Titles and Race Cars
 

How many of you race car owners have titles for your vehicles? Have you ever encountered any issues because you didn't have one?

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Personally I wouldn't buy one without a title or other document recognized as binding.
I once sold a race car rolling chassis. I lived in an apartment and the car was stored on the lot. Even though the buyer paid for it, he didn't pick it up for two weeks. He finally arrived, knocked on my door and said "where's my car"? I assumed it was where I saw it last. Nope...gone. I can tell you I didn't look to good and to make it worse, he was the owner of the local track I raced at (now Speedworld, AZ).
About 3 or 4 years later I was with my fiance and another couple driving around looking at Christmas lights. What do I see this Christmas eve in somebody's drive way? Yep, there it was. I called the owner up at 1:00 in the morning and told him where to find his stolen vehicle.
He arrived the next morning with the Sheriff. Apparently this guy purchased it from the thief under the assumption a title wasn't needed on a race car. Legal owner presented proof of legal ownership and the once rolling chassis with a new tunnel ram 440 was on his trailer. Yep, if your in possession of a stolen vehicle you loose whatever is on it.
It took me nearly 4 years to absolve myself on that and it was a miracle I found it. The only thing better would have been when he showed up at the track. Now that would have been really interesting!

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Jeff's point is well made. Also provides documentation for proof of origin when crossing an international border....the customs officers are inconsistent in asking for ownerships, but if you have nothing to prove that you were in possession of the vehicle upon entry to your neighbor's country, be prepared to have a prolonged stay with the border folks.

As I see it, it just makes life easier for everyone and helps to expedite a sale.

If a car never leaves your hands and you do not plan to compete in Canada or Mexico.....it probably doesn't matter.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

always get a title or a notorized bill of sale,its for your own good!!!!

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It is not just titles for race cars but titles for any car you buy. If you someday decide to fix up that old car you bought for parts, without the title in some states it can be hard to prove its yours or where it came from. And just because you get the piece of paper called a title, the car is not yours until the title is transferred into your name.

Car story...many years ago I bought a car for parts from a friend. Never got the title because he was a friend and I knew where to find him. Later I decided to fix and license the car. Thats when I found out my friend had committed suicide. His brother was the heir and I almost lost the finished car to the brother because he had possession of the title. Luckily the brother never got to see the finished car and still thought the car was just an old junker but I had to pay him a couple hundred to get the title. Since then, if I buy any car, I get the title and put the car in my name immediately.

Travis

(Disclaimer: Opinions and advice expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions and advice.)

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

terrance in 1970 i had a encounter not with NHRA but with the king co. sheriff department, seems we acquired a 70 camaro with out paying for it and the insurance co. wanted there money, when you are looking at 1 to 3 in the clink you really wish you had a TITLE

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

So what everyone is saying that every car racing in NHRA has a title? I'm not trying to be a smart @#$ here but if I had the coin to buy say an old Pro Stock car to run in comp it will have a title? I agree, it is nice to have something official no matter if it's a race car, passenger car, or trailer but I don't believe every race vehicle has one.
I do understand no one wants to spend their hard earned money for something that might not be legit that might be more of a hassel than it's worth.

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The New challeger drag paks dont come with a title....

No vin even....

A copy of the bill of sale from the dealer (a tear carbonless copy) is all you get....

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Terrance, I think it is more uncommon for a Stocker or Super Stocker not to have a title than many here want to admit, however, I would NOT want to buy a car, any car, without a proper title. Florida law states "Any vehicle traveling over Florida roads or highways must have a proper title and proof of insurance". I have only been asked for the proof of title for a race car once in 40 years of traveling over the highways in any state, and it was in Florida. I was told the insurance thing was not a problem since the car didn't actually "drive" on the road. The title was another thing. Most if not all Comp or Pro cars have VIN numbers placed on them by the builder and the buyer gets a "competition automobile bill of sale". These have pretty much been excepted by law enforcement from what I have heard. Back many years ago I drove a race car provided to us by Cadillac and GM. It had no VIN because it was a "pilot vehicle". In other words, officially it basically was a parts car. We had a well documented letter from GM stating the car was given to us for racing purposes only. The letter was very official and had phone numbers and addresses for verification. There are ways to get "junk" titles or "hot rod" titles here in Florida and in Georgia. Worth looking into. All cars really need a title. Jim

