The just because I can category....
 

Ok all, Im new to NHRA class racing....really new....not new to racing, mostly GP motorcycles and the last few years Vintage GP

Im getting close maybe 3 weeks off from finishing (to the tuning and changeup stage) project, and other than a busy season of running it.

Well Im thinking of several projects after that to keep me busy in between. I have 3 of the 4 projects and all the parts to finish them from nut to bolt, someday Im sure I will.....my 68 GTO convertible, my 49 plmouth 3 window, and my 72 Challenger.

But.....those are cool for getting Ice cream with the kids and all, but I apparently have the bug again (good thing Im single again, my ex nearly divorced me 3 times because of racing motorcycles...lol)

I see a lot of potential in the rules for NHRA Class racing , the rules from what I am used to are pretty liberal, AND with the current readjustments across the board, people are going to be in a panic/despair,reckless/readjustment phase of the rules and classes I have the advantage of not being in or subject to.

I see a 4 cylinder car I could make easily run 3 full seconds under the current revised index, I made one run 2 under not even trying once upon time (10 years ago) but it wasnt a "stocker" hell it was a lot less, it was a stock 40k car I played with, it wasnt even a drag car it was just a weekend toy. I had it in the 15s

The question I have is, given a car that could run in F, and a full 3 seconds under if I cared to for a sum of about 7k including car, paint and everything neeeded to be legal, well after I buld it and do what I set out to Ill be bored, soooooo.... A) Is there a market price to consider for selling it B)What are some of the things to watch out for running it (other than geting HP and weight) C) Is there a way to make a name in stockers by doing something like this ? I did the bike thing, and got bored by it....and killed by it....lol....but Im feeling much better now :) So hence the car thing .....

The other car we are doing is because we can and we are doing it for "history" and well as father son project as it were...

For 4 years my ex yelled at me about $ and bikes, she couldnt understand 10k in a motorcycle motor, till I sold it, then after a year off she asked "when are you going to build another bike ?" she knew damm well after I tracked it 2 or 3 times I be building and more important to her SELLING another one and doubling my money.

So......is there a going ***** price for a 3 second under car ? Or how much could be made in a given season with a car that could reliably do that ?

I would like to make a name for myself as a builder on the driveline side, and there are a lot of respected and established builders on the "vintage" GM, Ford and Mopar side of the old standbys big block, small block etc.

Do you think with the index changes there will be a thinking outside the norm ? And hence an opportunity ? or is it just going to be more of the same people trying to do the same things but somehow a bit better this time.......

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Let me understand this...... for 7K include paint and initial purchase you can build a 3(three) second under legal stock eliminator car? :eek:

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Stick with bikes, that seems a bit more realistic at this point.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

You obviously have way too much money, way too little humility, no where near enough of an understanding of what it takes to build a Stock Eliminator car and no brains whatsoever!

Re: The just because I can category....
 

I can see the headlines now...."Man makes fortune building and selling FWD stock eliminator cars!!!"
:rolleyes:

Re: The just because I can category....
 

If it was that easy to make a legal car run 2-3 seconds under, everyone would be doing it.

One thing I can say for certain, if you bring a car to the track that runs three seconds under, there will be a line of folks putting up their money to have you take it apart.

I think it would be more realistic to say you had a car that would run 3 tenths under, but I suspect you will have a hard time getting a car to run the index unless it is truly and odd ball combination that is basically in the wrong class anyway.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

After a moment of pondering, this is a suggested option. Build a 1969 Nova with the 255 horse power, Q-jet combination. Then, Take it to a Lucas Oil Divisional race and run a low 9 second et. thus, resetting the F/SA record by a substantial margin.

Now the key item, pass tech inspection as a legal entry.

Once you have that accomplished, write a book detailing the build up. It will be a must read for all racers, thus, making huge sums of cash for the author.

My fee for this winning suggestion is simply a pre-release copy of the book.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Drooze: It's not BRAGGIN' if you can back it up! JB

Re: The just because I can category....
 

The only combo I could see running a second or better under and being bone stock would be a turbo,5 speed Omni,and running at Bandimere. I know someone who has done it. I don`t think many people would be lining up to purchase one of those.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Sure you've got the car classification figured out correctly?

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Its RWD :)

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Yes thats exactly what it is, Im not saying by any stretch I can do that with any car.

