Just an idea to combine classes.
 

I've been reading some recent post about Top Stock and got started thinking (usually bad thing). Maybe it's time to "shake the cage" a bit and think about going to 2 pound class breaks. Leave AA alone at the top and go to 8.00 to 9.99, 10.00 to 11.99 etc. Keep sticks and autos seperate. Also, no class adjustments up or down just top of natural class.
That should make things interesting! I know it would hurt everything I own but WTF.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

If I had posted that Id have to change my name and move out of the country.....lol.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Billy -- Good morning and Happy New Year -- as soon as I'm done typing this I'll be sure to call Sunny and bitch her out as there is no doubt she forgot to remind you to take your meds this morning ..................

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

I think that the first step should be to combine sticks and autos.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

I absolutely DISagree with that! Keep things as diverse as possible.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Bill how about going to 1lbs weight breaks first....? I'm not sure why we have 1/2lb breaks anyway. The FI classes were 1bl breaks.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Just looking for a civil discussion and thought I'd throw that out there seeing as some like the Top Stock idea drawn out through the whole eliminator. It would definitely increase the "performance" aspect of the eliminator. I doubt if it would help at all with the "contingency" issue.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Billy,

How come you wouldn't want to combine sticks and autos? There are so few sticks that even if there are some fast ones it wouldn't cause a problem with someone "owning" a class. Look at Nitro's stats, by percentage, it looks as if there is between 1-8 percent sticks depending on the class.

While I like the heads-up stuff, unless NHRA sweetens the reward for going fast (points and/or improved contingency program) there is no reason to "force" more heads-up competition by combining any classes.

Evan

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Does that mean I would get to run twice as many drivers heads-up in the eliminator with my three under car? I know..... work on it, spend more money etc. I don't see more folks comming into the sport with less chance of winning. It takes a while to learn how to go fast, unless your falling in behind daddy. I think this would be a good thing for the old guys that have paid their dues, and learned how to go fast. It sounds like your trying to thicken the classes up a little. Making it harder for a guy to navigate the eliminator, because of the fast car heads-up advantage, will discourage and cause them to leave. And your back to the same thing again, only worse. Bring more people into the sport to reduce the singles for class win. What fun is it being fast, if there is no one to race? I say bring more folks into the sport, by making it a little easier, not harded! The fast guys can still beat up on the new boys and girls for class LOL.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Evan, I'm just doing a little bit of personal fact finding. I agree that NHRA should "sweeten" the rewards no matter what and I'm sorry to have to think that won't happen.
I wouldn't want to see the classes combined for the simple fact that; 1. I think doing that would hurt the stick numbers even more and; 2. If the number of classes were lessened but kept seperate (stick and auto) I think you would probably see a resurgence in the sticks.
Prozac is a wonderful thing.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Billy - If you're gong to do that, then class should be contested at every event (even divisionals and opens) and ONLY class winners can run the eliminator!

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

I don't ever see that happening.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

sounds like a good idea. I'll put one of the new 428" small block crate motors in my car.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Billy, Good Thoughts. I agree with X-Tech When I discussed this type of thing it was threatening. But it could be best for all parties in the long run. NHRA needs to make it worth while to run fast. Points for class wins, Points for Records, that affect a HP of a combination then pushing it to Win class would be some gain.
Sticks + Auto , GT and SS together with wt break for SS car against GT chassis 50 lb light?
With having more class racing more often possible by having more of a certain class at events NHRA could have class which would be meaningful not Bye Runs for trophy taking a 1/2 day of event time.
I honestly think some Manufacturers could be coaxed to pay class more often if there were only 1/2 the classes to pay or fewer..
For those slower in a class there is still eliminator if you run Quick enough to Qualify so you only have More runs at the meet with class to run too.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Billy As you can plainly see there is no way of changing this without severly hurting someone.
Why do some people think if the number of classes are cut that payout will go up?