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I have a friend up here in Canada who frequently races in the US and he got held up at the US side of the border for this issue. He has the title for his car so he was OK. I'm thinking it's a good idea, especially for anyone who crosses the border to race.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Would you buy a house with no deed? The bottom line is, if you paid for it you need the highest level of document available! If you intend to spend your money on upgrades, make sure it's completely yours. If that car ever had a title, you want it to be in your possession when you open your wallet. If it was a professionally built race car (dragster,pro stock, panel car, body in white, etc) the bill of sale with ID number would be the highest level of document. I had a buddy call me about a Corvette he had found. He knew that I wanted one for my next build. It can be seen here on CR under my photos. I was a little nervous about a Corvette (chop shops, modifications, chassis swaps, documents etc.) and he had a title. I had him meet me at the State Motor Vehicle Admin., and when the car was cleared (theft) and the title was placed in my name I paid the man in cash and recieved a receipt from him. I still was a little nervous untill I pulled the body off the frame, and located the ID number stamped in the frame where it was supposed to be and matched my title to the letter! Then I started to spend my time and more money! Whoever has the title can and will come and get your car with your upgrades! Make it a clean deal, then go and enjoy yourself. Don't worry if the other guy has a title or not, make sure your stuff is right! Wade

http://i46.tinypic.com/25tf4ud.jpg

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Just having a notorized "Bill of Sale" is not enough (although better than nothing) if someone else shows up with a legit title. That will superseed your notorized "bill of sale".
And just because a stocker or super stocker doesn't have a serial number doesn't mean the hidden numbers can't be found to determine true identity,

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Last summer during a traffic stop a friend was asked for a title to a S/G car by the Texas Highway Patrol. It is a tube frame car so there was no state title.
He had a bill of sale he carried all the time and that was good enough for them.
I guess it is a good idea to carry some sort of documentation. After his issue I now carry the same thing for mine in the trailer.
My 2 Cents

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

All points are well taken, and I fully understand guys, and if I had a serious buyer I would pursue a title because I know the origin of the car (from when it was built as a race car). Anything is possible these days so I appreciate the input.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Thanks Jim, I really appreciate the way you put it.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Wade,

I wouldn't buy a house without a deed but think thats apples and oranges, we're talking cars. No I wouldn't buy a street car without a title either. A race car however, if I had a notorized bill of sale and there was no title ad it was a well known car then yes. In the case of my vehicle to my knowlegde it has had three owners in its life time as a race car, some of the members have seen this car from it's origin. There are certain racers who have worked on this race whom I will not name because it's not their issue. I think if this vehicle was not legit it would have been found out years ago as the car was heavy on the circuit back in the 80's. If you look at my photos you will see the name of the original owner and driver on the side of it.
There is one thing for certain that would sell it other than having a title and it's price. I'm offering a basic product tat nots perfect but for the money its a great deal I think. I bet if I offered the car as it sits for $5k it would be gone tommorrow, becuase americans are looking for that deal to take advantage of folks. I guess I will have to eat it, I'm not going to give it away.
Thanks for the response.

Terrance

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

I hope what I wrote will help you Smitty. I know personally that what you are asking for your car will be a great deal for someone! I have seen the car and seen it run. It is a very nice race car, even if it is a FORD! I hate to see you sell it. Jim

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

As long as you have a noterized bill of sale identifying the car you should be ok. I've gone to Mexico many times with all of mine, all being "body in white cars" & never had a problem

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Terrance
I had a customer show me a Mustang from Florida for sale, he wanted to bring it back to Canada, the seller seemed miffed that a title was important. It is important specifically to someone who is buying a car mainly over the internet. As well it is nice to have the document, makes putting it into his name with an Ontario ownership that much easier to go racing in the good old USA. Needless to say the response was enough to make the interested party back far away from what looked like a pretty good deal. It would make sense in todays world to have all the documentation in the world when you are selling a car. Understanding the frustration of trying to sell your "baby" why would you not want to open up to the Canadian market, specifically with the dollar so favourable to us right now?

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the factory Olds car have NO VIN! so none of them have a title! Do the East Taxas cars come with a title?

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Thanks Jim, it did help. I understand the legality but I also know some of us racers are hypocrits. I bet if I went on Racingjunk.com and slashed the price to $5k it would be gone by the end of the week. It will be ok, the right buyer will come one day and we will make it legit, I haven't misrepresented the car and have been straight forward with any who has asked. Anyways, congrats to you Jim on your win up at SGMP, can't wait to see that car run again.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Check your PM's Greg.

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i didnt have any problem getting my dp challenger into canada only because i had all paper work.i dont think it would have gone good with out it.they were more interested in if i had any guns.i have been crossing the border for years with no problems,but i take titles to truck,trailor and car.after reading these posts ill keep the paper work for the challenger in the trailor no matter where i go.thanks for the heads up.

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Them's hurtful words Jim.....

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

I was wondering the same thing. I bought my Olds from Tom Kasch. It was a factory race car, I believe never titled. I still have the bill of sale from Tom, so should I carry it with me? If I were to get stopped, will they ask to see it and will it be "good enough"?

