How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

When they get there NHRA gift of 14HP on monday they will have to carry 112lbs more so they will only be about 3 to 4 tenths quicker than the best none C.J. car out there. These cars shouldn't be in stock they should be in super stock, you don't see any 68 darts or barracudas with race hemis running stock and thats because they weren't street legal cars just like these new factory race cars are, Wake-Up NHRA!!

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Ruler,

I think the problem lies not with the street-legality of these cars, nor with the fact that they are (GASP!) supercharged, nor even with their 4-valve cylinder heads.

They are a beautifully-engineered package that has a tremendous advantage over the rest of the field, not because of any of this mechanical supremacy, but because their unrealisticaly low horsepower factor.

I realize that most people are aware of that, but people complain about things like "NOT STREET LEGAL", which wouldn't mean a hill of beans if NHRA had given these 700+ HP motors the horsepower factor they deserved, to begin with.

If they were in Super Stock, with this same bogus HP factor, the same problem would still exist; just the venue would have moved. They'd still be way under their indexes, because they'd be in the wrong class..... AGAIN.

Moving them to Super Stock won't solve anything; it'll just put the problem in a different eliminator.

The HP factor is the problem.... but, AHFS will get it right, in about 2045...

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

The new Cobra Jets need their own class...say AAA/S or A/FX (Sugested by another post) You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class. That is why Robert Pond, for instance could never run two four barrel carbs EVEN THOUGH those cars came that way, so AA/S was created. I think they should not have weight added or horsepower, just let them race each other for class!! In Stock eliminator they would be like all the rest PUT A NUMBER ON THE WINDOW! Wouldn't that be simple and mainly FAIR to all the other stock racer that have worked their butts of to gain performance over many years. just my ..02 cents worth. Bob K.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

The problem IS that they're supercharged. Whether the air is -400 or + 3000 they'll run almost the same, the carb and FI cars won't. Qualifying and heads up runs will never be fair, Paul.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Keep in mind when the camaro and firebirds first came out were they not F,G and H cars, now b,c and d. It may take awhile but it is still good for our class. It may hurt now but an injection of some sort is better than sitting idle.

New blood stings when first injected but sooths other faults

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

I sort of like your thinking, but it is still a hard pill to swallow for some.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Bob Kirkbride said, "You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class"

Is an additonal 36 HP on top of the AHFS-earned 14 HP realistic?

Original factor of 425, plus 14 (AHFS, this coming Monday, is the scuttlebutt), plus an additional 36 to get them out of the twilight zone and into the real world, would provide a new factor of 475 horsepower, which probably isn't enough, but, bear with me....

What you say is true with the 7.5 lbs./hp. AA class we have now, but at 475 HP (factored) and a new, 7 lbs./hp. AAA/S class, they would only have to weigh 32 pounds more than what they'll have to weigh, anyway, this coming Monday morning ( assuming they get the 14 HP they allegedly earned.)

425 + 14 = 439 X 7.5 = 3,293 lbs., + 170 (driver) = 3,463 lbs., for current AA/S as of Monday, 11/2/'09

475 ("realistic" new factor) X 7 = 3,255 + 170 (driver) = 3,495 lbs., for the new AAA/S 7 lbs./HP class

Weight gain after Monday's AHFS added weight would be 3,495 minus 3,463; just 32 pounds.

I think that might work. Their "classmates" in this new 7-pound AAA/S class, might be some '64 Mopar Hemi sedans, a Thunderbolt, or two and possiby a supercharged LS-whatever, 500+ HP, Corvette ZR-1... and next year, the blown Camaro Z28's, with the 'vette motor??????
I've never liked the idea of separating the SS/AH '68 Hemi Mopars (is "segregating" a better word), and this might be a way of avoiding the same kind of anomaly as exists with those cars.

Just my 2-cents....

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Paul,

You are incorrect in what you say about forced induciton in regards to a Stocker. You would be correct if you could change the compression ratio or speed up the blower, but you can neither in a Stocker. On a cold (dense air day) more oxygen will always be ingested into the engine whether it is supercharged or not. A positive-displacement blower will only more "X" amount of air per revolution, so if you don't speed up the blower, you don't increase the air flow (to compensate) as you want to believe. On a hot day less oxygen makes it to the combustion chamber and we have to reduce the amount of fuel to maintain proper a/f ratio.

Evan

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Since Vegas is an altitude factored track, would the AHFS be in effect? I thought that the AHFS was only used at the non-altitude corrected tracks. But what do I know, I think that the AHFS rules change every week.

