then get HP. Which favors a combination with many cars running it ('67-'69 Camaros with a 396 or 350, '80 something 305 Camaros, for example). There could be two slow cars for every fast one, and the combination would not average a second under, and be safe from getting hit with horsepower. A one of a kind or rare combo, like those I have raced, where there are few or no one to bring the average down, could get hit with HP more easily). The rules were changed slightly for this season, and one racer earned HP by making two runs of more than -1.15 at the same Nat'l. He was the only racer with that combo, at the only Nat'l he ran all year, and received HP, so the rules may have changed. However, if a racer runs more than -1.40 at ANY race (Nat'l, Divisional, Nat'l Open, during qualifying, Class or Eliminator), they get automatic HP the Monday after the race, and more then they would if the combination averaged, say, -1.18 for that particular half of the year. So with that long, complex explanation, YES, I would run -1.15 and take the win and take the chance of maybe getting hit, as long as I got the Wally at the end of the day. If I knew I was going to go -1.20 on that run and STILL NOT WIN, I would lift and live to fight another day.

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Jim Rountree

So your telling me that when there is class run off''s and theres 9 cars and you know that your in the middle of the pack you run wide open in the first round of class even though you KNOW you have the guy covered, lets say by 3 tenths? Why? Why would you show the other guys in your class what you have? SO they can go back and find more ET? Speak softly and carry a big stick is what I was taught and by the looks of how this post is going everyone else agrees. Im always bagging 1 1/2 to 2 tenths when I bracket race and when its heads up time...throw a tunup in and go. But I guess for the purists in the class thats a nono. Those same guys dial everything tight and run it out the door every time when they are bracket racing....never scrub the brakes, never burp the throttle. Trapped in the days when there was 29 SS/L cars to run against and when Christ was a cowboy running the Crondek Timing equipment. 5 years ago in Norwalk Ohio at a IHRA National there was only going to be 2 GT/DA cars racing as of thursday night...friday while we were in the lanes making the first time run 2 more pulled in. We dumped at the 1000 and scrubbd the brakes to a 10.40. The two guys that pulled in late grabbed a qualifying sheet, seen that we were the slowest and never Radial'd or tuned up the cars. Guess what...they were both out in the first round of class because of that, They had all the GT/DA cars covered by a tenth or more easy with a tuneup and tire change. So is it smart to lift....?

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Mikey, Mikey, Mikey

I guess that you missed the NHRA change regarding the setting of AHFS triggers for 2009.

NHRA omitted from the AHFS the statement that is posted on their web-site in the Competition Section "Only the quickest run of each event is recorded for each competitor"

Get killer air at 1 (one) National Event at sea level, run 2 (two) runs that are -1.15 or quicker under and you have instant trigger.

I guess that NHRA figured that the best way to keep the Stock & Super Stock racers informed of updates to the system was by omitting certain words to completely change the way that the AHFS is operated.

In my opinion that is a perversion of the process.

What ever happened to full disclosure and a list posted on the NHRA web-site of the year to year changes to the AHFS???

It just makes me feel that the NHRA is our adversary and not our partner, with always trying to get over on us.

Kind of gives you that warm fuzzy feeling when you hear "I'm from the NHRA and I'm here to help you"

But I suggest that if you hear that, look over your shoulder and don't bend over.

Bob


Disclaimer:
NHRA has many fine and upstanding employees of high moral fiber but these are not the people who have established the punitive policies that we have to deal with. Thanks to ALL of the dedicated NHRA employees who against tremendous odds attempt to improve the Drag Racing experience and you know who you are.

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Hi Bob. Yeah, I knew they changed something this year, that's why I stated about the car that ran one Nat'l all this year and got hit. It was a V/SA Mopar at Topeka. Qualified #1, and got hit from that race's data only, which was never like that before. I remember the uproar on this forum in late July after several combos got hit. I also remember reading something about the process changing based on how many cars were involved in the trigger process, in a sliding scale format of how much HP and/or how many cars in the date accumulation will be dished out, but I can't find it now. I agree, if there is a system in place, regardless WHAT it is (AHFS, Grade Points, etc), it should be PUBLISHED, so everyone can see in black and white what the rules are. Hard to play by the rules when one doesn't know what they are. Hope things are well out in California.

