Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Why not make aluminum heads legal in all SuperStock classes? I just think that this would be easier for all parties involved. This would be simplier for NHRA to tech, along with racers new heads to work with; instead of 30&40 year old stiff to deal with. You guys tell me (Yes or No)? :confused:

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Cost. Not everyone can afford to go to the aluminum heads. Those that would have the aluminum would be at a large advantage over those that didn't. There are a variety of technical factors that I really don't even feel like wasting the time to type out.

If you want to run aluminum heads though, switch to a GT class.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

I dont think cost comes into play in this senario when one is talking about $5000 to around $7000 S/S heads. Maybe someone like Dave Layer could shed some light on this? One.....the value of iron heads from collector whores have driven the cost of good cores to work with out of sight for older muscle cars IF you can find them. The labor to port, weld, or repair iron heads would off set any lower cost to start with. I know some are at a disadvantage because an alum head is not avaliable (NHRA legal replacement) compared to the Chevy, and Ford stuff. I know of some stocker guys who would "Kill" for an Alum. replacement head so they could keep up with the competition due to the fact that the AHFS has not done its job. Anyone else??

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

To be fair someone would then have to make an exact set of heads for every type of engine in competition.....who's going to do it and who's going to pay for it?

At this point it would only benefit Chevy's and Ford's as they have already gotten the HRA's to accept aftermarket heads, what about the Mopars, Ramblers, Olds, etc?

Just doesn't seem feasible.

JimR

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Nope, Terry; you said it a lot better than I was gonna... Thanks.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

I dont see why not. Hit it with some HP untill someone like Edelbrock has every brand covered (they probably already do). Finding cores is almost next to impossible and you need 3 sets to make one good set. It would definitly make repair easier and also would be cheaper to weld up the exaust/intake ports rather than epoxy in the intake (and hope it stays there) and brass in the exaust. Super stock heads are like your mothers 50 years old china...touch it the wrong way and its in 40 pieces...break it and its non fixable. But then again all the 'old school' super stock guys would never go for this even though it would modernise the class and make it way more affordable for yongsters to race in an "entry level" class. :rolleyes:

PS...isnt there a cast iron Dart head that is accepted as a replacement casting for SBC super stock already?

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Hell why we are at it lets give everyone a Holley 1150. You people are just flat stupid (***** clowns and Jackoffs apply in this case). Sorry the truth needs to be told sometimes. :D If you want all that kind of crap on you make believe STK or SS car run IHRA crate motor of some IHRA alphabet class.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Mopar Steve; if you run Super Stock, than you would know that the cost isn't that high; as. What did your last set of iron heads cost you? Here is and example; I paid 300.00 for a pair of cores, then 5500 to have them done, not including hardware. I'll leave the cost of hardware out,because iron or steel the cost is the same. The heads were killer, but after three seasons, a water leak developed on one of the exhaust ports. I talked to the Head porter, and he said he could fit it, sent the heads back; he calls me and says won't cost more than 2500 to fix and redo intake ports and touch them up. Send him the 2500.00, calls me back two weeks later an said that he made a mistake; that it is going to cost 4100.00. Get the heads back and find hair line cracks running from 4 of the intake valves to the exhaust valves. Call him and he says that happened when they put in the seats, but they where pressure checked and don't leak. Put the heads on the motor and go to a race, on first pass car runs like sh-t , in shut down area I get out and look to what happen; guess what is running out of the header. So you tell me where is there a cost savings in theiron head over the aluminum. The aluminum heads can be repaired at a much cheaper cost than the iron heads; therefore they should last longer and the overall cost is cheaper.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

X-TECH MAN take a look in the edelbrock makes aluminum heads for almost every make AMC,BUICK,MOPAR, etc. NHRA has already approved heads from edelbrock now, so approving the rest wouldn't be that hard.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Why not just call SS MODIFIED PRODUCTION and nhra only has to pump ! Oh I forgot we all ready did that.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Treessavoy. take a look at the edelbrock website and find me a combination that isn't covered. As for not making a head for every combo, look at what they did with the Big Block Chevy. They use one head to fit multiple combos by changing valve sizes and combustion chamber sizes. So your argument doesn't hold water.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Without looking .....1962/3 Max Wedge, 1964 Max Wedge so I'll just keep holding that water!

JimR

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

After spending over $4000 to repair one head for a SBC 255 hp motor, I vote YES

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Dont worry..the Ch.sb. will probably get it anyway...

