dot compliance
 

ok racers here you go i went to the imis show in indy yesterday and stumbled upon this booth,if he is at the pri show i highly recomend talking to him.it's the NTCI(national transportation consultants inc) their name's is Joeseph Y Morrison and Robert E Siefert they did a seminar on tuesday and had a booth set up and had all kinds of free literature including a cd of the seminar.also said you could call at 1-317-770-0953 and ext 100 or 123 or cell numbers are 1-317-698-9500 for robert or 1-317-294-8560 for joseph.very nice guys to talk to this was a very informative little chat.also i forgot to put that there is a website it is www.ntconsult.com

Re: dot compliance
 

I am not sure if this is where you were going with this post
But all racers should know and understand the DOT rules
Not knowing will not get you off
And the fines are hugh
I was told this by a DOT inspector at our company Audit
And they make a habit sitting outside race tracks after events

Re: dot compliance
 

I am like Mark. If you talked to them, what did they say?

Re: dot compliance
 

i'm sorry i didn't clarify myself on this subject,i only talked to them for 10 minutes and was told that if you dont meet the weight specs that they meaning the troopers and dot can shut down your tow vehicle and trailer and impound it and cost you alot of money.this is a consulting firm that was called in specifically by the imis show for this purpose of educating racers as to dot regulations.and even not for hire race tow vehicles are in need of a cdl and a drug and alchol testing and required physical's for any vehicle setup that goes over 26,001 lbs.this group is willing to do seminars at anytime,and all they want to do is keep the racers from ending up between a rock and a hard spot.any other info needed they said to call them and ask questions they can help setup the programs you need to get on the legal track.this is a consulting firm that wants to help,they where even going to come to our awards banquet on saturday evening and talk for an hour he said,to get in touch with racers.

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The need for DOT really starts at 10,001 pounds
Ah the weight goes higher there are more rules to go by but at 10,001 you need DOT numbers in alot instances ....

Re: dot compliance
 

the whole thing goes back to whether you are a commercial operation or not.

one DOT or police officer may view you as a commercial operation, one may not.

I saw a triple axle bumber pull camper trailer with a 13000 gvw tag on it. Does a guy that is taking his family on vacation with it need a DOT # any more than those of us that just do this sport for fun.

If you treat your racing operation like a business, that is one thing and I think you need to abide by the rules, but if you just do it for relaxation, you don't need to be subject to the higher taxes, insurance, and DOT rules.

Re: dot compliance
 

mark and chris he also said that a dually truck and enclosed trailer that runs over the 10,001 lbs is also applicable to being shut down and impounded,he said ANY vehicle that breaks the weight guide lines according to the weight tags on the truck,trailer(combined gross vehicle weight of truck and trailer) whether its for relaxation or not.if you have the possibility of winning a prize of any kind its considered for profit and is applicable.i'm sorry i stirred up a bees nest,i was just trying to help and let racers know that there's somebody that wants to help.

Re: dot compliance
 

What sucks the most about all this cdl stuff is back in 89-90 when the new Federal CDL law went into effect its purpose was to make every state the same and get everyone on the same page. Now every state is different and some seem to pick and choose what you do and dont need you almost need to be some kind of cdl lawyer to know whats what. I belive its CFL 390.3 f(3) of the federal law that exempts us from the cdl stuff but the states are overriding it to make more money. What the government needs to do is quit spending money on BS and they wont need to rape our wallets on this crap to keep going.

Re: dot compliance
 

Well by the DOT rules the way the inspector told me you arent correct
They gave the example of sitting outside a track and asking people pulled over in a randomm fashion how they had done that night
As soon as they found somone that made some money bingo he was in deep crap
The DOT rules are federal rules that states enforce to get the federal money...

Re: dot compliance
 

Scotty I think you did all a favor to let the racers know what they are facing
And as our states and federal goverment are going broke they are going to find money any way they can

Re: dot compliance
 

The whole "for profit" tact that the DOT is taking is suspect at best. First of all in any business cash flow doesn't constitute profit. Cash flow minus operating expenses etc. then equals profit. I've in this game long enough to know you have to win a lot of races to make a profit, especially when you factor in the "true" cost of the racecar, trailer, tow rig, tools, entry, the list goes on. The average guy doesn't make a "profit".

So if this is the direction the DOT is going, then every guy with a set of golf clubs in the back of his pickup who is heading for a golf tournament, or a guy with a little boat and a fishing pole heading for a fishing tournament should all be subject to the same rules, because there is the potential for profit. The whole thing smells.