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Anthony that was GREAT!! Buff Daddy for d1 director!

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Thanks Keith, figured some humor could do us all good. See you at Atco!

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Anthony that is definitely the best response I have seen in quite a while.

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When I was bracket racing sometimes I would dump if a faster car blew by me at the stripe.

In over 40 years of class racing I have never dumped nor let off at 1000ft. I always ran it out the back door. Cause that's drag racing.

Let me ask you a question: if you can run 1.14 under and they hit you with 4hp can't you still run about 1 under, if they hit you with 10 hp couldn't you still run under the index....sure you could.

JimR

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Mike,

In that instance you would be right, there is no sense in shooting yourself in the foot on a losing cause.

JimR

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Treesavoy,

Its guys like you that run it out the door all the time when its not nessisary and don't think about what NHRA/IHRA will do to the HP rating. Its guys like you that made the 300hp combo in super stock impossible to run anymore. Thank god guys are getting smart and are running 400 combo's and low HP 350 combo's because the 300hp combo would be re reated to 400hp by now. Pretty imbarrasing getting spanked in class by a 305 or a low hp 350. The 400 is the worst of them all. They are 410 inches by the time they are .070 over and have almost 12.0:1 compression because someone who does the blueprinting for NHRA doesnt know the proper chamber size of a 400 chevy.:rolleyes:

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Most engine builders including myself can still make the 350/200/322 a pretty respectable piece. It just takes a little more work than it did in the past. I would much rather qualify 1.1 under with the 350/300/322 knowing that it is somewhat closer to the proper factor than run the soft stuff. Also the 400 used to be rated (if my memory is correct) 25 hp. less. And like you said is still a very good piece of equipment. .

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SSENGINEGUY

I totally agree with you that you can make the 300hp combo work. But really at the end of the day it don't matter what casting number head you have...041/441/624...ect they are all the same when they get back from being transformed into an epoxy masterpiece. Ports are the same, chambers are close to being the same (041 a tad smaller) so really the engine is basically the same. Now days a good 255 will run circles around a 300. Ya they might make a little less torque because they are down 1 point in compress (big deal) but the engines are exactly the same but rated less. And the 400...a good one has to make 650hp and its rated less than a 300/327hp combo that will make 625hp. Ya im sure that guys are making more hp now but they are probably sacrificing tork for hp numbers and they slow down like crazy in the heat of the summer. Just my 2 cents.:).

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Keith, I don't know about all that...might upset a few people in that line of work. Hell, I can tick people off easy enough as it is. lol

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Exactly! And that is the reason they should be rated very close, if not the same. That is one of the reasons for the dumping and worrying about saving hp. Trying to save an already too low hp rating. Not just these particular 350 combos but many others like the 400 which is still a very competitive piece after adding quite a few hp. and dropping a class or two. There are quite a few other combos out there that could add 25 hp too and they would still run over 1.1 under. When these are brought into line (where they should have been in the first place) the "dash to hit the brakes" will come to an end. Until then: May the best bunny hop.

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I don't care if I get HP just as long as I can run under the index.

Please don't confuse me with someone that gives a crap about Chevy HP, I didn't give you hp, one of your chevy buddies did that!

JimR

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I feel that you could STOP 1000 ft. heads up racing in one of two ways. (A) raise the 1.15 and 1.40 triggers to a point where we could see how fast these cars really are. It's not fair to penalize a racer who is doing it the american way (dedication, perseverance, never quit, do it better than the next guy, and sacrifice). If you are the best at anything in this world, you are or will sacrifice something in life! I never saw a football team get penalized for putting 40 or 50 points up on the board. I cant imagine a quarterback having a man deep and wide open, thinking I can't throw it that far or I'm going to get my program hit (strap 10 pounds on my reciever next game). That sounds kinda stupid don't it! I don't think people would watch it! (B...not my pick but would work) They could implement a program that would trigger at each segment of the track, and not just the finish line. I don't see a driver lifting at 60 or 330.
The problem with lowering the index is, that it hurts the little guy...and we need the little guy. We need to grow the sport, not run them off. Slower cars need room to dial under as well the fast guys! I love the sport and am preparing a SS/LA entry for myself. I can say that it will be my privilege to meet and compete with all of you drivers! Thank you, Wade P.S. WON'T BE AFFRAID TO THROW THE LONG BALL! Won't be fast enough to worry about it anyway

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I am new to this game, so I will ask this probably stupid question anyway. Can someone please explain the adding horsepower thing. How does that hurt you? Does it change your factor number, and you have to carry more weight to slow you down? Also if someone runs far enough under to get slapped with horsepower, does it affect anyone running that combo, or just that particular car? Are you then labeled everywhere you go? Hopefully someone can better explain this to the newbie. Thanks.

