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Bracket racing is what has hurt S/SS more than anything, that is all that plays on a weekly bases at local tracks and is full of young people on a Friday nite. How many people under the age of 25 run S/SS that their Dad is not involved? How many S/SS entrys now
are under 50yrs old? Years ago your Pros came from S/SS, now its SG and Super Comp.Will this truly become a HANDYCAP eliminator, or will the SSS's stand for Seniors?

Dale Shannon (old retired S/SS)

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Stk and SS will be gone when the last of the OLD GUYS passes away. The rule keeping and changes could be interpreted to Self Destruct the classes. Many refuse to see it. I believe because many are still owning a very expensive Great car they want to have fun with more times. If someone bought the car and trailer for appropriate price Many would probably be able to RETIRE from Class racing.... Hard to do But possible. When the last 55 chevy owner, Gta racer or Mustang driver decides to recognize the futility of hoping for reasonable rules or enforcement its DONE....
Most will hang on till then....

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What is going to happen when Biondo, DeFrank, Fletcher, and the rest get pummeled by the Ford CJ,and the DP Challenger in semi finals in a heads up run.
1. If these pros or anyone else with a carburetor runs against these cars they will lose.
2. The pros won't make any money.
3. Most if not all of of the the above will be on Social Security before the AHFS will get the correct factor on these "Factory Race Cars"

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No, I don't think bracket racing is the cause of the decline of Stock and Super Stock. Poor control of the classes by NHRA, and failure to promote them is the cause. That and a change in society, especially the younger segment. I don't think it is correct or fair to place the blame on bracket racing.

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Maybe they will get hired by Ford or Mopar to be hired guns to drive the new models.Then the factories will be assured of seeing their new vehicles in the winner's circle?

Just a thought......

P.S.

Bracket racing format is what has made SS/S as popular as it is.If it was all heads up,participation would drop by a HUGE amount!

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I love working on my car, as most do, and I love the heads-up portion of Stock and SS. Here is an observation: I woud guess that 99 percent of the talk on this site is about performance, rules and the competitiveness of different combinations, however, 95 percent of the racing we do is bracket racing.

For all the talk about the CJ, Challengers and other so-called out-of-line combos, how many people have lost a heads-up race to one of these cars? I bet the number is very few and the percentage is very low.

On the topic of value, we race beacuse we love racing and many of us have an emotional attachment to the cars we race. I doubt any car has been devalued by any other combination. I don't think there is a line of people waiting to buy fast Stocker, just becaue they "own" a class. And if that is your motivation, go build a car that is a winner out of the gate. It is done in NASCAR and other forms of motorsports.

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No car has been devalued by another combination. Only the obviously low hp factors ASSigned to other combinations.

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That is the gospel, absolutely true, well said Alan!!

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dial in racing has hurt drag racing whether we like to admit it or not. that and the cost. i remember when only class winners were allowed to run in eliminations with no breakout and there were more cars in a single class than there is at some div. now.some people went to several nats. without a chance to race sunday, but it was exciting. now, you have to bring a crowd with you just to have someone to show off to.

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Evan,
Should everyone wait until a racer with one of the older cars has to race one of the new under factored cars in the final of a national event with no chance to beat him before anything is said? They are not "so-called out of line combos", we all know how fast they are. And now we all know NHRA has changed the rules to protect the advantage these cars have. And yeah, I've seen a really fast 69 Camaro run one of the new Challengers heads up. Not only was it not even close, it wasn't even in the same zip code. So yeah, it has happened, and no it wasn't pretty, or fun.

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I guess every thread is going to end up on the subject of the CJ or the mopars why don't some of your guys just put the gun in you mouth and pull the trigger? I think the world is coming to a end.

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Randy, i have sent you a PM

Sean

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"Here is an observation: I woud guess that 99 percent of the talk on this site is about performance, rules and the competitiveness of different combinations, however, 95 percent of the racing we do is bracket racing."
Evan Smith quote

I would have never guessed I would read this on a "Class racer" message board.
Very well stated Evan although I believe your 95% should really be 99%. Stock and SS racers use more shoe polish than the average "bracket racer"........................

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Dale,

You might be an old retired S/SS racer, but you're still funny.

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Sorry Dale

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Watch that term "old". You are getting real close now. Especially from a Ford guy.

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Damn it Larry, you're always starting trouble. And now you got me in it. :D

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So how do you educate young racers about S/SS? If you have never been around S/SS it is very hard to understand, hell I've been around it for 40yrs maybe a few more and still don't get it sometimes. Are there any Stats for the avg. age of the diffent eliminators? (Joe)
Dale

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We are not ALL old guys!! I'm only 40. I actually think there are more younger guys out there now than when I was 30. I see grandkids of guys that raced back in the day out there now. I think the new cars will help generate interest in Stock and Super Stock. On the subject of the new cars, and being a Ford guy, the blown cars should be in their own class just like the AH cars. The natural aspirated cars will eventually get factored into the right classes at the right weights. Until then, we should work on our junk and race those guys as smart as we can. Maybe the guy in the new ride shouldn't know how much we have left until it is too late!