We're easy targets.

Re: dot compliance
 

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject


How a "consultant" can say that if you make a profit makes you commercial when this is on the books makes me curious how sharp the guy is. This question, guidance is in the dot book, and its to tell the dot cop how to interpret the law. Its federal.
The length is a bigger issue in my mind. There is no length limit for semis (surface trans act).

cw

Re: dot compliance
 

Ed

It isnt all about having a CDL
You may not need one but still come under DOT
And yes your correct medical is a big issue
You need a medical card even if it isnt CDL
If you have diabetes and take the shot each day
you cant drive anything that is DOT
You need to have a log book or time sheets
You can only drive so many hours in a 7 day period
And you have to keep track of hours working no matter what you are doing...
more to come.....

Re: dot compliance
 

Oh Ed it doent come down to if its an open trailer or enclosed
As you would say have a nice day.....

Re: dot compliance
 

Yes you need a CDL for more than 10, 000 pounds but you do not have to log if you are not in a commercial business. I know there is interpretations of what is a commercial business is. What Charlie Westcott was taking about, the exemption, not filing expenses from drag racing or any other endeavor as a deduction on your tax return, should beat a ticket in court.

Re: dot compliance
 

I have an appeal of a ticket for the 'is it commercial' and 'is it exempt' in North Carolina right now. This was a local Louisiana racer who got the treatment in NC. I have filed the appeal and have a hearing probably in March next year. Same crap, different state. Maybe it will set a prefrence. This one also deals with 'is it motor home' issue. Matter of fact, I need to find Jack Zimmerman and talk to him. He was at the meeting that the NC State Police had on one of the big NASCAR teams to address the issue, and of course the police did something else. More as it unfolds.

Re: dot compliance
 

Tony, you only need CDL if your GVW is over 26,000 pounds, not what your weight sticker on your plates show. they look on your trailer for GVW and your truck and add together, Like truck 11,400 plus three axles on trailer 6,000 each totals 29,400 pounds. DOT is different story, It depends on the state you are driving in and how you have your vehicle registered, In Nebraska you have to register your truck commercial or farm, if you drive a dually the scale boys known your GVW is over 10,000 pounds and most states want you to weigh at weigh station`s. But i drive by most of them, if they want me they come get me. Oklahoma chased me down and gave ticket in my dually. Tom

Re: dot compliance
 

A trailer that has a GVW of 10,001 lbs used in a commercial application requires a Class A cdl. 26,001 is for combinaton vehicles(truck and trailer) and single vehicles (straight trucks/ dump trucks) Basically if you were to hook a 10,001 gvw car trailer to the back of a pickup and you get paid to pull it down the road you need a class A cdl.

What pisses me off is I can hook my Buddies 40 foot speed boat to the back of my Dually and anybody can drive it anywhere in the country and have fun with it with NO PROBLEMS. My father who cant get regular cdl due to health and my son who just turned 18 can drive the farm semis anywhere with in 150 air miles of the farm NO PROBLEM. My mother who could not drive a hot nail in a snowbank Rented the biggest RV she could find last year hooked a car to the back of it and set out with her lady friends to knock down every pole, gas pump and mail box between her house and california NO PROBLEM. My sister and fathers girlfriend who drive about the same as my mother can do the same with a big *** horse trailer NO PROBLEM. But if I want to go down the road to have some fun with my race car I need a Class A cdl, Medical card, drug test myself, Dot numbers on my truck and keep track of all the hours I work all week for my logbook. Then my elected officals in Washington DC write a law and add a exemption for guys like me to race without it but my home state of IL as well as IN, OH, FL, and NC and most likely others decide to say that does not apply to their state.you better do it or its 2,500 fine for the driver and 25,000 to the owner of the truck. before any ladies get offended by the coments about my mom and sisters driving I am not being jerk they even admit that they should not be driving anything other than a car but my dad and I usually dont have time to take them so they are forced to drive the trucks and trailers or not go.

Re: dot compliance
 

My mother who could not drive a hot nail in a snowbank Rented the biggest RV she could find last year hooked a car to the back of it and set out with her lady friends to knock down every pole, gas pump and mail box between her house and california NO PROBLEM.

That right there was funny....

Re: dot compliance
 

If you put a DOT# on your pickup, how much do you think you should up your liability insurance?

