64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

At the recent "fallnationals" in Ennis, Texas .. I seen a 1964 Hardtop running GT/EA ..

I seen him LIFT OFF the hood later and it had a single 4 barrel intake with a Edelbrock intake , it was a wedge style motor and to my eyes, it looked like a basic bracket setup ..?

I can't keep up on the rules on what is and what isn't like most can but, since when is a car like this allowed in super-stock ?

I think it was Jim Hale , but I can not confirm that, its just a guess on my part

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Any production V8 of same manufacturer is legal in GT. Probably a 440 or possibly a very light 383 combination.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

From Drag Race central Dallas SS Q- final
38 4406 GT/EA Jim Hale, Van Buren AR, '64 Plymouth 10.150 10.95 -0.800

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Yeah....and the NHRA guys bitch about IHRA classes. Look at the mess NHRA made of S/S. It sounds like a 383 in a light wt. alum front end S/S Hemi Plymouth. The S/S race Hemi packeage had a lift off hood. The Max wedge packages had bolt on hoods.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

X-Tech nab, I hate to say your wrong, BUT, 64 Ply & Dodge Hemi cars had hinged hoods, with very lite springs ! Two guys from my home had HEMI cars in 64, 1 had the alum package, in a Savoy, the other had the HEMI in a 64 Belvedere 2 Dr Htp which was a Steel car, except for the Scoop Which was Alum !! There was only 13 HEMI cars built with the Steel Package in the only available body which was a BELVEDERE 2 Dr HTP ! Dodge also built the STEEL version using the 440 2 Dr HTp, and the HEMI ,also with the Alum scoop ! Dodge also built approx 13 Steel cars, the rest of the HEMI cars had the THE ALUM package ........! Later,,,,,,,, John

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Although the rule book says any production V8 of the same make, year optional, there is another unwritten rule. If the car you run in GT has a functional hoodscoop your engine combo has to have come from a fresh air combo. At least that is what Bruce Bachelder has told me. For the Mopar, anything from 340 up was available with a shaker in 70 and the Chally Drag Pac engines will work.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I will have to argue that point. I grew up next to a neighbor (Dan "SMOKER" Smith) and I was 17 years old at the time (1964) so I was really into cars at that time. His Original 1964 Alum 2 door Hemi Savoy had wing nuts on all 4 corners of the hood from the factory to hold the hood on. No hood hinges were present. Same deal on the 1964 Hemi Alum 2 door sedan 330 Dodges (Color Me Gone, Ramchargers, etc.) Some had Alum dash boards and some didnt. Some had Alum doors and some didnt. After all the time has gone by I believe most made the hood eaiser to handle by themselves by making the hood attached by hinges. No argument on the steel Hemi cars although the number built is 12. ALL of the steel cars were built on June 8, 1964 AFTER the lite wt. package cars were built and these were built to satisfy NASCAR requirements at that time. ALL of the lite wt. sedans were built in May 18, 21, and 22 of 1964. That is well documented. The 1964 Max wedge Alum cars had lite wt. springs no matter which body style the Alum was mounted on though most were 2 door sedans. All of the early Mopar stuff was not written is stone. Note proof of what I say is a picture of a 64 Dodge Hemi 330 sedan on page 52 of "MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE" Mopar Super Stock Drag Racing 1962-1969 written by Jim Schild. On page 53 there is mention in the text about the light wt. body package on the Plymouth (code 311) and the Dodge (code 611) using four threaded and plated hood pins being used with large plated wing nuts. Dont forget that a lot of Max Wedge racers converted their cars to Hemi power later in the year (Bud Fauble, Tommy Grove) so these could have had hinged hoods. Some continued to run the original Max Wedge hood scoop instead of the Hemi scoop at that time. As far as A/FX cars their were only 4 produced from original S/S cars (2 Dodges & 2 Plymouths). These were called 2% cars. Dave Strickler "Dodge Boys", RamChargers, Tommy Groves Melrose Missle, and Al Eckstrand's "Law Man". Tom Groves car was originaly a wedge car. They also show a 64 Dodge 330 Hemi car on page 55 of this book as a restoration (not a perfect restoration as in no Magniesum front wheels. All of the Lite wt. package Hemi cars were so equip from the factory with these wheels) showing hood hinges and NO lite wt. springs attached. It was 45 + years ago when these cars hit the strips so who is to say what is correct or not? Later back at you. Terry

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Terry, that's just too much detail and reference laden not to be factual!!