PS I have a bridge for sale. Only Slightly Used.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Dick,

MOST racers could give less than a S**T if they get points for anything. In case you hadn't noticed, there aren't a whole lot of people contending for points Nationally or at the Division level. Billy posted a reasonable thought that may be a little off to some, but then you went ahead in your usual way and made a complete cluster out of it.

Let's not combine Sticks & Autos. There are lots of classes where because of low counts in the class, the STICK guys have never found it necessary to buy THE GOOD STUFF to go fast. If they do, you'll see the STICK advantage show up in many more classes. Remember, there are some high HP Stick cars now running radials, so there goes that perceived advantage for the autos.

It ain't broke folks. If you want to hurry the demise of Stock/SS to the point that only the elite can play, go ahead and combine a bunch of classes. When you reach the point where only a few feel it is worth it to play, you'll have completed the demise of the whole class system. NHRA will just say GOODBYE!

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

JRyan,
It is interesting someone always comes up with a point of fear that no one will be able to play if the classes were combined, no one would come to race, No new racers would build cars.
You and others act as if Combining classes is an Alternative to Eliminations. If you fall in a class with 10 cars tomorrow intead of 2 cars today , no one says you are not elgible for eliminations if you qualify JUST LIKE TODAY. But NHRA has a car count showing up at meets with greater numbers of same class to make the "show".(Fewer BYE run classes)
Making Class racing a bigger part of the racing can just give more fun as TOP/STK, TOP/SS do. Most who ran this declare it to be " the most fun I have had in years"
It is Just combined classes and stick and Auto HEADS up. An example of Combined classes for more "racing"
My opinion from Being in Bigger classes all my life and organizing TOP/STK and TOP/SS in Div 3 . It may return when larger numbers of cars to fit are available.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Dick how are your car counts lately?
How do you think they will be when the Cobra Jets and the Challengers take over?

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

That should make for some exciting and close Heads Up races that the fans would go wild over!

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

If this happened their wouldn't be one stick car at the racetrack.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Why do you say that?
I race an automatic trans equipped car,but I still shift manually.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Leave the stick and auto thing along folks!!!! Some people still like to "drive" there cars!!!!

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Case in point: A.H. Adkins has a SS/C '69 AMX and lives in West Virginia, races both NHRA & IHRA. IHRA came out with a "Top SS" program combining A-B-C classes into a common SS/B weight. Adkins liked the idea, rebuilt his chassis to be better and lighter and now competes in the IHRA class and also NHRA SS/B. I see from the Nitro Joe stats he's the second slowest NHRA SS/B car. Damned if he doesn't love it! And he's moving forward with more improvements. Says he hasn't been challenged to this degree in years.

SStock1373 says:
Originally Posted by GUMP
I think that the first step should be to combine sticks and autos.

If this happened their wouldn't be one stick car at the racetrack.

Oh I don't know if that's true. Myself, I would love to race against all the SS/HA cars (and there's some seriously fast cars in that class). As most of us probably had a street race or two in our life before sanctioned drag racing, I can't remember any street racer, myself included, who ran from a race over the opponents transmission!

What really irks me is the difference in indexes between the stick and auto classes! :mad: Worst yet a conversation between an official and a stick racer; the official refused to believe there were index differences between them! :eek:

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Oh, now that really cracks me up! :rolleyes: That reminded me of when i was looking at one of the first brand new 2008 Challenger SRT8's to hit the showroom floor and i just couldn't bring myself to buy it because it was an automatic (unfortunately all the 2008's were) and the salesman asked me why i wasn't going to sign the papers and drive it away? I said it's an automatic, i will wait and order a 2009 with a stick. He said "well, this has the (autostick) in it and you can manually shift it without the hassle of a clutch. Wether it's a muscle car or drag car, that clutch pedal does make a difference...:cool:

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Jeff I live not far from "Gus" & have been watching him run that AMX cents 1985! It was a SS/C car back then & to see it in SS/B was a big surprise! Now I know " the rest of the story" ;)