Blair Patrick
2425 SS/FA

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I got hooked on Stock and S/S in the late 60's and early 70's when I was in my teens. At that time it was a big deal to run a Stocker or Super Stocker - it was something to aspire to. These eliminators along w/ Modified and Comp got top billing at the tracks. But it's been almost 30 years since Stock and S/S were run on a weekly basis by any tracks. So it's no surprise that racers that came into the sport in the last 30 years didn't get hooked like I did. Most racers 35 or younger don't understand the "crazy" class car rules that seem so clear to us. These guys grew up on bracket racing and see an odd-ball "class car" once in a while bracket racing.

Solution? Chime in

In the meantime the regional Stock/Super Stock Associations help by showcasing the class cars at more tracks and in the presence of the bracket racers. And they keep us racing.

And - Evan - well said.

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Hey Blair good to here from ya, I think a lot of the new people you see out today are Drivers not owners, when the OLD owner is gone so goes the driver. Careful of what you wish for, if the new cars get different classes they may not need the old ones. Hope you have a happy holiday and good luck next year.
Dale

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When I was about 13 years old, Dale was getting ready for super stock class and a bunch of us were standing around. Dale rolled down the window of the super stocker and said " I'm going on up to liquor store...ya'll want anything". Then drove up to the lanes for class. I still laugh about that and I just turned 29. You need to get yourself a car again, Dale. Dad says hello!

Ryan Horensky

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There has always been a challenge for S/SS to attract new racers.Maybe more of the problem is the availabilty of such good aftermarket parts has shifted the idea of entry level and low budget away from a class that requires you to run the parts your car came with and toward classes that allow you to simply buy superior parts.You can spend well over 30 grand building even a modestly prepared 12 second class car,but you can run 10's in a street car for $20 grand or less.Fewer racers are taking interest in what it takes to actually build a fast car and more are interested in just getting their hands on something fast so they can get out there and drive.If the E.T and 90 classes disappeared tommorrow,the racers who run them would simply reorginize into a seperate venue.Big payout E.T. races have been attracting 90 class drivers away from divisional races for years,and NHRA or IHRA has no way to control that.Even racers who really want to explore the science of going fast are migrating toward fastest street car type racing.Why spend 100 grand on an 8 second SS car when for 60 or 70 grand you can be running 7's in an outlaw 10.5 or drag radial car?No sourcing for hard to find parts,or kissing up to the engine builder with the best program for your car,just pick a class and buy your bullet out of a book.

NHRA doesnt seem to do much of what the racers want anyhow.Since the no deep stage rule which basically made every slower class stocker seem like nobody cared about them to the current fiasco with late model factory race cars bombing the classes where racers with $100K cars cant even stand a chance in their own class.S/SS racers run class because they love doing it,but there is nothing any sanctioning body can do that will make E.T. racers change their opinion of it.

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:( I'm like Mike, I have been a lifelong fan of Stock and Super Stock since I started as a pit rat in SE Pennsylvania in the early seventies. To me bracket racing and class racing are apples and oranges. Who can squeeze the the most out of a combination within the narrow confines of the rules is class racing. Who can cram the largest amount of pneumatic and electronic crap into a race car is bracket racing. I'll be a footbraker till I die. Ever listen to some of these bracket guys? "Bumped down", "crossed over", "rolled in/out three..." They sound like they're trying to get the Shuttle programmed for reentry.

NHRA is not going to help you, except to continue to take your money. At least three times I've missed Stock or Super Stock because NHRA needed to accomodate the TV people, rescheduled and couldn't care less if spectators knew about it. You're gonna be replaced with Pro Mods, wheelie cars, nitro Harleys, jet cars, frisbee chasing dogs, and some kook on a motorcycle trying to bust his butt. They won't have to pay all those folks who track points, qualifying, teardown, tech, payout, parking etc. Why do you think they keep chipping sportsman eliminators out of national events?????????????

Now somebody help off this soapbox....(bad knees..):rolleyes:

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Mike,103 and dago I think were on the same page just so many don't understand the big change that is so near.

Ryan, hello and tell you dad I sad hello and I will call him sometime soon.

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Any of you guys been to a bracket race lately? Bracket racing is going down the same path. The Test and Tuners, Heads up racers, the Pinks crowd, the ADRL's and the like are whats really taking over.

I agree with Larry on his first post. I also think that cost has a lot to do with it. Face it guys
S/SS racing ain't cheap and unless you or someone in your family is an old "GEARHEAD" you are probly going to do something different.
Chip

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I agree Dale you need to get another car and come out and play with us guys. Just for the record, im 33 and been around s/ss all my life, love it wouldnt have it any other way. Sterling, how long ago was it i was wanting to help change the transmission in your car? Had to be what, 23-25 years ago??? The regular bracket racers dont understand s/ss because its alot easier to run the weekly program. Big tires in the back, little tires in the front...Maybe having more combo races at some of the local tracks will start to put some kind of interest back into it for the younger crowd...