Basically I looked at all the cars in the classification guides I have intimate familiarity with and well....I found one that it looks like noone ever tried or played with, and its so far off its actually funny, effectivley in the wrong class.....but rules is rules....

Like I said, without major work 10 years ago I had one bone stock with 40k on the dial, a weekend of work , never cracked the top end of the motor and it ran 2 seconds under what its class factor is now after the redjustment. Im thinking by actually going through it I could probably pick up some more potential....as there is a lot to be had.

Im not going to say what the car is, and Ill bet youve maybe seen in person 50 in your life. Its scare and even now so more.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Well I hope so.....lol...otherwise weve just spend a whole lot of money on the Drag Pak Challenger....whats it run in again U right....lol...Im kidding...yes I have it figured out, good question though and no offense taken as I believe your question was an honest one.

I found a combo it looks like a)has never been adjusted as its still at factory rating, and b)is so far off base its comical c)its a pretty scarce combo, but I know where to get my hands on one.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

EXACTLY, and I wanted either the motivation or the the "You cant do it" , or to know most importantly in the end the $ return of doing it, If I do and can whats my investment in time (the fun is there of course of doing it) but in the end when Im done Ill be bored, I like building them, so it will be sold...I wont do it for break even or a loss, If I could double my money by doing what I say I can do (and I thought loooonnnng and hard before posting that becuase I knew how it would sound) Whats my capital investment going to return.

Motorcycles are harder to make cosistent and perform like animals, expecially the GP bikes, its a hell of a lot different trying to squeeze every ounce outta a 250cc motor...and the GP bike have been my thing for the last 20 years.....Im not bragging, I just know what I know, and I know smaller motors, thats probably why I gravitated to this combo , both 10 years ago and while looking at every possible car to do a low buck stocker. we already are finishing up our high buck stocker the Drag Pak Challenger so....I like Dark Horses....and this one fits the bill.... with that could have that potential effect of probably being classed wrong.

Yer right Jim, its not braggin if you can back it up.....

Re: The just because I can category....
 

I'm not sure that I follow this thead completely,but you are saying that you could build an F/S car that could run well into the eight second zone?
For example,the new F/SA index is 11.85.An 8.85 would be three seconds under.Is that correct?

Re: The just because I can category....
 

You have too much time and money on your hands. Forget about the car, just finish your mopar and get it on the track. From there you will see what you are up against. Three things, cut a light and know where you are on the track, and finding the finish line without breaking out . Sounds easy, ask some of the guys that have been around for 35 or 40 years why they have not won a race yet. You are going to have a big learning experience, one car is enough to figure out let alone 2 or 3.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

I think that somebody thinks that they discovered the Cosworth Vega!

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Nope...wouldnt mind having one as a collector item, I kinda always dug em....but yer close :) Although Im sure someone has already run one of those.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

I do have too much time, no doubt about that, all I do is build stuff.

The money, well what comes out of my cars and bikes goes back into them and I skim some off the top for my expenses, my house is paid for and I have no debt so its not really having too much money I just have nothing else to do.......yeah time.

The DP Challenger is on schedule and will be phase 1 done by 2nd week of January, phase 2 tranny and engine are in process and the parts are out getting handled, in as much as a driver and skills go....ha...thats funny. There are things I know and there are things Im good at. Driving and Riding Im "Ok" just "Ok" I found us a driver for the first part of the season at least, someone who I have no doubt of their capabilities. So.....thats one thing I DONT have to worry about, Ill play seat jockey at Regionals and thats about it if I get an itch.

I didnt say I was new to drag racing just NHRA Stock Eliminator. My toy was going to be a FED for next year, something slow like in the 8's just a toy, that will give me something to work on, wax, drool on....I love the FEDs...

I do appreciate the advice Bob, I know it was meant as sincere, but the driving issue isnt really an issue for me.......as a)I dont expect to win any regionals b)I have a driver for the Nats so....that leaves building them.

And the Challenger isnt mine, its the old mans, Im just building it for him. Something we could do together and have fun at......and it will be an experience....but youd have to know us I guess, even epic failures here are fun.