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

IHRA never had a Top S/S class. It was Top STOCK with the A, B, C cars and unfortuneatly the crate motor combos included. Dave Ley ran a top S/S deal in Div. 1 NHRA at the Dutch a couple of years ago.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

X-Tech,
We ran TOP/SS in Division 3 for 2 years. Due to the dilution of cars into many classes only a few higher class cars were available but we had some 6-8 car races that were really Great. Indy first year national open 8 cars. Tony Depillo, Gus, John Nemeth, Kenny Schindler,Eddie Smith, Brandon Wilkenson , Ray Paquet, and one time Brian Oakes even came for the races and Won Both TOP/SS and TOP/STK. ALL the people who ran felt it was the best thing they had done for some time. Stephan Johnson, Dave Thomas, Bucky Hess Jim Pancake and Charlie Westcott even came for a meet and supported the race. Many others competed on a one or two race basis.
It is an example of how condensing classes gives an option for Class racing without eliminating the Sunday Eliminator program...EVERYONE has a
program they enjoy.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Since I posted this I've had suggestions to check my meds, leave the country(thanks for the tip Terry but I have BIG guns), combine sticks and autos and go to 1 pound breaks.
Well thanks all for responding but it was a bit of a trick. Although the debate is fun during the nonracing months, lots of people shared opinions but NOBODY did any math! It's not practical! If we had 2 pound breaks the weight swings would be so ridiculous most cars wouldn't be able to make weight.
Realistically, the only way to combine classes would be 1 pound breaks or combine sticks and autos.
I do like the idea of going back to only being able to run natural class though.
This is a test! Do the math.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Didn't have to do any math. Thought it was an obvious and foregone conclusion. It's as ridiculous as the 6 pound break my front driver has to deal with.

Been saying that for years.

Conceptually good, but some of the HP factors have been moved so much that it can be virtually impossible for some combinations to get anywhere near weight.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Yes...I know you had it in Div 3 but the post was about IHRA having a Top S/S catagory which they never had.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

No offence. But 6 to 8 car fields sound a lot like the sport compact races (that everybody on here hated). That died a agonizing death. Slowly dropping car counts to 3 or 4.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

True,
Small Field or Real Muscle cars not Rice Burning buzzing motors. We are victims of the Massive class numbers diluting the racers into Great cars that represent one car per class in many meets. The fact we got 6-8 using ballast or removing ballast was great considering that fact. Besides where could you earn 500$ to 1500$ for 3 runs besides TOP/SS or TOP/STK in Div 3? If the classes were condensed Multiple groups of 6-8could run like we did in JR/STK also. Even Better with fewer classes there would be naturally MORE per class showing up which Could run TOP type classes or just their own class at National Events.
I'll Take Tony Depillo's Honkin Hemi in a 8 car field over FWD Rice burners any day.
Wait till this year when Dallas Kelly returns to SS with his T-Bolt Totally upgraded to 2010 Technology as a SS/A or B and Paul Adams SS/B and Ray Paquet SS/B. Several Corvettes and one or two newer B cars from Chrysler and we have an Attraction again...
We may just try TOP/SS again.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

A half a day? Not even half an hour, even at Indy.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Dick you just don't get it your poll failed miserably. 95 % of the people on here don't see things the way you do, and never will.
You can like the muscle cars better. I do to. But face it we are a minority. There are a lot more young people out there with EVO's SRT 4's, Honda's Etc, Than there are people who like old cars. Like it or not that is reality.
We should be happy with what we have. It isn't perfect but it's not broke either.
If you know a track operator thats thinks a 6 or 8 car top SS field will fill their stands. Please send them to me I have some bargain bridges I just might let them have cheap.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