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Someone needs to get Edelbrock to reproduce the Max Wedge heads and 383/440 heads ACCURATELY with the CORRECT valve size and C.C's in alum. (along with others) and get NHRA to approve them. Someone went out of their way to do the same for the 428 CJ Fords and 427 Ford FE Medium riser heads and NHRA deemed them legal replacements in STOCK and S/S in the past. The GM Alum head was made a legal replacement for STOCK and S/S even though the exhaust ports are wrong, the intake port is a cross between a square port and an oval port and they came with 11/32 stem valve guides which was a pain to make into 3/8 size. That material was hard as hell to cut or hone. I wont even mention the latest GM intake manifold for big blocks that was made a legal replacement with the plenum cut resembling the L88 intake (also known as the "Grumpy" modification.) So whats wrong with making it fair for the Mopar guys and the AMC, OLDS, BUICK, and Pontiac guys also? As far as you guys bitching about "rules changes" this has been going on for a LONG TIME for the Fords and GM big blocks.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Terry the GM heads have a gm part # I dont know about the fords, if the fords dont then you mite have a case. Also the next question will be can he sell Max heads, or is the market big enough. NSS can run any head so that cuts into that count. I will email and see what kind of response I get.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Is NITROS next??
Come on keep it simple
I know it isnt simple anymore but lets keep it as simple as it can be
This idea isnt a good thig for SS...

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

What can be more simple than allowing Edelbrock aluminum replacement heads for all SS cars.

If that were proposed/allowed by n/ihra I am sure Edelbrock would be more than happy to produce the few cylinder heads that are not produced at the present time.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

The Ford Edelbrock heads do not have a factory part number. So what if the GM head does have a number......It is NOTHING like the original Chev. alum heads except for the fact it bolts onto a chevy block. I dont really care if they allow alum replacement heads or not myself but it isnt fair to the other brands and family of engines. The thread was started by someone else and its a proven fact that the alum heads are less expensive to modify, and repair when needed. The guys who complain about the alum heads are mostly those who have a stock pile of OEM cast iron heads for Hi Performance engine combos bought back when they were dirt cheap and are keeping them for themself or selling them off for a rip off price. I was just stating "Food for Thought" as it makes no difference to me one way or the other. Most of the original stuff is 40 + years old and the "Well" went dry a long time ago.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Mark Callanan, let's not get dumb.Nobody is saying get away from the basic combination. I don't know if you own a SuperStocker, but with us being able to port and polish intake,exhaust ports, along with the combustion chambers what is the difference than the material the head is made from? Like I said before, sink close to 7500.00 into a good set of iron heads and see what it cost to fix it if one or both get hurt as compared to aluminum. I didn't say change carb,compression or any of the original combo. The aluminum heads usually come with the mods that we pay so much to the Head guys to perform.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Yeah thats it keep making things better ...
So what do you want next?
How do you want to water down stock / ss racing?
Give us a few ideas???
And as sad as this is 7500 isnt anything for parts for a class engine...( or most parts for one)
It is called step up or find anouther class to race

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

I agree with allowing aftermarket replacement heads on any Superstock. Heck, probably Stock as well. Reason being is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's what grandpa used to say.
If your argument is "you knew what was in the rulebook when you started racing SS" well, no.
At one time you could look through the blueprint or casting numbers and determine if you should or should not build a particular engine. Maybe you found an advantageous set of heads. You build your car. A few years go by and now your competitors, the ones who may have had inferior heads from the factory, now have a "one size fits all" and all of the sudden that lowly go to the grocery store engine is a killer. So why does one segment deserve these wonderful choices and not the other? Who wants to shut the door on the rest of us? That would be those that want to preserve their own advantages (recent advantages I should point out) to retain an un-level playing field or as X-Tech stated, want a corner on a market.
So I'm not even arguing price. High prices are a given in SS (and Stock higher classes). I'm arguing equal opportunity for all. Edelbrock makes heads for almost every brand out there, even the lowly AMC. You can even find aluminum heads for Cadillac.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

thank you, would be nice for the b-body mopar if no hp adjustment and it made a difference, can always use a little help chasing a 396!!!