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Jeff, if you were to have, say, a '64 426 Max Wedge. 415 rated NHRA. If you run -1.40 under (9.900 or quicker in A/SA), a combination gets hit 3.25%, or 14 HP, so you're now at 429. You'd have to carry an extra 112 pounds. All 426/415 Max Wedge racers receive this penalty. And yes, it can change the classification of the vehicle. As an example, when the '93-97 GM F-bodies came out, they were rated at 275 and were in, I believe H/SA in 1995. They are now rated over 340 (I forget the actual number) and can run up to B and C/SA. Hope this helps.

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That does make more sense, so it's all about weight. I guess you would have to get creative in how you add that much to the car, since you can only have 100lbs. of ballast. Does 14HP really = 112lbs? That should be about 1/10th of a second too.

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It depends on the class. A/SA is an 8 lbs per cubic inch class, and 14x8= 112 lbs. AA/SA is 7.5 lbs/in and it goes down in half lb increments for the most part.

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Is there someplace you can see this information broken down by class?

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The rule book has the weight break for each class, and NHRA's website has links to excel files that show the horsepower factors for each combination.

Here is the link:
http://www.nhra.com/competition/classification.aspx

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So if my combo has a factor of 15.01, then I would have to add 15.01 pounds for every horsepower they assess?

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No, 15.01 is the factor that determines what class your car falls in. Say the rated horsepower was 250 and the shipping weight was 3753, this would give a factor of 15.01. O/SA is the natural class for car with factors of 15.00-15.99. This means that you could in N/SA, O/SA, or P/SA at their appropriate weight breaks. This car would have to weigh (15x250) + 170= 3920 lbs in O/SA. If the horsepower rating were changed to 255, the factor would be 3753 (shipping weight) divided by 255 (the new horsepower rating) which is 14.72. This would make it a natural N/SA car and it could run M/SA through O/SA at the appropriate weights.

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Any car that goes more than -1.40 under the Index, has to add 3.25% to the at-the-time HP rating. Max Wedge 426/415 = 415 x .0325 = 13.4875. All numbers are rounded up, so it's 14 HP, and your car is a now a 426/429.

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I think I am starting to see the light. So at 1.15 under raises eyebrows, and 1.40 is automatic horsepower? Is it a one time offense, and you suffer the consequences, or do you have to back it up like a national record?

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Jeff, check some of my previous posts about the -1.15. The rules may have been changed from what I wrote. It used to be you had to run -1.15 at two different events, or you plus another with your combination had to each go -1.15 at that, or any event, in either the first or second half of the season, to trigger a review. Data (from Final Qualifying sheets at National Events only) was only accumulated for each half. So if you went -1.20 at the Winter Nat'ls and -1.20 at the World Finals, you were safe. If you were to go -1.20 at the Winters, and someone else with your combo also ran -1.20 at the Winters (or if you at the Winters and another racer with your combo at the Gators), the combo was "flagged". Then all runs by that combo were evaluated, and if that combo averaged one second under, it received HP on a sliding scale. However, this year, a V/SA combo qualified #1, and ran more than -1.15 twice at Topeka. It was the only Nat'l he, or anyone else with that combo, competed, and he got HP. There was quite an uproar on here over a few combinations that received HP. Any run, at any time, at any NHRA event of more than -1.40 causes that combo to receive a 3.25% HP penalty effective the Monday following said event (or an Index adjustment for SS/AM, SS/AS, etc). The whole Horsepower System is explained online, but I believe the rules were changed since it was written, and apparently, there was not a publicly mentioned notice of any change(s). http://www.nhra.com/competition/automatichp.aspx