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

P.S. one more note. In every picture of S/S run offs at the Indy nationals of 1964 the Hemi cars are shown WITHOUT the Magniesum front wheels and running steel replacement wheels so should we assume that NHRA said NO to the lite wt. front wheels in S/S and only allowed them in FX? It could be the same story on the hood hinges on 1964 cars as the 1965 cars later came with bolt on hoods and without mag wheels. Are there any 65 + year old Hemi racers still out there who could shed more info about this?

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

All four of the '64 AFX cars "2%" cars started as max wedge cars. In early photos they even had the double hump hood scoops. All of the available 426 Hemis were in Daytona going in circles....:rolleyes:

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

X-TECH-MAN,,,,,, All I can tell you is the way these cars came from the dealer, which is the way I stated, Period. No arguing meant or intended ,just as I saw then ! I went with both Gentlemen to pick up these cars, the Belv steel car, he drove home , and I followed ! The Alum car he borowed a single axle trailer to get it home ! The steel car price was around $3645.00 ,don't remember what the Alum car cost ! The gentelman that purchased the steel Belv, passed away about 5years ago, and his grandson got the car. The Alum car got sold in around 70 or 71, don't know where it went ! When my friend passed and gave the car to the grandson, it was like it came off the truck, except for the wheels ! He kept the steel wheels !. Now much Later,,,,,,,,, John

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I have a picture of Bud Faubles "HONKER" after it set the NHRA record at Cecile County in early 1964. It is a 440 bench seat 2 door hardtop with the alum front end (X Max Wedge car). It still has the Max Wedge hood scoop but the grill was changed to the single head light grill with the 426 Hemi under the hood. Never assembly line produced but pass NHRA tear down anyway so anything was possable.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

WOW !!!

Looks like a swatted a hornets nest ?

I am not the sharpest pencil in the box but, two things I "think" I seen ..

The hood to me appeared to be glass and the heads appeared t o be alum (seen what looked like alum poking thru the paint ..but, I'm not positive so do say I said for sure on either of those..

Here it is

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._1201950_n.jpg

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I dont doubt you one bit. "Smoker Smiths" Plymouth and the "Color me Gone" Dodge both had 4 threaded hold downs to keep the hood in place. I didnt go with Smoker to pick up his car but I saw it the very next day in his garage. It was delivered to Richard & Davis Plymouth dealership in Washington D.C. I was in "AWE" at the Hemi engine.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Fiber Glass was never accepted as a legal replacement for the Alum front end components in NHRA. IHRA does allow it due to cost and avaliablity. That is a " 2 door hard top" so the hood would HAVE to be hinged and was most likley a Max Wedge car when new unless its a put together car "born: with a different engine.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Hood was not hinged, it lifted off .. That I'm 100% positive about
There was no departure line tween scoop and hood

"one piece" ..I did not place my hands on it but, my old eyes told me
Thats glass

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I might step on some toes here but it could be the "East Coast" and "West Coast" rule book deal.....LOL. If its a clone (or real) of a steel Hemi car then the front fenders and hood must be STEEL and have a hinged hood with an alum. scoop. If its a MAX Wedge body (clone or real) it should have a hinged alum hood, scoop and fenders. Max Wedge STEEL cars never had a hood scoop. The only lift off hoods in 1964 were the 330 2 door sedans and 2 door sedan Savoys but Im not saying all of the 2 door Hemi sedans had lift off hoods. As John Lang said some most likly came (Late Build date) with hinged hoods. One more car......several years ago Dave Wren and Mopar somehow got a 2 door hardtop Belvedere with an Alum front end legal and in the class guide using a race Hemi to drop into a lower class and it was runner up at Indy a long time ago. If this is the combo in question then the hood should still be hinged. Mother MOPAR made some wierd stuff when it suited them or NHRA rules dictated it. Maybe Carrol Shelby wrote a letter.....LOL. and the games continue.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Its Alum. no way Wesley would let that fly with fiberglass in Div 4 . A good body man can close the gap along the sides, you cant trust the old rivets, thats why there are more hoods without scoops.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I didn't want to get to nosey , I know how some people are offended by that around these cars .

And I have a 64 and have been around these cars my entire life , I know what I seen .