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Allowing aluminum heads, across the board, would seem to put all of those cast iron head combos at a disadvantage instantly. As previously stated, the aluminum heads will come with many benefits the cast iron heads do not have initially. I do not have a SS, but hope to graduate from Stock eventually. Running and older car, I would not want to see my efforts in developing a combo from '1968 available pieces', next to the same car with new parts.....it would certainly make entry into the class easier, but seems to further distance from anything left in the 'stock' part of the class. Their are plenty of newer alum head class combos, so I would say don't water down the old iron just yet. Just my 2 cents....so, I probably owe ya'll a dollar.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Casper 68, that is what I have been saying. If you are planning on making the move in the future from Stock to SuperStock, you are going to have to pay alot of money to upgrade the heads you have now to be competitive. Saying that do you want to take the chance that those heads will not leak,crack or fall apart shortly after you have bolted them on. Or would you rather start with a new fresh set of heads. I have a 69 engine combo, so any heads that I use have to be produced before 70; and when you start welding , grinding and doing what they do on 30 plus year old stuff, you don't know what you will end up with.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Mark Callanan, did you not read the original post; I said SuperStock, not Stock. I can tell you don't own a SuperStocker or you would know what I am talking about. If the manufacturers still produced these heads I wouldn't have a problem, but they don't. If you have and older combo the head supplies are getting limited along with the quality, and if NHRA doesn't address this issue soon than there won't be any older motor combos out there any more. So as you put it stepping up isn't the problem. Mopar is the only one that has stepped up by producing new old stock for the Hemi.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Definately no to the aluminum head suggestion. I don't where you get the cheap to repair thing. I had to get all my seats replaced with a better material for the seats were being beat into the aluminum. Ernie

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Bob,

Mopars answer to this problem should be putting a part no. on Indy heads and then you'll hear the Chevy boy cry foul!

JimR

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Good question! :):):)

As I understand it, and it was true in our case, that the aluminum heads are only considered as a replacement when the heads are extremely rare and almost unattainable. To purchase a set of Pontiac hypo heads, for example, your looking at $3k-$4k for castings that more than likely have been welded or leak, if you can find them at all. I bought 3 sets before I could even start porting and it took 4 years to find them!!! The "don't go chrome it" car collector guys are all over that stuff making it very difficult to run your favorite combo. :(

I cant think of any logical reason to open it up to plentiful heads that you can still find readily attainable and affordable. :confused:

As a business owner I think NHRA should move this direction in certain cases on a strick individual basis. It took Lynn several years to get ours approved, but if you have a legitimate case and are persistent NHRA will listen.

As all these combos start getting older, I'd hate to see some of the older hypo cars disappear because the manufacturer is oob or unwilling to participate. Hats off to you guys that happen to have a manufacturer that willing to participate. Its way easier for NHRA to deal with an aftermarket company that's a potential sponsor. The big three are too busy trying to survive against all imports and the epa :(

Stacy McCarty
GTAA PONTIAC'S REVENGE

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Personally I don't see any problem with begining a blend of approved aluminum heads into the mix in SS as long as racers wishing to run their current iron headed combo's can run off their status quo index and HP factors. In other words if you want to run your 327-275 Chevy with iron heads- you can. If you elect to run the aluminum replacement head at a new HP factor that's fine as well.

What we don't want or need is being forced to build new heads to be competitive because of any rule change. This way everybody wins and the "have your cake and eat it too" theory is alive and well.

There are already plenty of classes where an aluminum head and a cast iron head combo already exist so in reality much of the system I speak of is already taking place. And, let's face it, sooner or later alumminum and cast iron replacement heads will have to be accepted for the very reasons Stacy pointed out in his thread.

I can certainly understand the reluctance of any racer not wishing to pour the cost to prep a set of competitive SS heads into a pair of 30 year old castings never knowing how long they will hold up.

Mike Keener

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Al,
My friend just completed a Max Wedge 64 Belvedere. This is a great example, according to my friend, Chrysler makes a replacement head to this combo already but they use aftermarket companies to cast them I understand. The original was a #518 casting and the legal replacement is a #518m. So you see some of the "participating manufacturers" are already in the aftermarket arena. This keeps this oldy but cool combo alive!!! We tease him sometimes and call him "Mr Supercede":D

We had an original set of 518 heads and they were good but not nearly as the revamped 518m. Bischoff made almost 800hp with that motor on the dyno last year. I think with some wideband tuning it'd go well over 800hp's. U should have heard this thing in the dyno it was WAY WICKED!!!!:):eek::) What a cool factory race engine two fours giant ports buncha compression.

I had some respectable super stock racers tell me the combo was dead!! Not true, I think this car will go 9.50's in SS/DA If i can get him to lay into it a little.

I agree with Mike and the huge point is... how do the dead manufacturers like Pontiac Buick Olds AMC dont get any of that without the aftermarket companies???:confused: Or any other combo that doesn't have a supercede or replacement that's hard to find or high dollar. Chrysler could stop making this 518m head, where would he be then??? What justification is there for others; I dont know somebody tell me. I also agree with Mike's point that the original combos need to be left alone for the guys already running them. The replacements need to come with horsepower if allowed especially if they're "better".