ART , You right No track could attract a show with 6-8 cars. I think thats what happened in the 60s when ACE WILSON or BILL JENKINS came to a local track to race the local cars and guys showed up because the track ADVERTISED the race. If more cars were around and sponsors could be rounded up and guys showed up who knows how it works... My personal feeling is that if I came from 400 miles to run class I still would rather race class for 3 or 4 rounds than get a BYE into eliminator. Could nt there be BOTH kinds of racing at NHRA events, might it encourage working on the cars to run fast? (Sell Parts) (attract Sponsors) be more interesting to spectators and racers. (JOG the AHFS faster)
Maybe we should ask guys why they like watching ss/HA or GT/AA or.... where there are 6 or 8 heavy hitters from across the country. Class Racing Heads up can be part of the show without excluding anyone but adding a series of possible Positive affects
As for the Poll only 16 or so answered out of how many? Also poll addressed Points for records and winning so Class racer mentality could earn more point too instead of only Bracket mentality earning.

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What on earth makes you think that everyone magically would work on their cars and make them go faster. Don't you realize it's about money. Hard work will only get you so far
Why don't you go over to the comp forums. And listen to what real competition is all about
That is what you are trying to turn stock and superstock into If you race a higher class car right now you need 2 wheel barrows of money to be competitive. Do you want everyone to spend $100,000. That is exactly what would happen if you got your way.

Re: Just an idea to combine classes.
 

Art, It might just be about money NOW in SS. All the newer SS cars are 80,000 + in GT without a motor. If the money issue is your concern, How does the fact you have the "option " to spend more to run faster or work harder to run faster affect the Sunday Eliminations part of the program? People can only spend so much money to have fun racing. That is a 100% truth. With people going 1.40 under without working on the cars in solo classes so they can run on Sunday in the Bracket program why would they worry about how much others WANT to spend to be No. 1? Do you think people enjoy being in a class for bye runs to get a trophy? Without the sponsor money to go with it is there a reason to even HAVE class? If we just kept the rules on tech and allowed any car to run in eliminator wouldnt that just be an expensive BRACKET race? Why not allow those who WANT to win class by racing someone spend what they want. Why not enhance the chance of Classes being bigger by condensing them? No offense but how would it affect your program of racing? There ARE people who are not on this site and some who are who WANT to go fast and Want to beat people for a trophy and the Pride of accomplishment , not just show up sunday and run eliminations...

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There are only 3 cars in the country in my class. But you can help me out. Why don't you build a car for my class?
If I win a trohpy on a single who are you to tell me it doesn't mean anything
I've qualified number 1 with every car I've raced. So don't tell me I don't work hard.

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Wow! sorry you take this discussion so personally. You should be proud to be capable of running #1. You have chosen a good combination.. You are entitled to be pleased with getting a trophy for attending in your class. With consolidation maybe someone could be at the same events you attend too.
My history is somewhat different. I have about 40 Class trophies and One Points meet Trophy. I have been in the top 5 in Div 3 points several times only based on eliminator points. One of my class trophies is for a bye run. It looks the same but it is not as sweet.
One year I won my Class over a minimum of 4 cars at 6 events including Indy and Gainesville. Once we towed back to Gainesville after a rain out to win class after narrowing the class from over 10 cars. Same type of cars , heavily factored and Excellent racers from both Coasts. Actually several record holders. My Point is there are TWO points of view on what Racing at a NHRA event is about. Bracket racing or Class racing . I feel Strongly both can and should remain equally important . If someone choses one area so be it. The fact no one shows in a class indicates maybe there are too many classes to populate with racers. If Drag racing in Stk and SS started with classes as the form of racing and Dial in was developed to allow handicaping of Class Winners Both should remain important forms of our "SHOW"
Thanks
Dick

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Dick face the facts we don't have a show. If you barred all the racers and crew from the stands. There would be nobody to watch even The Hemi Shootout.
We are our own show. Most spectators want Fuel Cars only.
I've got an idea you would like "if no cars show up in a class get rid of the class" Who cares about the other cars at the other end of the country. Let them go out and buy a more popular combo, or quit. This way there will be more for the cars that remain and they can spend more money to get away with stuff that isn't in the rule book.
Then NHRA can just give up trying to teardown cars, and get rid of the remaining cars, they can all go .90 racing.
Will you be statisfied then?