Ken Kopecky
1454 E/SA

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

The AHFS is in effect if you run 1.40 or more under the sea level index. In Rd.1 of A/SA class eliminations, Brent Hajek ran 9.867 which is 1.433 under the 11.30 sea level index. Consequently, the hardtop, automatic CJs will get 14 HP on Monday (3.25% x 425HP); this will restrict them to AA/SA because their new factor will be 7.38. The hardtop, stick CJs got 14 HP after the Richmond National due to a run by Don Fezell.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1
Bridgeport, Ct.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Will we be seeing more CONVERTIBLE Mustangs?

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

normally you would be right but they went 1.40 under the SEA LEVEL index

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Kenny, 1.40 under the sea level index at any track is automatic HP.

11.30 index
-1.40
9.90 or below

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

They won't have to carry 112 lbs. more because they will only be legal for AA/S and AA/SA with their new factor of 7.38. They will only have to add weight to get to the 7.50 AA/S and AA/SA factor. In A/S and A/SA their class minimum weight was 3400lbs (8 x 425); now their class minimum will be 3293lbs (7.5 x 439). As I see it, the main effect will be that they will have to run off of the much tougher 10.90 AA/S and AA/SA index instead of the 11.25 A/S or the 11.30 A/SA indexes.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1
Bridgeport, Ct.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

After taking a second look at the Classification guide, at 425 HP the CJ convertible has a factor of 7.82. When the 14 HP is added, their factor will be 7.57, so they will still be a "natural" AA car; therefore the convertibles will still be able to move down to A/S or A/SA.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1
Bridgeport, Ct.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

EVAN; Your comments on effect of altitude on a supercharged engines performance are correct, except that you forgot to mention the offsetting effect that helps to keep these cars faster at tracks such as Las Vegas. Since a blower takes HP to compress the ambient air, less dense air will lower the blower output pressure, but will also lower the Hp needed to compress it. The power needed to run a blower is significant, so the 'gain' from reduction in load is also significant.
Steve

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Steve,

Can I assume that you've measured the differences at different boost levels in order to report these findings? In theory you are right, but we are talking about small changes in boost level from good air to bad air. Probably 3-4 psi on the CJs from sea level to Vegas. The cost to drive the blower for that extra 3-4 psi is very, very small.

I've tested over 100 blower cars with all types of blowers over the years and while I've not measured crank hp, save for one time on a 1,200 hp engine, I can tell you the loss in power from adding a few pounds of boost is not a lot. In that case it took upwards of 250 hp to run the blower. I would guess a change in boost, even at that level, would have very little effect on overall power loss/gain. Again, in theory you are right, but in practice the gain/loss is not what you think.

Most blower engines are designed to run with boost pressure so even if you removed the blower it wouldn't give you a fair result on power because the engine would likely be inefficient with no boost.

Evan

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

I was just wondering if anyone else noted the increments on Don Fezell's CJ in Richmond. To compare go to http://www.nhra.com/livetiming/livetiming.aspx and click on Race Archives. Find Virginia NHRA Nationals and click results. Compare Friday's Q1 increments to Sunday's R2 increments. They are pretty amazing!

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

robert pond can run the 2-4 setup!!


Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

The guys complaining about horsepower numbers must be GM guys.Take a 375hp,396,same specs as a 425hp,396,soooooo.Think of the many hp factors for basically the same 350 chevy engine.NHRA has always facrored according to who makes the most noise and who is their biggest sponsor at that time! JMO,got out of "stock" in the 70's when it was getting stupid! ROY.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Wow, that looks like his R2 run would have been in the high 9.50s.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Andrew,
I was figuring atleast that maybe quicker because he may have been lifting before 1000 ft.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

And the Mustangs started in A and AA, so, other than not being able to run A after about Tuesday, where do they go from here?

Since it had already happened before, there was no excuse for it to happen again. Constant repetition of "it happened X years ago with Y cars" doesn't make it right for it to happen again with a different car or cars. What it does is either make NHRA look like fools for letting it happen again, or make us look like fools for letting NHRA do it to us again.

I don't see any "other faults" that bogus race cars with under factored engines capable of running 2 seconds under their indexes are "soothing". They sure as Hell won't inspire NHRA to do anything with the AHFS, and in fact, it'll probably be just the opposite. They won't inspire anyone to build anything to race, either, except a few who have plenty of money and can afford to either buy these new "factory race cars" or build copies.