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Duane hello I think your right it needs to be put it front of people besides at a nat. or pts. meet,some kind of a bi-weekly local race,use it as a test and tune everybody throw a few $ in the pot the track match it and go at it, do a track safety tech and police yourself.(or the other guy) that way I think a few more fans may understand it a little better.

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And now an opinion from a Bracket Racer who loves Stock and S/S but is becoming more and more disillusioned about the classes. My first Drag Race experience was at the age of 14 with a guy who ran a new 67 GTX in D/S. Yes, that means I'm now old! I bracket raced a bit over the years but always followed the classes. As it stands now, I can't find much "Stock" about stockers and suspect a new kid coming to the track wouldn't either. S/S get's me wound up and I even like the GT classes but draw the line at FWD conversion Comp cars being called Super Stockers. I also suspect a new person to the track wouldn't understand that either.

I've watched these classes go from balls out first to the finish cars the average person can relate to, become a game of who can manipulate their qualifying spot, hit the brakes, run to 1000', hide illegal modifications, get more and more non stock stuff approved, hide behind a soft index, complain about someone who get's you HP and on and on!! And some of you wonder why or where the new guys are going to come from. A victim of your own success comes to mind in that it's now just too expensive and too much trouble to the average guy. The sanctioning bodies are as much of the problem as anyone else but we'll all be dead and buried before they give a rat's A**

Before the shooting starts, I have everything I need to change my "bracket" car to a legal Stocker for less than $5000.00 worth of parts but can't see any reason why I'd want to. It wouldn't be a killer car but would qualify or I'd do whatever it took. I just have more fun racing with my stick shift friends.

The guy in the near lane is a Legal S/S Hemi stick car. I'm the lowley bracket racer in the far lane.............We both had fun!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/973-137_709593.htm

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Dale.....What fans? I havent seen anyone at MIR watching unless they are with a car (Family, crew, friends) unless its a friggin' monkey circus act. Even the IHRA points races dont have any spectators and the "Prez cup" so call National event is lack luster at best and what few do come to watch are there for the Top FOOLERS that usually keep the track from rusting !. Royce lost a ton of money (2 or 3 hundred thousand) at the last race. I go to several circut races that Dave Ley puts on and again.....zip for spectators. Even the Dutch Classic at Maple Grove only the most hard core spectator (notice I said spectator and not spectators) is there. The people in the stands are WITH someone racing with about 10 cars in the spectator parking lot. Very few even care anymore except us old "Gear Head" guys.

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This says it all................

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If you really want kids to get interested in Stock and SS then take your S/SS cars to the local track and run the local program! It won't kill you and might make you a better racer. Also, make yourself available to answer questions and maybe give a helping hand. Kids nowadays don't really want to get into rules but at least I've found that by BSing with them and trying to teach them a few things they are starting to understand and take a slight interest in what I'm doing.
Remember, we all started somewhere!

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Nice looking car great leave for the old mustang, parcel to thoses old fords, I think your 100% right it was a sport that was for fun, now most because of cost have to run it as a business, well good luck on that venture. Can anyone remember when NHRA moved most of the SS cars to COMP and the Stock cars to SS? Started over with Stock. Is time for something like that again?

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Great Post Billy I think that would make a world of diffence, because I think some of the class racers think they are a little above some of your local racers.

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Hey Billy,
Late 1970's, black 68 Mustang with my name on the door, regular at the Patch and E Town, hung with the Shadis boyz, left in 1980, been in SoCal since.
Just checking your memory..........................."We all started somewhere"
Charlie

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I remember you Charlie! Believe it or not your name has come up more than once lately as a friend of mine is doing a 94/95 Mustang and said that he "needs to get hold of that guy on the west coast".

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[QUOTE=Dale Shannon; because I think some of the class racers think they are a little above some of your local racers.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad that you said that Dale because I was thinking it!

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NHRA moved stock into superstock in the early 70's. Then a year or 2 later they started stock up again stock (not stocker) cam, stock exhaust manifolds, stock (not stocker) pistons, stock fuel pump, street legal tires, etc.
The racers pushed the envelope getting one thing changed at a time Till we wound up with what we have now. If the associations would have upheld the rules. It would have have a great inpact on the costs. Do you know any one that would be getting $5000 for a legal valve job?
I hate to say it but the racers themselves are as much to blame as the associations for the current condition.

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hey superstock dodge, i did not get any p.m. my address is ran.wilson @hotmail.com

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[QUOTE=art leong;158156]NHRA moved stock into superstock in the early 70's. Then a year or 2 later they started stock up again stock (not stocker) cam, stock exhaust manifolds, stock (not stocker) pistons, stock fuel pump, street legal tires, etc.

Hey Dale, Art, Maybe it's time for NHRA to look at what they did in 1972 (?) and really "shake the cage" again!