What if you have that DOT# on there and get in a wreck? Then an ambulance chasing attorney is going to jump right and say you are a commercial vehicle and try to treat you like a semi truck. this could happen if you are towing, or just taking your tow vehicle out to get a gallon of milk!

i read the rules for the 10,001# trailer the way rob petrie does. if the gvw of the towed vehicle is 10,001 or more, you need a class a cdl.

but my feeling is that if no one is paying you to haul the vehicle, you aren't commercial.
you could be taking you dually out to the local casino with the possibility of winnning money also. do you need to stop at a weigh station on the way there too?

Re: dot compliance
 

The sad part is it is 100% the truth and they auctually did hit all of the above on thier month long trip. She does not think it is as funny as I do but she does say thank god she paid for the extra insurance and did not get a binder on her auto policy as most people do.

Re: dot compliance
 

You only need a CDL and all the documentation if you are driving a commercial vehicle.
I have been through all of this this year.
I have a diesel pusher motor home which is listed with a gvw of 32,000.
I need and have a class B non commercial.
I can tow a trailer of 10,000 lbs gvw or less with that license.
I can get a class A and tow a trailer of more than 10,000 gvw which is also good for the 26,001 gvw pickup and trailer combination.
As long as you are not a commercial operation you do not need the CDL.
The Class A & B use the same testing programs as the CDL you just do not the the physical and log books. I in fact had to parallel park my 40 ft motor home and never touch the curb and be within 18 inches of the curb both front and back inside a spot that looked like was about 60 ft wide without jockeying it. Not an easy task even with practice before doing it and I will never do it again.
My Class B is good for 7 years just like a regular class C and the CDL is good for only 2 years at a time I believe.
These are all Federal Rules and each state should be the same.
The way the Rules are applied is as wide spread as the number of officer's enforcing them.
Been There And Done It This Year

Re: dot compliance
 

63corvette, How many axles does your trailer have? 2 axles rated at 5,200 = 10,400, DOT goes by what axles are rated at, not weight sticker on trailer plate, If you have a 3 axles trailer i would not drive in Nebraska with out CDL, You can call me when they put you out service at scale, so you can leave because i have a CDL , I`ve already had to do this for a friend. also had to do this at north scale on interstate 29 in missouri. Plus i took my log book with me.Tom

Re: dot compliance
 

My trailer is a 2 axle with a gvw of 9,670 so I am safe.
I do not pull a stacker like many do.
I have been through Neb. many times and had no trouble.
I also do not stop at the scales. No one has chased me down yet and I now have 100,000 miles mostly going racing with the trailer behind me. Most of those were without the Class B I got this last year.
Like I said it all depends on the officer who takes a look.
I have friends who have had trouble with their 1 ton dually and trailer due to the 26,001 and many officers just do not like race cars when they look inside the trailer.
Nothing is totally safe.
My 2 Cents

Re: dot compliance
 

driver for hire: i have a cdl class a with all endorsments, been driving a hazmat truck for a couple years, would much rather drive one of these big race rigs, leave room for my small racecar please, this may sound funny but putting me on your payroll would probably be cheaper than the fine! (hope this isn't highjacking of this thread) just thinking about possibilitys

Re: dot compliance
 

[


NOTE the Federal Reg. says 10,001 COMBINED weight!!!
Section 391.2


QUOTE=63corvette;155096]My trailer is a 2 axle with a gvw of 9,670 so I am safe.
I do not pull a stacker like many do.
I have been through Neb. many times and had no trouble.
I also do not stop at the scales. No one has chased me down yet and I now have 100,000 miles mostly going racing with the trailer behind me. Most of those were without the Class B I got this last year.
Like I said it all depends on the officer who takes a look.
I have friends who have had trouble with their 1 ton dually and trailer due to the 26,001 and many officers just do not like race cars when they look inside the trailer.
Nothing is totally safe.
My 2 Cents[/QUOTE]

Re: dot compliance
 

The key is is the tile to both in your personal name or buss name?

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If they consider your racing as a way to make money(if you win money no matter the amount) it doesnt matter what name it is in...

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Oh one more thing no alcohol in the vehicle it isnt allowed (this mean none open or not)
The legal limit is .04

Re: dot compliance
 

Blue Oval Ralph my name is Rick Cates and I live in Canyon Tx. Just a retired guy who races for fun across the country for parts of the year.
When I joined this site I put the 63 Corvette as a handle not knowing it would only list that in the posts. I have tried to change it to my name and I can not figure out how to get that done.