Ive died twice, and hes got health issues and not even supposed to be here, so I guess its all relative, fun or winning and dont get me wrong its twice as fun when you can do both :)

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Hey Billy
I think your right on the cosworth vega boy is the computer under
the seat is large.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

I used F as an arbitrary example, trying not to tip my hand, perhaps that was a bad choice, because I see where your confusion is, but yes sort of.... what I am saying is actually I can build a W car that can run well into the 14's, I had one in the low 15s with timing and some other "things" none involved even cracking the motor, with a long duration cam and coatings... Its possibly and potentially faster, I could see the combo breaking the high 13's legally....100% legally, if it did break into the 13's thats where Im talking about 3 seconds.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

You're all over the map here. First it's a FWD, 4 cyl, then it's RWD. 15 seconds is only about 1 second under the slowest RWD class index. The first second comes easiest ,by the way.
I was going to treat this like Billy does,but then I remembered what it was like to be snowed in on a weekend . Enough for now.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Been There Done That
PS You must give new meaning to the word fortune. LOL
:rolleyes:

Re: The just because I can category....
 

How 'bout a 71 Yugo??? :eek: lol...i'm just a wanna be Class Racer but, a long time racer, and it's always fun to see someone come along that thinks this stuff is soooooo easy. :D
It reminds me of people that say "anyone can drive in a straight line"...:rolleyes:

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Zastava wasnt making them then, but "A Merry Yugo" in Barberton Ohios head Mechanic had a high 13 second one in about 87....the Fiat parts interchange albeit not legal for Stock eliminator

And just because Im new to Stock Eliminator means I have that much more to prove (to myself only) If I can kick some others in the teeth at the track along the way all the more fun, it also means I have a fresh perspective on rules and loopholes that others dont see. I have been racing since I was 8, Motorcycles, then karts then cars, then bikes again....30+ years now, yes Im 38, Ive died twice racing, so Id say Im pretty invested in it and know what is and what isnt possible from my own capabilities, I retired 2 years ago from my day job to do this full time.

Well see you at the Track next year Im sure well be running in A, B, D, E and F at all the Nationals (ab, def depending on field and where our best opps are).....I dont worry about the driving part, I leave that to hired guns when needed.

Cheers

Chris

(And yes it really is that easy to drive straight, if my 12 year old can....to drive straight GOOD is different and Ill give you that.....take a vintage GP bike that handles like a big gyro on a 4 hour road course endurance run....Hence the Drag racing, my body dosent recover as fast from that anymore)

Re: The just because I can category....
 

DROOZE
Can I assume you are some of the young blood that is not suppose to be coming in to stock? Well, welcome aboard. I will say that your excitment and enthusiasm sounds like these old guys did in the 60's. If you want to get your name out there, may I suggest you bring your car to Indy in Sept and make your runs. If you accomplish your goal, I can guarantee your name will be well known by Monday night. You might even pick up a new nickmane along the way. The problem is NHRA will bring your new HP in a 40' shipping container and say they are just correcting a typo in the book, but if you truly want to become famous, this would do it and for $7K, what a bargain!

I say build it....

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Mark......He, just another young BS'er. He dosent have a clue until he gets out there.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Thanks, I will be there, I think this second car should be done by Indy, and thats also what I like about it the HP adjustments wont piss on anyone parade for 1 and for 2 the car will be something to hang on to for me after its life in Stock, I dig em..........

lol...I like the crate comment.....

Cheers

Chris

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Did a Google search to find out when Yugo's were made ,'eh? I was being sarcastic....You keep sayin' you've died twice, did you have an out of body experiance that told you how to build a 3 second under Stock Eliminator car? :eek: :D:D

Re: The just because I can category....
 

No, I know a lot about cars specifically strange **** noone else digs, I had an 84 Yugo for a parts runner, brought over for emission and compliance testing...a good car, not one of the crappy cookie cutter jobs they did later, but actually build well....zippy little bugger with the right Fiat parts......

No no outer body experience, just black........and then oh **** I hurt waking up in the hospital later. No, but the last time (first time was when I was younger 19) the last time made me realize whats important, having fun and DOING it.....

So I do...... I dont JUST talk about it I do it....I do talk a lot but it helpps me bounce Ideas....

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Chris,

Don't forget that you need to attend/enter/race Divisonal and National
meets to earn the points needed to enter Indy.

Question, are the points earned by the car or the driver? As in a car
is raced 10 times in a year but by two different drivers so which driver
has enough points to enter Indy?

Re: The just because I can category....
 

The divisional stuff is for me to play and grade up, the Nationals will be with a hired gun. Hes got entrys covered for that, later in the year I may try my hand at one or two, but Id rather see the car win than stroke my own ego. For me stroking my ego consists of being responsible for the package, we dont even care about a name for the car....or a paint scheme (The Drag Pak Challenger that is).....so......were looking at running a contest for that so its one less thing to concern ourselves with.

