Combine sticks & automatics
 

Oh boy, here we go again. Opening that same can of worms again. But, let me try opening the can from the other end. Let's look at it from a different prospective.

Do we agree that with the fewer classes we have, the more exciting / fun / intertesting eliminations would be? Wouldn't this make stock elim. more of a performance orientated class and less of just a bracket race?

I'm not familar with every combination. Just my own. The '73-'80 Chevy 350 in stock elim. However, I believe there must be other situations that are similar.

HP factor with automatic 287
HP factor with stick 275

H/SA index 12.45
H/S index 12.30

Difference in index 0.15

Difference in weight 138 lbs.

Doesn't that kind of equal out? So why have them in different classes?

Not right to run sticks and automatics together in class?
Why not, we do it in the Eliminator?

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

You're talking about IHRA...right?

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

No, why would this be applicable only to IHRA?

What am I missing?

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

I'm all for it. However, first issue is the spread between indexes (auto to stick) need to be eliminated. In the example below, why should there be a .015 difference just on the index?
I know Rob Youngblood who races SS/J has a .200 difference to SS/JA. As an example, he races Don Little in SS/J vs SS/JA and the HP rating is the same between the SS/J 350 'Vette and the SS/JA 383 Challenger. Same HP, same class, same weight. If they both run a 10.00, the SS/JA car qualifies .200 higher on the ladder. Does that seem reasonable?
I can agree on different HP factors but if it was an issue, I'd say OK, let them all be equal; equal HP, equal weight and equal index.
And just like Booby said, less classes and more excitement. It would be good for the spectators as you would see some real battles being played for them.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Sounds Great!

Make all the indexes run off the stick ones. Who cares where you qualify. More headsup runs, woo hoo!

Sean

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Bobby,

You failed to mention a sanctioning body and I believe you race mostly or exclusively with IHRA.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Jeff,

First of all, forget spectators. Except for the US Natls. there really aren't any except our friends, family members and a few hard core individuals. If stock or super stock elim. could be considered a spectator sport to more than just a few hard core, we'd be watching that on ESPN2 instead of the same John Force ranting and raving interviews over and over.

I know it used to be believed that all else equal, a stick would outrun an automatic. But with all the advances in transmission and torque converter technowledgy, this my no longer be true.

My senario kind of proves this out. The stick has a 0.15 quicker index but the automatic has to carry 138 lbs. more. Doesn't that show both cars with the same potential?

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Let me start off by saying I run both auto's and sticks so I think I have a fair idea as to what both are capable of. You cannot combine sticks and autos in every case. It's just not feasable. We have two of the fastest SS/MA-NA cars in the country. We just ran within a .01 of the MA record this past weekend. However, I can guarantee that we cannot run with say Terry Johnsons 302 Ford and Terry's combo has more left in it. How about SS/L. I don't anyone can compete with Kip Martins Ford. Granted these are some of the best stick cars in the country, but they show what can be done with the sticks.
In Stock there is a little more balance as a whole so combining the two could possibly work for the most part.
In my opinion change the weight breaks from .5lb to .75 until you reach the 1.lb classes. I know a lot of people say 1.lb breaks but in the upper classes you'd be asking people to add or remove close to 400lbs to move one class and that may be asking too much. Whatever change is made if any, won't make a lot of difference unless something is done with AHFS. Even if you have more heads up runs some will treat it just like Comp to do what they can to save their combo. Again these are my opinions and maybe they are wrong. This coming from a guy building another stick car.

Rick Ryan

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

as long as sticks and autos get factored separately, they should combined. It will work itself out in the end.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

The one complaint I have is, an automatic can run radial tires worth twelve hundreths, stick cars can't. So if the horsepower and indexes are the same, the automatic has the advantage every time.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Stick cars can use radials. I know of at least four stick cars, albeit two in comp, that run radials with sticks. It's alot of tuning, but it can be done.

Sean

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

That would be awesome if they did. The hemi's are combined and there is no real difference. It would make having a stick a little more appealing, and make more cars for class. Instead of only one race a year where you have more than 3 cars in class.

And man would that help the old beaten up 295/327 combo in GT/AA
Stick=2650
Auto=2785

Andy Fogle

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Sean, we are talking stockers on a 9" tire and on a variety of tracks and conditions, I'd hate to try to run eliminations on any track leaving at 7000 RPM with a radial on my car! If someone could show me how, man, I'd be over a tenth under the record right now, cool!!

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

but do you really want to have to race Shaun Leblanc for class?

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

When I tune into "Pinks All Out" and see no spectators in the bleachers, I'll take that into consideration. There is NO reason high-flyin' Stock and Superstock cars shouldn't be a fan favorite. Other that the inability to understand all the rules and classes maybe...

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Mike,

I know of at least one BB car that runs a stick and the 9" radial and after he got the clutch right, the car is definitely faster. So it can be done.