The 10,001 is not a combined weight for pulling a trailer with a class B it is for the trailer weight alone. The class B covers a vehicle of 26,001 or more alone and restricts the trailer to 10,000. If you go over the 10,000 it takes a class A for the combined weight.

Again it all depends on the officer and how he looks at it. I drove my rig for about 8 years without anything but a class C. I went to the Highway Patrol license office before buying it and asked about license restrictions. They at that time just kept telling me it was a motor home and nothing else was needed. I tried to question that and the lady began to get angry so l left it at that.

This spring at the Las Vegas race a group of racers were discussing what type of license was required for our rigs. One from Ca and one from Az both told me I should check again so I did when I did get back home and things had changed. I was told then I needed the class B. I did get it after jumping through all the hoops for them and now I should be legal.

Just my story and experience from being there and doing it. Nothing else.

Re: dot compliance
 

There are two issues that are getting confused.
1. USDOT motor carrier. If you operate your racing activities as a business, by deducting expenses from your taxes, and travel through more than one state, then you are operating in interstate commerce. If your vehicle combination is 10,001 lbs or more then you are a motor carrier and require a DOT number. If you transport your own equipment that you use for your business (racing) then you are a private motor carrier. If someone pays you to transport their equipment then you would be a "For Hire" motor carrier.
2. CDL. You can drive a 26,000 lb tow vehicle and a 10,000 lb trailer for a GCVW of 35,000 without having a CDL. If the trailer hits 10,001 or the tow rig hits 26,001 you have to have a CDL

Scott Bechler

Re: dot compliance
 

OK,so if someone has a 4500 series dually and a 42' L/Q trailer what class CDL is required?

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There are alot gray areas in DOT and the laws are changing everyday. We use J.J. Keller
for our questions and saftey program in our trucking company. The website is www. jjkeller.com and they are open 24/7 to answer any questions. Believe me when I say the laws change everyday. Also every state has their own little laws too. Just my 2 cents.



26,001 and over with air brakes (CDL B)
26,001 and over combo(truck and trailer) CDL A
RV's no cdl
alot of you guys can run (NOT FOR HIRE) on your trailer

Re: dot compliance
 

ED, a CDL covers everything, for a commercial operation except the Hazardous Materials endorsement, which is a total other issue when you carry fuel of a certain amount.

For a non commercial operation a non commercial Class A covers the dually and trailer. I am sure a 4500 dually and a 42 ft trailer goes over the 26,001 combined weight.
I have the Class B for my motor home and trailer less than 10,001 lbs GVW.

It really is confusing for people and what makes it worse is there are as many ideas on what the rules mean as there are police officers to try and enforce them.

My 2 Cents

Re: dot compliance
 

Thank you.I'm just running senarios through my head.I currently am a CDL B w/air.

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JJ Keller is one of the best companys out there! But
RV's no cdl this is ture only if Titled in Personal Name if if it is in a Company Name the it is comerical and all DOT laws apply!

Re: dot compliance
 

These guys are in my hometown, where my Dad still lives. He has an appointment with them next week. I will try to post what he finds out, although our situation may be different - we have a dually pickup with a 48-ft gooseneck with living quarters. According to Indiana BMV, it is an RV and is plated as such. :-)

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MFR440

How is the truck registered?

Re: dot compliance
 

Mark has a point. The registration of the power unit is what is important.

Re: dot compliance
 

Like Blue Oval Ralph says it all depends if it is a business or a personal rig.
If it is a personal truck or motor home like mine is it just takes the Class B or Class A non commercial.
From having racer friends and long discussions of this at the races in the evenings it seems a motor home pulling a trailer is usually left alone. The same for the dually and 5th wheel trailers. The ones drawing the most attention is the toter homes and the stacker trailers. Toter homes closer resemble long haul trucks so they seem to draw more attention.
The biggest thing that is getting people pulled over now seem to be over length.
I witnessed that coming home from Pamona last month. On I-40 Jim Heads car hauler and motor home pulling a stacker trailer were traveling together. The motor home was stopped by the Ca Highway Patrol near Needles and it looked like they were measuring it as we went by. About a mile down the road was the car hauler pulled over waiting.
The motor home was a tandem axle 42 or 45 ft pulling about a 30 ft stacker which would have put him at close to 80 ft in length. Ca length law is 65 so I am sure he was in trouble. We went by and kept on going.
Again it all depends on the police officer and what he thinks the law is and there is a lot of different opinions.
My 2 Cents