My schedule is all set for the year, we will be at every National event , its been scheduled :) I mean why not, how many chances in a lifetime are there to campaign a factory package car, sitting in my shop does it no good.

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Ok, I have been notified I have insulted some knowledgable people, and I do concur there are many on here with much more experience in Stock Eliminator.

What was said was

"My advice? Check your figure again,...post a retraction,..save face with this bunch..

You're insulting too many who know about this stuff. "

It was NEVER my intent to insult them although Im not sure how I did unless that is comprised as not taking what they say as gospel ? I do appreciate the advice and will follow some of it. But saying I can do something I know from past experience I can do, well if you dont believe that , thats fine.....I dont see it as an insult, and agreeing or disagreeing is not an insult in my book....

In as much as saving face, I dont live for others I live for myself. Sooo...I have no fear of looking like a complete ***.....and it does happen, I once helicoiled a head wrong when I was about 14 and running the engine on a 50/50 alky nitro mix managed to have it leave the head and put a hole through a guys door. Im not perfect I make lots of mistakes, I guess Im not afraid to make them, thats how I learn.

I DID have a miscalculation, on the factored HP, I looked at it 20 times, and for some reason had a brain fart. I can run 2 seconds and change under the new index for V , not W. That being said it is NOT a full 3 as I previously thought. So that would be the retraction.

I also know there ARE a lot of people on this site who DO very much know this stuff well......THAT was the whole purpose of the post. I posed several questions I was looking for answers and insight to other than my own. They were as follows.

A) Is there a market price to consider for selling it
Answer, since it appears that is a low price , making 30-40% profit on the Combo shouldnt be a problem.

B)What are some of the things to watch out for running it (other than geting HP and weight)
Answer, Its going to get added if I run it silly....no suprise there.

C) Is there a way to make a name in stockers by doing something like this ?
Answer, well yes since apparently noone thinks it can be done, if its successful then the answer is yes.

Do you think with the index changes there will be a thinking outside the norm ? And hence an opportunity ? or is it just going to be more of the same people trying to do the same things but somehow a bit better this time.......
Answer, It looks like many people will still do the same things hoping to go faster, and this will give me to opportunity to apply some of the things I know that car guys arent used to.

I got the answers to my questions, that was the REASON of ASKING them.

Thanks to everyone who helped and posted honest input. Seriously.

My decision has been made and call already gone out to find a nicer one than the one I can currently get, I will get the car, and I will build it.........If it is succesful as I belive it will be well that remains to be seen, but I will give it a try.

There is no way its as hairbrained as my last project an 800 horse TR7 , yeah 90 inch wheelbase....Chassis car....and I had a TON of fun building it even though I never ran it, It sold before I could....but well....this is pretty mild I think.....in the end thats what its all about isnt it ? The fun, the competition, the challenge ? Why else do it ?

Re: The just because I can category....
 

My schedule is all set for the year, we will be at every National event , its been scheduled :) I mean why not, how many chances in a lifetime are there to campaign a factory package car, sitting in my shop does it no good.[/QUOTE]

Well good luck on your project/projects...:rolleyes: Sounds like you are already "sportsman" of the year for 2010 (in your own mind, of course) :rolleyes:

Re: The just because I can category....
 

So I do...... I dont JUST talk about it I do it

125 posts since Sept 2009.It's a good thing you're a man of few words.
Could your killer car be a Smart car?That would be ironic considering you have the
mystic knowledge to go 3 sec. under for 7K.
Artie how's your old Caravan doing?

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Hmmm..well to be honest I dont know what "Sportsman of the Year" entainls, nor do I really care, not much for title and accolades.

Do they have a category for "Professional Dishpit and Screwoff" ? If so please feel free to nominate me.....

Cheers

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2657/...1f578fa627.jpg

Well good luck on your project/projects...:rolleyes: Sounds like you are already "sportsman" of the year for 2010 (in your own mind, of course) :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Man, I want some of whatever you been drinking ! I hope you do find something, that will run like you're saying ! You'll burn down the( Internet) house, if you can get it there.

Wait just a minute, have you found out where Painter keeps his 'shine ?

Re: The just because I can category....
 

