Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

I figured some of you would have some experience with this....and well its as off the wall as it gets...

This is curiosity question nothing more, something I have wondered about for years and have been familiar with since I was about 14, I know some of the donwsides of this tranny, Ive got 2 in my shop, NHRA would probably have a stroke if they saw one again...and I cant see how its not legal, directly the closest I get is
"

Lockup
converter permitted if OEM-equipped with lockup converter and

OEM transmission is used.
"
Nowhere does it actually say in Stock a torque converter is required. Im talking about the old clutchflites, I picked up a couple about 2 years ago when I went to the "Geezers" reuinion with the old man who had pulled em from a FED, and they were complete and functional. Id been looking for one for years and couldnt pass up 2. They were nice conversions, not the B&M template and cut a hole in your bell conversions, but nice done for an aftermarket bell housing, I was going to put one in my 49 plymouth Business coupe and hang on to the other for some other strange project or another my mind will someday come up with.

I dig em, always have, they were one of those "mechanical curiousites" that fascinates me and the history behind it, and was thinking the next logical step is a computer controlled clutch activation on one, not hard to do, combination hydraulic lock and release.

I dont like automatics, I dont work on them, I dont understand the right approach to their modification, they rob power blah blah blah....the torque converter is the biggest mystery to me, I understand the principals but I dont like something I cannot service or modify....seems like voddoo to me. And the vendors play that card...not all but some.

So with a clutched automatic, well....I can change my launch speed at any time, thus an almost infinatley adjustable stall.....let the pedal out. Let it shift for me.

I THOUGHT these were legislated out , but maybe it was just an effect of converter technology surpassing the once (and brief) use of these.....like I said I can nowhere specifically see in the rules where its disallowed, but that also dosent mean squat.

There is a company that still makes them with the GM (The original "Hydro Clutch" was that the name and fords was "Clutch-O-Matic" is this correct ?

I have over the years collected anything I can get my hand on for them....pump drive spiders etc. I was thinking of eliminating that on as its a weakpoint and using an external pump...but thats not the point.

Are they in some strange way still legal ? They were built by the Major Manufacturers for a brief period for competiton use, all 3......

Just curiousity.....and boredom...Im tired of trimming carpet and my mind wanders.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

Where they would get you is the clutchflites had the front of the cases taken off. I don't think you can modify the case. With todays converters I don't think the clutchflite would be much help.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

On the ones I had thats true, B&M made a "kit" that had a template for the fork you cut out of the housing :) the original units from a PM I just got had an integral bellhousing too....

The thing I think is nifty and always had is the infinite varaince over a torque converter....anyone make a user variable torque converter thats up for the Stock/SuperStock realm ? Most specifically finding the REAL sweet spot instead of with this converter I run X that one Y.....

Not thinking of doing it in stock...god no....just curious if it was actually legislated out or just became obsolete.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

There is a company that still makes the stuff. The good stuff was made by Winters, I think they sold their tooling to Maverick.

It is in no way shape or form legal for Stock or Super Stock, regardless of whether you claim automatic or manual.

One of the last people to campaign one successfully was the late great Ronnie Duke. The Duke Brothers ran a Clutch Turbo in Super Gas for about 15 years. It eventually kills the input shaft and the forward clutch drum. I built their transmissions until they switched to a Lenco. That car one a ton of races, track championships, and was in the hunt for national championships on a regular basis. But they worked on it constantly.

If you could get someone to make you a steel forward input drum, machined to take the new killer input shaft spline used in the 1000HP automatics, and then get someone to make you an input shaft from 4340 torsional steel, you might get one to last a lot longer.

They are violent, the shifts are absolutely brutal at any speed, at any throttle input. They are tricky to use, maintain, and set up. Aligning the bellhousing is even more critical than the trickest manual box and clutch.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

Yeah, Ive been in contact with them over the years.....no 727 runs though only the TH400 setups :( and they are a few pieces shy of a full 727 kit from old stock.

Thats excellent, I was told by the seller a friend of my dads, "When you set this thing up give me a call and Ill come over and show you how, its a bitch" Ill take it from your post his fear is not an understatment, he had it on an alky 392 FED.......His card is on my dresser for just that occasion :) The use in the 49 plymouth will be nifty, straight axle car (now) and with the 60 in the arse should be a lot of fun, kinda like driving a 10 second FexEx truck. But now that I actually after nearly 10 years of TRULY hunting have my hands on 2 good units, Im shy to actually use them for fear of breaking them.

Ive met about 3 other people in person in my life that actually knew , and i mean really knew about them, I started thinking, all the veteran racers here might have some input....thanks !

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

Again, what breaks is the drum, and the input shaft. You might get Strange or Mark Williams to make you some shafts, if you give them a good one to work from. The drums are just stock drums. The hard part to replace would be the "butterfly" pump drive. You'd have to have a mold made, or get one digitized and CNC it from a billet.