I've owned alum body panels in my life , if that was an alum hood and scoop , I'd be suprised but , again I did not touch the car or the parts

So, its possible I suppose ..

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Dave Wren's car was a steel nose Hardtop built for SS/DA in 1969. I spoke with Dave Koffel (who built the car for Wren) in detail about this car. Wren broke in the finals and Ron Mancini was given the Runner Up finish at the Nationals that year with his SS/DA steel nose Hemi '64 Dodge.

For what it's worth, I own the Mancini Dodge. I have researched the 4 steel nose Hemi's that were built for SS/CA and SS/DA in 1969 and can confirm the above as fact.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Thanks for helping out with that info....I wasnt sure if Daves car was a steel car or an alum piece. Its been a long time ago but I now remember his car being a Red Fury or Sport Fury????? instead of a Belvedere. Is this correct? I remember him breaking a drive shaft in the final There are some alum nosed Hemi Belvederes out there running today as listed in the NHRA Guide but I dont believe they were factory assembly line built???. Can you give us any input about the hood pin debate for the 64 2 door sedan lite wts?

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I believe it was a Fury. I'm currently away from all of my documents and etc., but will be able to help tomorrow evening when I have that all at my access again. From what I can recall though, I think they were hinged.

There were assembly line built Hemi hardtops. What sheet metal they had, I cannot recall.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Looks a lot like Chuck Rayburn's car.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Again, not sure but ..Several years ago I'm fairly certain this is the same car , it was at a Swap meet here in DFW .

The fab work looks like Joe Smiths handiwork to me , and I figured that is was Mr Jim Hale cause the engine compartment was red

And I know Joe does most of the work for him or at least did ..

I sure wish I knew the rules on what fits and what doesn't etc because I must of slept thru the class that said it was ok to run Alum heads, etc. etc and all the other things that seemed to me a novice ol bracket racer
Out of place ..

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Bob Pagano, Wesley doesn`t go to National events, Jim Hale ran SS/BA at Bell Rose points meet Sept. 19, Listed 68 Barracuda but 68 doesn't fit in SS/BA, I think this car had a hemi in it when Jim got the car and he put his 383 or 440 out of his 68 Barracuda in the 64 car, he was running in GT/EA, Just guessing ? Tom

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I have many pictures of Hayden Proffit, Color Me Gone, Dan "Smoker" Smith, etc., and wished I could scan them on here but I dont have a scanner. They all show 4 hood pins sticking up thru the hoods, were 2 door sedans and have S/SA on the windshields in shoe polish. Some show them in the pits with the hood on the roof. Its possable that some came this way and some didnt. Maybe NHRA made a rule change back in 1964? Who knows and its not a big deal. Just all I have shows them with hood pins. Thanks again.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

So the upshot of all this is that these cars never came with fiberglass hoods from Chrysler???

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

I just asked NHRA tech this week at Dinwiddie about fresh air in GT classes. I was told the engine going in the car had to have fresh air as original/optional equipment to run it in GT with a fresh air hood. This sounds Ok but what about a car that had a fresh air hood as original equipment with another engine? I was given the answer "it's a gray area, I'll look into it", fair enough. I don't know how you can configure a car body/hood for fresh air that didn't have it as original equipment, way out example: L88 in a Cobalt. I could see a fresh air body/hood with a different engine, wayout example#2: '68 Hemi 'Cuda body with a 273. Might be that the original engine & body BOTH had to have fresh air to be legal in GT. I thought this came up before on the forum but I couldn't find a link to it, can anybody help out?

Thanks,
Dave Outten

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

For what it's worth:

It's the ex-Chuck Rayburn, ex-Jim Hale '64 Hemi car. Jim ran it for a few years in the early part of the decade and then Chuck acquired it and ran it for some time. Recently, Chuck and Jim swapped cars with Chuck receiving a '68 Cuda for SS/AH competition.