Lol...dont drink...of the people that Ive talked to that have run that far under index and have in the last year, 2 say no problem with the combo Ive found and am talking about, another thinks close, even though before I gave him the details he too thought I was off my rocker...thats fine.

My heads got more cracks in it that the ceiling of the sistine chappel maybe thats it....

Re: The just because I can category....
 

[QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;158068]So I do...... I dont JUST talk about it I do it 125 posts since Sept 2009.It's a good thing you're a man of few words.
Could your killer car be a Smart car?That would be ironic considering you have the
mystic knowledge to go 3 sec. under for 7K.
QUOTE]

Ok, first what are you the post police....lol... ? Thats less than a 1 a day average. Dosent seem like a lot to me......oh well, I also type 140 wpm so whats next the lenght you will find eccesive ?

What is your motivation in posting your derision ? I always wonder on peoples motivations, mine in posting the original was simple get answers to the questions I posed, I did....So what is your motivation in saying something like "Could your killer car be a Smart car?That would be ironic considering you have the mystic knowledge to go 3 sec. under for 7K" Whats your motivation ? Just curious, maybe I misunderstood your tone, wouldnt be the first time.

As far as the "mystical combination" take all the classification guides, every year every maker, put it into Excel reline the columns, group the cars by combo, (and this was the issue in my previous calculation (dont forget to subgroup the S/SS factor for each) pivot the table and export it into Access, add a table for the class breaks and index, join the tables and run a custom report on it, then take that and look at the combos you know the engines WELL see if you see anything that looks wrong, then double check it by hand and see if what you think you find lines up to the real world, takes about 30 minutes if you know what you are doing longer if you dont, its not rocket science, its crunching data and looking for familiar points, maybe you dont see anything, I did....but then again Ive had my hand in a lot of strange engines ...... If there were more imports on there I would have even a better chance of finding something familiar......There is nothing "mystical about it" its simple, its underrated significantly and its scarce enough noone plays with it, but its cheap and they are out there.

Lets break it down, 2k for a base car, another 500 for .75 over pistons, another 800 to have the block sleeved for max overbore, another 500 for a custom cam grind with a nice fat duration, another 200 for some springs, another 1000 for a tranny rear end core, wheels and tires Ive already got, so no cost there, new valves to undercut, 500 in carb and ignition parts, and another 1000 for a nice set of "pipes" , paint , roughly 600 for the supplies to do a nice job. Another 400 for misc stuff that isnt lying around the shop and can be "scabbed" from another car....total parts cost 7k......I can do the coatings at the shop, so no cost there, I can do all the other work including backcutting valves and other machine work so no costing there.....

Like I explained to someone else, you mean to tell me you cant take a 2700cc (thats with the max overbore) ohc engine with 1.5+ rr and a 430 lift cam at 10:1 per the NHRA spec. Undercut the valve guides, bounce the balance shafts, backcut the valves, coat the cam, rockers, piston skirts, and valve stems (to full open, thats still legal) , open up all the tolerances to max across the board, and make it pull 220 + horse thats only 1.4 hp/ci, and I see a lot of other guys doing that without having the same advantages inherent to this motor, which will put this car into the 13's but for some reason you made a snap decision in your own mind it couldnt be done and decided to make a comment of unbelief ? Wow.....dosent seem like a far fetch to me.....whatever....

Like I said earlier I had a miscalc because of the grouping, I thought the car was a W, it can run V though, someone on here was nice enough to point that out.....so at mid 13 under the new indexes its a full 2 under, and that was my revised statment. 3 if it was a W but unfortunatley its not...even at 1/2 of that Ill get the combo in trouble. Nice that noone else is running it so I would only have my own feet to piss on, and that was another part of the allure to me.

If youre not able to do that drop me a line and Ill send you a copy of my spreadsheet and database, (youll have to write your own report as I usually just run raw sql queries and look at the data that way but its comfy for me) Ive got to regroup the S/SS factors but after that Id be happy to send you a copy.

Yeah Im one of the "Laptop Generation" so maybe its all greek to you, the data stuff, but for me as a Lead Technical Architect for the last 13 years its just normal, it numbers to be manipulated and analyzed, but that got boring and I had nothing more to prove there so I thought this would be fun full time.....it appears I am going to really love NHRA Class racing.....a lot of "interesting" people, and some very knowledgable people, a lot to learn, and a lot to show.......the other stuff I ran had a much smaller cross section of people.....this is going to be what it was intended to be...fun.

Cheers