Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Since NHRA Competiton Eliminator car count is down what about moving any car in Super Stock that has an after market Hood scoop on it to Comp eliminator . this would be a good move on NHRA part to help save Comp Eliminator to help increase the car count in that eliminator would be a wise move or a bad move ??.

let it rip boys and girls:D:p

ps The post has absolutely nothing to do with anyone personally Just a simple post so Please no one read into this other than what was posted .Just maybe a way to save comp if it is in trouble with car count , just a simple statement nothing more everyone wheww

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

This one should be good. Only the guys with modified cars will be pi**ed off. Good luck with this.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I guess Don doesn't have an agenda with this idea.If someone has the patience to list all the so called Pro Sportsman Racers I think you'll see quite a number run hood scoop cars. That means he has a better chance to go a round or two.Wadda ya say Don?
I don't have to deal with them so it's just an "opinion" on my part.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

How about DeFrank and Fletcher to start.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Ed You crack me up you think anyone who has an new idea or starts a post has an agenda which is nothing wrong with that you just make me laugh

oh ed by the way I could care less about the touring pro sportsman fyi

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Yeah I can see that.I'm glad I make you laugh.Good night Don.
Wanna make an offer on the mini diapers?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Not to hijack the thread,but I really need an explanation of Comp Eliminator.I really don't understand it anymore.

I was reading my last National Dragster and a comment was made about not wanting to take a permanent hit,even in the final,by running .66 or .67 under.

" I'm just not going to render this car useless" was the quote.

How does Comp work?

It doesn't sound like a very appealing class.Run too slow and you lose,but run too fast and your car is useless?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Comp can be, at times, confusing. It's almost a combination of bracket racing and first to the stripe.

Two cars (except those in the same class) are handicapped off of their class index. First one to the stripe wins. But there is a catch, the Competition Index Control (CIC). Similar to the -1.40 under rule for S/SS racing. If a driver runs more than -.509 under their Index in eliminations, their Index is reduced one hundreth, for each hundreth they exceed the -.50, temporarily (for that race only, for that driver only). After a driver runs more than -.610 under their original Index, it becomes a permanent Class index adjustment, for everyone in that class. For example:

A driver is competing in C/Altered, with an Index of 8.00. In winning the first round, they run 7.460. Meaning their Index for round two is 7.96. Second round their opponent redlights, so they can lift and "save the Index". Round three, they win, and run 7.423, seconds, so their Index for the semifinals is 7.93. They win the semifinals, running 7.400. Their Index for the final will be 7.90. If they do not run any quicker than 7.391 in the final, the Index will return to 8.00 for everyone in C/A following the event. However, if that driver runs 7.350 in the final (regardless of a win or loss), the Index will be 7.95 for everyone in C/A in the country. The permanent Index hit chart is as follows:

-.61 under original Index = .01 permanent change
-.62 = .02
-.63 = .03
-.64 = .04
-.65.to -.699 = .05
-.710 = .06
-.72 = .07
-.73 = .08
-.74 = .09
-.750 and more = .10.
A tenth is the maximum penalty a driver/class can incur in one event. A driver that runs -.800 under in round one will lose three tenths for round two, but only one tenth permanently. So for round two, the Index will be 7.70 for yourself, and adjusted to 7.90 for everyone the following Monday

Now, back the temporary CIC deal. If you have accrued .07 temporary penalties in C/A (having run 7.928, adjusting the original Index down from 8.00 to 7.93) and another C/A racer has accumulated .02 (down to 7.98), if you race each other in eliminations, the Index goes back to 8.00 for you both, and it's heads-up. The winner will revert back to their adjusted Index (plus any penalty incurred in the Class run) for the next round. So, if you run 7.410 in your Class run, your Index goes from the previous 7.93 to 7.91 for the next round. So, you need to get their first, but attempt to do so by the slimmest of margine, to minimize any Index penalties. If a racer causes a permanent Index adjustment in two different classes, he/she is relegated to those two classes for the remainder of the season.

Hope this helps. How'd I do, Professor Ring?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I realize this will never happen, but the best place for the hood scoop cars in super stock would be modified eliminator. Run it just like stock and super stock off indexes and dial in. I think there would be a bunch of cars built for the class. Maybe give the older cars a weight break.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Once again, you have to think long term and consider all of the ramifications. The faulty premise here is presuming that all hood scoop cars would 1) continue to race and 2) would race in Comp eliminator. In all likelihood, all this would accomplish would be some "hood scoop" racers quit, and other build a different combination. This would be like telling certain Stock & Super Stock cars, "Oh, you run 9's... you can just run Super Gas." And how many have done that? Exactly 1, I believe. So, you end up not only NOT increasing car counts in Comp, but decreasing the car count in Super Stock, while simultaneously devaluing the equipment owned by a large number of racers.