I believe in GT/EA that it's a 383 combo which, if it's the 300 Hp combo, would only need to weigh 3170 for that class.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Dave
The rulebook does not allow the addition of scoops on a GT car. The GT section 9B says "The requirements and specifications for GT classes are the same as those for Super Stock classes - Section 9A - with the following exceptions:" and there are no exceptions for hoodscoops in the GT section 9B. There is, however, a phrase in SS Section 9A "Hood openings and/or hood scoops other than original equipment prohibited.". It would appear that those two statements eliminate the ability to add fresh air to a non fresh air car. Nothing I see keeps someone from running the fresh air engine in a non fresh air car , just no fresh air.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

How does it work going the other way?? Like a 69 Vette body W/L-88 fresh air hood and a '66 327 engine that was not equipped with fresh air... would that be allowed in GT classes? It seems to me like the precedent is already set. It has already been done/allowed with the 69 Camaro running cowl induction hoods with non fresh air engine combos in Stock, SS and SS/GT. Is a Mopar and Fomoco "forward facing scoop" really a different application than some of the cowl or rear facing fresh air systems from other MFG's? It's all about cool clean air, no matter how you get it.
The way I read the rule book using a fresh air body with a non fresh air engine should be allowed.
Because:
1. When you pick a body for the GT class It says nothing in the rules about limiting the bodies to non fresh air applications.
2. When you pick an engine. It clearly says under engine:1 V-8 only; must be same make as body.Year optional. Engine must be listed in both the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide and NHRA Blueprint Bulletins. Again it says nothing about limiting it to non Fresh Air engines

GT classes Mix combinations of bodies and engines. If it is allowed one way, it should be allowed going the other way. .

I really don't see that there is a problem with any "Body Package" that was produced by a MFG running any "Engine Combination" that was produced by the same MFG. as long as they are listed in the applicable NHRA guides.
Maybe we should go back as far as the inception of the GT Classes to see the "intent". Which I thought was to allow the mixing of SS engine combos and body combinations that weren't available with each other. Our resident GT historian Don Kennedy might be able to shine a little more light on the reason for GT Classes.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Stewart, I do understand no scoops are allowed to be added in GT, I was just trying to illustrate/exaggerate the fresh air engine concept in a non-fresh air body for the sake of this conversation.

Adger, I agree with your view 100%, that is exactly the way I read the rulebook. In fact the '69 Corvette L88 hooded car was the example I used in Dinwiddie this weekend at tech. I hadn't seen a '69 Camaro with a cowl hood yet in GT but that is an identical situation that I'm trying to clarify, I appreciate you pointing that out.

Thanks guys,
Dave

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

How would you run a 68 cutlass w/fresh air to a cowl induction 396 in GT class. Ron

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

So, if the car is a 383 combo to fit gt/ea

And no 383 cars had factory scoops, how is it that he can run that , not to mention all the other items

Like alum heads, etc, etc. ?

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

[QUOTE=BIGDAD;145476]

And no 383 cars had factory scoops, how is it that he can run that ,

QUOTE]

I`m pretty sure that the 383 was available with the "Air Grabber "scoop on 70-71 Road Runners, and maybe a Shaker on 70-71 Cudas, no?

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

nope !

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

BigDad,
I think what is being missed with this discussion on the GT cars is there are two issues that make it a GT class.
1. body/trim/acessories package to the body style chosen
2. engine/drive line combination
They don't have to match (come from the MFG as one package) or compliment one another as in traditional Super Stock
A.He has chosen a car combination that came with a hoodscooped Hemi.
B.He then chose a 383 engine/power train combination (the 383 combo could have also had a shaker hood scoop)
A+B = GT/EA

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

The car its self is a Hemi car (it could also be a Max Wedge body with the dropped center on the scoop and be legal) with alum front end that came with a straight across the top hood scoop so the hood scoop is legal for GT/EA (Alum hood....not fiberglass in NHRA.....fiberglass in IHRA ONLY). If the engine installed was avaliable with fresh air it is allowed to use the existing scoop. I havent heard a straight answer about what if the engine was not a cold air version. Some say OK some say NO????????
As far as the engine goes I do not know of any 383/440 legal to use alum heads. Still waiting for all the Hemi experts out there to tell me whats the deal on the 1964 hood pins. Henged or pined or both????

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Want to stir up more "POOP" ? Which wheelbase is legal? The Hemi cars came with a 1 inch shorter wheelbase than the Max wedge or 383 cars.

Re: 64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis
 

Terry,
Bringing up wheel base....that's not fair. Stir, stir.. LOL! There is only one legal wheel base. You know, the wheelbase has to do with the original car/combo chosen.
Just ask me all about wheelbase. I've earned the right to be an expert.
I guess you could split the one inch difference (between Hemi and Max wedge) and it would still make the 3/4" rule and be legal.