Jerry

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

If this was to be done the powerglide car would have to be let have 3-speeds! ! example just look @ Div 3 Donnie Beeler & Tom Rambo... same car same engine SAME engine builder! Donnie is a atleast a .10 if not .15 quicker all the time. Ok got my Nitro Joe here Donnie ran a best 11.028 to Tom's 11.269 last year

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

HEY!
I KNOW!
clutchless manual trans's....

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

How about 1 pound weight breaks starting at 7.0 for AA and going up to 23.0 instead? :eek:

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

I run an identical combination to some other cars in my class, built by the same engine builder, that are .10-.15 quicker than me. And we run the same trans, too. So? Somebody's always faster than somebody else. Heck, I've seen some cars go faster with a different driver in the seat of the same car!

If Sticks have an advantage... great! I think it'd be great to see more stick cars out there, as well as more heads-up racing in general.

Aren't there already some Super Stock classes and FWD's that have them combined, and just give a weight break to one trans? Or as someone else said, combine them, let 'em eat, and they'll sort themselves out.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

I had plans of the same wt breaks. 1 pound breaks with stick and auto together heads up (7 tru 20 somthing) AND allowing 5 hp per wt.break difference for stick vs auto. Example......8 lb break auto car would recieve 40 lb break (8 x 5 hp) over the same class stick car. further down a 15 lb break car (15 x 5 HP) would recieve a 75 break over a same class car with a stick. Same thing through all of the wt. breaks. A 23 lb class break auto car would recieve 115 lb break over a same class car with a stick. Same deal for S/S cars. Maybe 5 HP would not be enough but it was a place to start until it could be fine tuned. Both stick and auto would have the SAME HP factors with this plan. Its a moot point as I dont think a sportsman association is in the cards. Even the mighty NHRA cannot draw a good car counts except for INDY and some Div. 1 races.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Hey Michael these guys race togather...& share parts back & forth...(as in tom has had more then 1 of Donnie's carbs on his car I know for a fact) so they can pretty much dial from 1 anothers cars...just the stick car is faster ;)

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

I would love to run my modified mustang with a stick! I just cannot handle the extra weight. They should get rid of the 5% weight break or make it 5% across the board. ( how about a weight break for an old body style compared to those cobalts!...that was for you S.G.) LOL.








ss/em 161
Quickrod 161

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

...and there you have it. Looks like a plan.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

The SS/AH cars are making it work.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

but do you really want to have to race Shaun Leblanc for class?

Oh course, I would love to run against him, but I would not put a stick in my car unless they combined the classes. The more cars in a class make it exciting, and I think draw people into a class. If NHRA would put them together next year. I would have a stick, I promise you.


Andy Fogle

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

Yes..execpt it's the Stick cars that get's the break
and the LS1 has a 25hp "break" for sticks right now..will the automatics get the break in the future then? Its probably the way it should be but AHFS has screwed all the numbers up!

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

now that would be a class final worth watching.

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

1) Lets put stick and autos together.
2) Lets lower the indexes .50
3) Lets set the trigger at ????
4) Lets combine more classes
5) The sponsors do not like too many classes
6) The spectators want to see more heads up runs


1) Dumb idea. If NHRA cannot control it's own AHFS, what makes you think that they will control the combining of sticks/autos. Some classes it might be feasible, but certainly not for others.

2) The only people that want to lower the indexes are the ones that are holding back to protect thier great under factored 1,000 ft lifting combo.

3) See #2. Personaly I would like to see the trigger eliminated, and let the big dogs run say for two years. If you want to protect your combo for two years, your going to get your *** beat alot, time to open her up.

4) There is nothing wrong with the current class setup. There is less cars due to many things economically. Combining classes would create more lopsided heads up runs and turn away more racers.

5) It does not matter how many classes there are. The sponsors have to post a certain amount. If a class is not contested due to no entries, the sponsor still has to pay it, guess where the money goes.

6) What spectators.

As for myself, I will continue to try and work on my stuff to extract the extra two tenths I need to be within five tenths of my competition. ( Bob Shaw's Caddy is not included in this formula)
Oe even better, I will purchase an old dragster chassis, put my motor in it and go Top Fuel. With the field sizes dwindling, I should be able to qualify #16. I will get paid money for qualifying, get time trials, park in nice places, get plenty of media coverage, and I can run it out the back door.

Oh, and as a side note, my favorite posts are the ones that follow when somebody hits the trigger. Others in the same class will start to bitch and whine, and start name calling about how they are being affected. I just love it. Seems that they are a bunch of cry babies that there little combo was affected by someone else. I remember when Dick Moreland and Clayton Wright set the record. They called me up prior to setting it and asked me what they shoud do because they wanted the record but did not want to hurt me. My response was go for it, it is a performance based category. For all of you out there that cry when someone hits your precious under rated car. HA HA HA, Yippie, I just Love it. Go work on your stuff I believe is what they say. And if any of you out there do not like what I post. Too Bad. See me at the track in person so I can personally tell you to get over it.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA Lets fix this, lets fix that

Re: Combine sticks & automatics
 

YEAH! What he said!! Amen!

JimR