As a conservative, you should know that you cannot successfully legislate an outcome. Don't "abandon free market principles to save the free market." The sanctioning body does not *create* participation. It creates an environment where participation may exist, if the customers like that environment and its incentives.

$.02,

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

i run a hoodscoop car and would have no problem going to comp, but better yet, bring back modified. it is not that i will be competetive in comp, but i understand where legitimate ss cars are coming from. we did not ask to get dumped in there, that is where they told us to go. again, i know where ss cars are coming from, and take no offense.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Ok Don I will bite. I see your point on trying to keep the class more stock appearing. So lets go one step further any and all GT cars that were produced front wheel drive must stay front wheel drive or else move up to comp also? How does this sound?

New SS racer Josh Edwards (needed a reply so here is my name)

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

The real problem it seems to me is the lack of cars in comp eliminator and Plenty of cars in Super stock eliminator ,me personally if comp goes away it will hurt everyone even stock and Super Stock ,some of you all don't remember when NHRA did away with Modified it was not good so if you want comp to stay around I would be pro active in getting the car count up . If you think comp is not being looked with ways to increse car count then think again it is .

Jason said "So lets go one step further any and all GT cars that were produced front wheel drive must stay front wheel drive or else move up to comp also? How does this sound?

Don responded by "cool" I would not mind that > I like comp they get the good pit spaces and actually have a set time to run .


Michael said This :"Once again, you have to think long term and consider all of the ramifications"

don says I agree

Michael said "This would be like telling certain Stock & Super Stock cars, "Oh, you run 9's... you can just run Super Gas." And how many have done that?

Is this going to be another post as Super Stock has plenty of car count this post is about looking in the future and seeing if comp may be in trouble and solving the issue of no car count before comp goes away because lack of car count in my opinion

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Aint gonna happen, so it doesn't matter what anybody here says.

Hood scoop cars don't bother me, and we have plenty of them around here.

Comp is crazy expensive, not all that far off of Pro Stock if your going to be really fast, with less pay back. It would just hurt our car counts. I don't see the upside.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Don,

I realize that this may not be the typical scenario, but in Seattle this year, there were 22 cars in SS, 6 of which were hood scoop cars and Sonoma had 38 cars, 7 or which were hood scoop cars.

Memphis had 56 SS, 15 of which were hood scoop cars and Virginia had 52 cars, 16 of which were hood scoop cars.

I'm really not sure we can say that there is an abundance of Super Stockers...

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I could deal with that rule, But then they would have to allow 4 cylinder motors because thats what most of those cars came with.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I dont mean any disrespect in my post. It was just to show how dumb the first idea was. Leave well enough alone. Just remember anybody and everybody can be beat. Isn't it just a bracket race anyway?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Beard you sound like one of the guys from that show, big bang theory... readin your reply made my head hurt :P

I already have one comp car that ain't competitve(w/a spare obsolete chassis to boot!), now you want me to have two? :P lol

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Josh (A good driver) Edwards said This " Isn't it just a bracket race anyway? '

Don Says That is kind of of true except a bracket car has no engine rules ,just safety rules , a bracket car cannot set a national record , a bracket car does not ever qualify , a bracket car never has to tear down, and a bracket car doesn't not have a national index to run off , other that I guess Josh you could say that the only common thing Comp , Super Stock and Stock have with a bracket car is shoe polish . and dialing the car

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Wait, isn't that Stock Eliminator?
(Just missing something called "the possible heads up run" correct?)

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I dont care what rules you use to get there it is still a bracket race. I have qualified at a bracket race to figure out who i run first round, Its just decided by reaction time not by how far under a determined E.T. given to me. As for comp I never said it was the same that is a whole other class by itself. To refresh you memory on bracket racing here is the definition. I think over the years you have lost the meaning. Try not to think of all the people the fame ,lights, cameras or your pit spot but think of all the fun you used to have.