Honestly, I can't see where this is so "good" for Stock or Super Stock. Did the entire class get anything out of it? No. We didn't get sudden national exposure in print, nor an increase in television time, either. There hasn't been any real increase in the purse or contingencies (for the most part, entry fees went up, and as a general rule, contingency payouts went down, while the purse remained the same as it has for years). We aren't treated any better by NHRA, either. I keep looking for all of this improvement these new cars are supposed to be bringing. It ain't happening.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

That they will still be able to run at least 1.5 to 2.0 seconds under.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

The 396/375 and the 396/425 were virtually identical, and remained the same for the 396/375 for 4 years after. The 425 rating was a marketing ploy.

If you flow the heads and intakes for those "basically the same" 350 engines, you'll find they are actually a bit different.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Guys many of you are missing the Point of the Mustangs. It got a factory to be interested in Drag racing again. NHRA wins. It got several more entries to events by guys seeing the bogus HP and jumping into them. NHRA wins. Everyone else keeps bringing their cars and racing NHRA wins. Many people talk about the injustice but are powerless to change it. NHRA at least breaks even....This is not about Fairness, it is not about racing, it is not about good factoring or intelligent thought related to the cars.... it is all about NHRA making money... Correctly done or poorly done... they continue to use the same thinking to do it..Our choices are continue to go and pay them entry, continue to complain of the unfairness and just race or..... Sad it kills the hobby many of us lived for...

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

The last of the cj's is gone. Ran dead on with a 0 and still lost.
I guess all that extra horsepower didn't help.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

I seems to help them win class....

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

I love the old chevy,mopar and ford cars just like you guys do,but a lot of members are tired of trying to find and race a 40 year old stocker.I think the new cobra jets in the end will be great for nhra drag racing.Just my .02 cents!

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Sorry David, I don't think that argument has any real merit. If you take the time to look, for example, you can find an A, B, F, or X body Chevy, say from 66-70, for $10K. For the rest, if you have to pay for everything if you shop, you should be able to get it done for under $50K more. For a total of $60 to $65K, again, if you just carry it to a shop and say "make this a Stock Eliminator car", then go buy an engine and transmission.

A new Cobra Jet is, or was $75K. And that does not include a real racing transmission, or the pieces that go with it.

Of course, I suppose the new cars might drive down the price of an older used AA, A, or B car if the owner got fed up with the whole thing. And I really don't think that is good for the class, either.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

I think if they were doing it with actual showroom available models it would be great for the class. Is any one out there building a showroom mustang?

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

No thanks,I have already been down that road years ago with Woodro Josey.No more rust buckets for me.LOL

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Not everyone wants to race an antique.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

It would be so simple if they would just put one on a chassis dyno. Getting one that had not been de-tuned for more favorable lower numbers might be a problem. Even if they used that rwhp number instead of flywheel hp it would be closer to correct.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

It works for NASCAR.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Not everyone likes this late model junk either.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

That was not the issue. The issue was cost to buy or build.

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

Alan -- I'm not so sure I agree with you -- first of all you can't get very much '69 Camaro for ten grand and by the time you buy everything else you're in it big .Secondly, I'd be willing to bet that its possible to build a" CJ clone" for the same or less money than it costs to build a late model LS1 car .These cars are really a bargain if you start to figure all the other costs involved .As for driving the price of the older cars down - why ? Other than a few class races how have they been hurt ? They are still good cars in the eliminator - ( I haven't seen many for sale have you ?) - and as we're starting to see that the CJ's will make mistakes and get themselves some new horsepower compliments of the NHRA on Monday's .

There will always be the old and the new - and not everyone will be happy ................I've seen all of this before when I raced "Jr.Stockers" and again when I raced "Pure Stockers" and again with regular "Stockers" and still again when the "Fuel Injected Stockers" came out -- things have a way of sorting out in our sport -- they always have in the past ...............

PS-- As far as the CJ's being good for our sport -- when's the last time any other cars have had this much ink or attention -- ever ! ! ! I'm certainly not sticking up for them or taking sides -- like they used to say on "Dragnet" --- "Just the facts" ..............

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

In 1969 the COPO's were late model junk too!

Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas
 

I also thought I could build my AA/SA Corvette for around $50k. I stopped keeping track of the money once I hit $85K. When I had an opportunity to buy Cobra Jet #49 for $71,500.00, I actually thought it was a pretty decent buy. Yes- it does need another $8,500.00 to make it race ready (with an automatic) but someone could build the 2010 kit car that is currently offered by Ford for considerably less.

Just my observation.