I have a complete Clutch Turbo set up but it is damaged. The adapter has had some threads pulled out, and the input shaft is bent and twisted. I can fix the adapter, but I'd have to buy a shaft. If I ever fool with it, I'll have a drum and shaft made the way I stated in the previous post.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

A buddy of mine used to run a B&M ClutchFlite in his 340 powered 70 Duster. It was formally in a local A/GS 33 Willys with a 392 Hemi. With the sintered iron clutch disc, it was very abrupt, and hard on rearends. As mentioned, getting everything correctly aligned was a royal pain. He eventually sold the ClutchFlite, in favor of a normal 727 Torqueflite with a torque convertor. I think the original attraction of the ClutchFlite faded with the later advent of 4500+ stall speed convertors, and trans brakes.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

Really it was the Lenco that killed them. They were mostly a Gas, Funny Car, Altered, or even dragster unit. The first ones were "clutch hydros" based on the old hydramatic. Once the Lenco appeared, the clutch automatics began to fade rapidly from the scene.

I remember Ronnie sold one of his to a kid with a "pro street" pick up truck. He brought it in to be freshened up, and wanted the kid to see exactly what he got. Ronnie warned him "let them take the manual valve body and the hard shifting stuff out, you won't be able to stand it". The kid wanted it the other way, "how hard can you make it shift? I want it ALL!". Hehe, he wanted it all alright, for about a week. Then he wanted to put it all back stock except the clutch turbo part.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

Yeah Ive got about 4 or 5 broken "pump spiders" ive accumulated over the years to one day do just that have one made, I have 2 good ones now on the trannys I have and 2 spares....but theyre like hens teeth obviously.

What crossed my mind was eliminate the whole spider issue with an external pump.....me an hydraulics are kinda like scooby doo and proper english, but ? Well....Ive heard of people running external pump drives, or my mind wandered as usual and I thought of the EARLY 727's with dual pumps 1 front 1 rear. Didnt know if they could be converted to run rear only hence the spider became a non issue.

Just a thought....to eliminate like you said one of the main weak points....I never even got to the point of thinking of how to keep em from coming unglued, just keep em going...lol....but I could see with some of the newer shafts it might be possible.

On an early 727 with the dual pumps is that feasible to run the rear only ? Youre probably familiar with them.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

The rear pump only works when the vehicle is moving, so running the rear pump only won't work.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

I can't remember the guys name that ran it orginally but there was a B/FX car called the RoadRunner. I think it was a 65 Dodge with a 383 Hemi and a ClutchFlite.

I saw the car at Ted DeTar's shop in 1966. If I remember correctly (and that could go either way), the transmission used something like a power steering pump run off the engine in lieu of pumps in the transmission.

Bill

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

Thats right, I forgot.....yep....no go there, duh...hmmm oh well, someone else mentioned a PS Pump which I had seen on something else, but I was always unsure of volume and pressure its not exactly like its the intended use.....seemed like a bit of an odd hack even for me, then again it may be just fine, or maybe something industrial/trucking would suffice.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

You need approximately 300 psi to make it really work, because you need to have more than enough pressure to make the pressure regulator work all the time. You do not need a lot of volume, since you are not filling the converter constantly, what you are doing is cooling the internals (but most of the heat comes from the converter, which you no longer have) applying the clutches and bands, and lubricating what moves.

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

I used to have a B&M clutchflite the bell was sawed off similar to the way you do for ultra bells now had adapter that went on pump to hook to scatter shield.I think with clutch setups we have know would be easier on parts.You couldn't keep parts in Nashes with clutch setups that about everyone ran back then and I say clutches that didn't slip broke alot of clutchflites also.Years ago we thought if the clutch slipped any that was bad LOL. You put clutches like that in front of strongest trans you can buy today it will break. I think a good soft clutch setup would really benifit a clutch automatic,clutch sliding on gear changes would really smooth gear changes.I don't think there's any advantage with clutch auto anymore ,but todays technology applied to trans and clutch would be big improvements,and they would be fun,and different.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Ok....just curious...Clutchflites....
 

From my memory NHRA outlawed "clutched" automatic trans because of the severe and uncontrollable explosions of the transmissions when they were being used in the early model "funny cars"....they were being used behind engines that were progressively getting higher outputs (more nitro and bigger blowers).....they were attractive for these applications because you could drop the hammer at any rpm point and not really worry about missing a shift as long as it didn't blow up....there wasn't any type of ballistic materials or shields to protect the driver or fans from the shrapnel.....the most violent trans explosions I've ever seen were from clutched auto transmissions, one even blowing most of the tranny's internal parts and most of the case through the interior and out through the roof of the doorslammer.....I am sure that if you call tech they will tell you not to even think about showing up with one of those in any vehicle for competition.....

D L Rambo