Bracket racing is a form of drag racing that allows for a handicap between predicted elapsed time of the two cars over a standard distance, usually 1/4 mile (402.336 m) or 1/8 mile (201.168 m).
Each car chooses a dial-in time before the race, predicting the elapsed time the driver estimates it will take his or her car to cross the finish line. This is generally displayed on one or more windows so the starter can adjust the "Christmas tree" starting lights accordingly. The slower car in the race is given the green light before the faster car by a margin of the difference between their two dial-in times. When a car leaves the starting line, a timer is started for that car. The difference between when the green light comes on and when the car moves is called the reaction time. If the drivers have equal reaction times and the cars run perfectly on their dial-ins, the cars would cross the finish line at precisely the same moment. This has never happened.
If either car goes faster than its dial-in (called breaking out), it is disqualified; if both cars break out, the one who breaks out by the smallest amount wins. This eliminates any advantage from bending the rules by putting a slow dial-in time on the windshield to get a head start.[citation needed] However, some racers will purposely dial a slower time and then let off of the throttle or use their brakes near the end of the track in an attempt to trick the other driver into breaking out. This racing technique is called "Sandbagging" and, although useful and technically legal, is looked down upon at most amateur events as a form of cheating and un-sportsman like conduct.
If a car leaves the starting line before the green light comes on, a foul is recorded (a red-light start), and that car is disqualified. If both cars red-light, the one that fouled first is disqualified. Another form of foul is to cross the dividing line between the two lanes, or the line at the edge of the racing surface. A foul is worse than a break out; one car can break out but if the other car fouls, the car that breaks out advances to the next round.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Mike,
Nice, but my head hurts!
Does the Index drop .3 for all in that class at the event?
"Relegated to those classes..." Is that real? Either case, pretty funny!
Thanks for the birds eye view.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I own a comp car and I'm always happy if someone wants to join us, but I don't think NHRA should force the hood scopp folks in.

As for the expense of comp versus SS-I can afford a 4 cylinder Bantum altered and am partners with the engine builder in the project, so that is what makes comp affordable for me. But one of those SS/?S or SS/?M hood scoop cars built by East Texas or B and B is way out of my price range, to say nothing of what a hemi car costs. I'm not sure that there is any car in drag racing that costs as much to build as a hemi, except aybe what it costs to build an engine shop for pro stock and that seems to be the way to go in that class these days.

And Mike Carr-your explanation was quite good-only one error

-.65.to -.699 = .05

that should be -.650 to -.709 = .05

So you only get an A-.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

my 2 cents...

the fastest car in any handicap eliminator has a huge advantage due to two factors.
one first redlight rule (nhra will never change it to be fair)
two driving the finish line is mucho easier (not nhra's fault)

so... the scoop guys have these two advantages... and they will fight to the death for them

anyway as i see the current evolution...
if the scoops go to comp then we get stock & superstock lumped together...

i do NOT wish for stock & superstock to get lumped but i'd like to see scoops outta SS

anyway we will be the last ot know as usual

captain jack

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Ah, another drive-by pot-stirring from the fertile mind of Don Kennedy for our winter time enjoyment.
I sincerely hope that you don't view this as a personal attack. I know how you despise those.
But in response, I don't know the time and date when Super Stock ceased to be the real S/S, but IMHO the former Modified cars certainly contributed to it's demise. And I loved the old Modified Eliminator. It should be brought back. Maybe it could replace nitro F/C? I would truly love that!

Comp Eliminator as it was explained to me:
Pro Stock, without the respect.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I actually have to race them, and don't mind them a bit.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I've got a "scoop" car and I've been spotted by some "real" S/S cars so where's the advantage?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

sprnova, how many heads-up races did you have this year? Think I had six?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

For anyone who doesn't feel like weeding through my post, Lyons' last sentence pretty well sums it up. :D

There is no shoe polish in Comp, hence the problem with trying to force cars from one eliminator into another which bares very little resemblance to the other. Comp is an awesome class, but the bottom line is that the risk vs reward is always going to limit participation. If Comp was not a first to the finish class, it'd be more affordable, but it would also cease to be Comp.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

no heads up runs

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

After you have a few of those, you won't think it's just bracket racing. :D

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Josh,

I’m not of the opinion that hood scoop cars (Modifieds). should be removed from Super Stock. If I had half a brain, I’d run one of the “Weigh Me, Pump Me, Send Me to Dinner” classes.

It wasn’t the topic of Don’s post but, I do believe that a case can be made that the Indexes for Modified classes are not equitable. Currently a disproportionate number of Modifieds qualify at the top of the ladder. As you so eloquently (and accurately outside of a heads up) describe the Eliminator as a bracket race, it isn’t hard to see why positions 1-4 on the qualifying sheet are of high value. Cars 1-4 will always get the available byes if they are still in competition. Any free pass in a round of a single elimination contest doubles the statistical odds of winning the event.

The reason that Modifieds qualify at the top is a function of the AHFS. At national events Modifieds can trigger the AHFS and they are balanced out by every car in their class. Traditional Super Stock cars that trigger are only balanced against their same engine combination. In reality, this means many Super Stock cars get horsepower adjustments after hitting -1.15 while Modifieds in practice only get an adjustment when they run -1.40 at sea level. In reality it would currently take a -.25 or -.30 change to the Modified indexs to bring equity to the qualifying and ladder situation, IMHO.

That said, that black V-6 Camaro is a bad dude.
As is that Silver Mustang with a couple of missing cylinders.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

You sir dont need to worry about me. (heads up or bracket style) I can take care of myself.