Stacy

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

After all of that work and money spent on the Max Wedge the new blown Mustangs will still out run him with a stock elim. (?) engine. Is that traditional S/S racing?

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

The "standard" seems to be 5 HP penalty to use an aftermarket type head. I surely wouldn't have a problem with that.

9.50's in SS/DA? I'm hoping to go 9.60's in SS/H w/ my old AMC heads....:D

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

I'd use that word "standard" careful when you say 5HP on aftermarket heads :mad:



Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford FairlaneNHRA-IHRA

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Well,
I think the power adder engines are a different thread dont you?.

The real point is the guy is out racing and mixin it up instead of home dead in the garage because its the combo he grew up with and loves it. It may not be the fastest combo but its rated 415hp!!! That's alot of hp's for an inline valve motor wt a 208 intake valve.:eek: Hat's off to bischoff for getn r done!!! :D PS the replacement head flowed way better bout 320cfm intakes at 600" see pics on lynn's photo gallery :p

Now only if we can get the car out west so his brother will put his foot in it!!!!!

stacy

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Stacey, let me get this straight, its OK for you to use aftermarket aluminum heads (and block) for your Pontiac, but not for everybody else.

Never mind the cost of the diminishing supply of castings as well as the internal corrosion making them prone to leaking, the work involved to be competitive ( $7500++) and the near impossibility of repair makes all our Super Stock heads more expensive than Modified/Comp stuff.

Personally, I believe that an across-the-board allowable aluminum head would reduce the longterm cost in Super Stock. I know that Edelbrock has been lobbying NHRA for a number of years for this and had offered to make whats missing.

Remember, there are still cc specs for both chambers and runners that would have to be adhered to.

For those doubters,this will not obsolete the iron heads already out ther, just advance the class.

FJ

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Al Kuehl, I agree with you about trying to keep the combos as close to stock as you can, but NHRA needs to be consistent with the replacement heads. The problem I have is that if they start mixing and matching iron and aluminum heads how do you start applying hp to the various combos and still be fair. But if the replacement heads are all made from the same material be it iron or aluminum that problem is eliminated. The thing is that most of the replacement heads that are being approved are aluminum, so why not continue to go in that direction.

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Gentlemen,
These are all good arguments, I think eventually everything will be aftermarket. Whether the factorys come up with it or not it will have to be that way or the old combos will die out. This will insure progression of our sport and also the popularity. Just like the GT cars being introduced to super stock. This kept the manufacturers interested and gave us a identity with the kids coming along. Mixed with the early engines is was a good strategy. :)

It also kept Super Stock from being called a nostalgia race all the time. Not that nostalgia races are bad but I dont think all of us want to be known as that. I think it has help keep us in the National events instead of NHRA pushing us to all points meets. IT SELLS! U cant beat indentification for car promotion. Half these kids are moving to import wizbangers we call them. What a shame!!:(

I saw a great matchup with James Caro with his new hemi powered modified GT Stratus against a 69 Cuda or Dart somewhere cant rmbr who but it was way cool!! The announcers could have really exploited that on the starting line but they didn't. New hemi n old hemi!!!!!:D

NHRA has made it clear to us that they dont like racers to have to spend exorbitant prices for heads just to run a favorite combination because of cost. They would rather us spend the money with there sponsors partners and traveling to enter races, my guess is. ;)

NHRA is very strick about gaining performance advantages although it does happen. For example Lynn spent almost 5 years trying to get the aluminum heads approve because of his super duty heads are so rare and expensive. NHRA refused us the aluminum on this motor combination because his combo was 102cc combustion chamber and the edlebrocks were 85cc. The official said they weren't gonna give us that much chamber to "play with". So he spend all that time and may have to switch combos which i know he cant afford with two boys in college and a blond wife.:mad::(

Your thoughts?
Stacy McCarty
GTAA

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

Get rid of the wife and let the boys work their way thru college ? Just kidding before anyone goes off. Lynn knows me pretty well. Besides getting rid of the wife would cost more than keeping her.....LOL. OH....you mean the alum. heads.........Why cant Edelbrock cast the heads with 102 and larger combustion chambers? I seems to me it would be an easy fix for a company casting so many different head combinations. They even started casting 409 heads so whats so hard about it for a company already doing this type of work? Then you could re sumit the request and they should get the stamp of approval. Tell Lynn I said hello.
Terry

Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 

The 441 castings (255 HP and 250 HP 2 barrel) are getting harder and harder to find for someone just starting and the price is getting higher. Unless someone already has a stock pile of these castings its not an easy find. They were only cast for one year and it proved to be one of the most popular combinations besides the 350/300 so they were pretty well used up.