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Mike,run it past your DMV and see if you can title it with the paperwork you have.If so,
end of problem.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

About 10 years ago, a -68 street Corvette on its way to be exported to Sweden was stopped by the US authorities in the harbour. They discovered that it was stolen from the first owner -71, 28 years before.
There had been serveral owners during the years, all acting in good faith, also the last seller.
Original owner got his car back (surprise!), and the Swede that was eagerly anticipating his new car got no refund from the seller, he got ...nothing...
So there's a good function of this system, even though the instrument is a bit blunt....

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

How do you title a vehicle without a VIN?

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

My car did not have a title when I got it. All I had was a bill of sale. I had a buddy who was a lawyer get a court ordered title. I then took all of the paperwork to the state highway patrol who searched the car to try and find some sort of vin or identification number. Since they could not find anything (I told them they were wasting their time) they signed off on the paperwork and sent me on my way. I had to go back about 3 weeks later for them to pop rivet on a vin # assigned by the state. Then I registered it with the DMV as an off road/race car and only pay minimal personal property taxes every year. No tags, licenses or anything.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

My Plymouth was 1 of the 4 chassis cars Herb McCandless did from a body in white in the early 80's. When I went to insure it (through Kincaid), he asked for a VIN, the car never had one, so I had to "create" one. The car has been Bill of sale only from day 1. I have the BOS from when I bought it, and from when the second owner bought it from the first.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

I know that in NY for sure,you bring the car with documentation.In the case of this car if it says the car was a factory racecar,delivered with no vin #,and the paperwork backs that up,the state will issue a vin #.You probably wont be able to register it though for pass. car use.But for legal ownership I think they might go for that.All Mike has to do is call DMV
main headquarters for a clarification.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Obviously every state is different, here in Ohio, its not to difficult to get a title for a race car assuming you have proper documentation, as in a body in white car or something strip only, I have a friend that got a title to a dragster here in Ohio...why because he could, and he was taking another car down for inspection. They dont inspect to see that you are "street legal" rather that you have MSO's (manufacturers stated origin docs or something like it) and/or reciepts (in Ohio they must be notarized for main components, engine etc if they are from a personal source)

We joke you can get a title for anything here "IF" you know how and where to play the right game.

We used to and I was thinking of doing it again, getting a whole bunch of "Grey Market" 2 stroke street bikes from Japan brought over as I can get them titled here, a bike I pay 1200 for used over there brings upwards of 5k titled here.

The trick is also to do it somewhere rural (in my experience) as people dont like to show they dont know what the hell they are looking at or doing., and there it has always seemed painless. The HWP in the bigger areas seems to be all punchy like youre trying to pull a fast one...the whole, Im a statie, but I am going to act like Im inspector clousea.

When the Challenger DP is all together we plan to get a title for it. Why ? Because we can :)

The DMV in Ohio has everything required on their website, its a strange list, many big ticket items, engine etc, but there are strange things they require paperwork for.

If youre SURE its Kosher, like a Bike I just got my stepdad bought new and lost the title to some 40 years ago in P.A. , he only rode the bike 70 miles and fell over on it , never rode again, Its a no brainer as I am 100% sure its legit. but as others have said , if its "iffy" well youve got to be ready to take a total loss if something comes up as "stolen" and is on their list they take the whole shabang.

Then again you can always buy a title and a vin plate.....thats the easiest route, I have a source here in Ohio they used to own a wrecking yard :) Kept all the titles and tags from cars. This may or may not be legal depending on where you live. But for $200 or so hey.....its easy .....

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Don't know what part of Ohio you live in, but where I live that's just about the fastest way I know of to end up in JAIL........

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I have titles on both. Of course Dad & I are original owners so it has made it easy LOL.

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Mike is a resident of Pa so he has to call PADMV.End of story.

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

Just to let everyone know that you must have proof of ownership while traveling trough any state, Pro stock and funny car have their State Registration with them at all time. I was stop in 1990 with a 1969 Chevelle (from a known Racer) in New-York State, the Trooper impounded the car, trailer, and tow vehicle until we came up with the car ownership. Well this started a whole new problem for me, the car had change ownership six times before I got it. I had a Notarize bill of sale with unfit for road use New-York certification but nobody had checked if it was stolen(thank God it wasn't) but it still took over a month to get my property and I had to pay the storing fees. There was an article not too long ago on Class Racer about a gentleman who never stopped looking for his fathers Stolen Road Runner(it was a 440-6 pack with rare options) he finally located it and with the aid of the FBI was able to get the car back from a Reputable(so-call expert) Antique car dealer who had never changed the ownership knowing that many valuable car owners also have never changed their ownership fearing that their pride and joy might not be so legal after all. Take it from me you need your official ownership, like the old commercial from American Express "don't leave home without it"/

Re: Titles and Race Cars
 

On the subject of titles (and racecars).
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=424951