Not to hyjack the thread I believe they all have a place, as long as your with in the rules.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Mr Stock you have good points. But you say the top 4 have an advantage by potentially having a bye, come 1 or 2 round when they get beat by a lower qualified car (beat by bracket racing) now they have the advantage? And what camaro and Mustang are you refering to?

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I agree 100%! What the hell difference does it make if the car has a scoop or not? I have been converting my car into a "hood scoop car" with the hopes of going faster and still running in a "class" I can be competitive in. A few years ago I made the BIG mistake of thinking the IHRA was serious about growing the Midwest and I built a Crate Motor combo only to have them pull out of Div. 5 the same year I got it done. Now I'm on the down hill side of building a Modified and you want the NHRA to put me into Comp? Give me a break! If I could afford Comp I would run Comp. I honestly would like to someday. But right now it's not going to happen. I built my car, 89 Mustang, as a 302HO Stocker in 1992 and was one of the first FI mustangs in the country. I worked HARD to get the combo figured out and eventually I succeeded. I got my *** handed to me more than a few times along the way by a big ol' station wagon and Al Provoast when I ran in N/SA. I grew to have a large amount of respect for him and instead of whining about him having a bogus combo or cheating,(neither of which were true in my opinion), I WORKED harder, spent a little more money, and eventually I beat him and many others. Then, someone decided that because the (at the time) new LT1 Camaros' were beating up on the old muscle cars that ALL of the fuel injected cars needed their own class so it would be "fair" to everyone. What a bunch of liberal thinking crap! Is'nt that why we have a HP factoring system? That was the last straw for me at the time with NHRA and was when I built the Crate Motor combo. Hey, I'm a Ford guy through and through but I think the new CJ Mustangs should get hammered with HP right now! In this instance it is NOT a fair playing field for the other cars in the class. Getting back to the current discussion why do some people seem to worry SO much about the "touring Pro Sportsman" drivers and what they drive. Truth is, most of them could get into the slowest car in the class and still whip everyone's *** more often than not. Yes, I believe having the faster car is an advantage and that is part of the reason I am building one. But, the biggest reason they win more often than the average joe is they are NOT the average joe! They race more often, do more maintenance to keep the cars in top shape in some cases, set the cars up to BRACKET race, and generally have better skills. Getting all the evil "hood scoop cars" out of SS will solve nothing. These are just my opinions and even though I am 100% correct feel free to debate me. Geesh!

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Josh,

A fast black 3rd Gen with a hood scoop I saw out west this fall, had a pretty good driver as well. I think it was black anyway.

What I said about byes was. "Cars 1-4 will always get the available byes if they are still in competition." 1-4 will always get the byes, if they are still in. If they lose before the bye they don't get them.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

If you are talking about just forcing those car to run an existing Comp class, no problem. If you are talking about adding more classes to Comp to accomodate them, then I have a big problem with it.

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Don : You are a comp person do you think comp in the future is in a lack car count problem??

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

Bobby, no, just three tenths for you. 8.00 Index, if you run 7.200 in the first round, that is -.800. Your Index for round 2 is now 7.70 (for you only) and will be 7.90 come Monday (for you and everyone else in your class). The temporay CIC (Competition Index Control) hits of -.510 to -.609 affect you only, for that event. When a racer goes more than -.610 at that race, the permanent Index is adjusted, as mentioned earlier, for all in your class. Even if you run 7.410 first round, your Index is 7.91 for next round, while another racer in the same round runs 7.450, his Index will be 7.95 for second round. If you both should run second round against each other, the Index reverts to 8.00 for you both, heads-up. If you win that round on a redlight and can "save" your Index, your Index goes to the 7.91 it would have been, for round 3. Temporary Index hits, as I said, effect that particular driver. If two seperate drivers in the same class both go -.60 in round one, but neither of you go any faster at that event, no permanent adjustment happens and you and everyone in your class goes back to 8.00 at the next race

And yes, once a driver permanently adjusts two different classes (say, B/ED and F/AA), you are stuck in one of those two classes for the rest of the year. I think it's a fair deal. A few years back, a team made a comment in an article, that with two cars, and a multitude of engines, transmissions, intake/carburetors, they could fit eighteen different classes. The two-class rule is in effect to keep the people with a lot of money, but with, shall we say, less than stellar driving ability, from hitting all these different classes permanently and possibly obsoleting a lot of good cars and classes when most can not afford to even come close to running that many cars/classes.

Dave, I'll take the A-. I copied/pasted it from a previous post I made in January, and had the same mistake then, too. So I guess I really get a B+. LOL

Re: Hood Scoops to Comp
 

I like the idea!