We're Evolving!
 

Heck, just last night I grew a third arm out of my chest and my wheezie fell off! Now I should be able to get half again as much work done on my car and not have to spend nearly as much money on other things!
But seriously, Evan Smith posted an excellent reply on another thread about how Stock has been "evolving" through the years and the subject seems worth (to me) discussing.
It is obvious that NHRA has (through want or need) been scaleing back it's Tech Dept. and it's policing and interpretation of it's rules has become less and less soooooo what will Stock Eliminator eventually "evolve" into?
Please, no arguing and no personal agendas just your own personal thoughts on where we're headed.
I honestly do believe that we will wind up being a "9"tire, flat hood" catagory given all of the cutbacks in tech and the way the rules have become "liberalized" over the last 30 years. Kind of a "Make it look Stock and put a crate motor in it" Bracket eliminator. Or we will wind up being an eliminator with maybe a dozen approved combos (dare I say "crate motors?) that NHRA can police.
Just my thoughts and opinions. Put on your thinking caps boys!
Also, there are some very smart people on this forum and it seems to me that the same half a dozen people are the only ones posting. Now does that mean the others don't care, aren't as smart as I give them credit for being or are too smart to be posting on this forum?!?

Re: We're Evolving!
 

One good move that the NHRA has made in the new rule book is the runner C. C. rule for stock. It at least gives a little hope that it won't go over to crate motors.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Billy, first off I'll say thank you for all your recent posts - it's putting some life back in this board...along with Evan's excellent replies. Even though I have yet to hit the track in Stock (this year, God willing) I have some thoughts on this topic of evolution. I consider myself to be part of the "we need more tech" crowd; I'm curious as to the mindset of the current crop of class racers... i.e. what percent want more tech, less tech, etc. My hunch is that most racers would be in favor of more stringent enforcement of our rules, and even-handed application of them across the board. That being said, we all know NHRA doesn't appear to be heading in that direction - whether it's a financial reason or otherwise. So - what could those of us that care about these classes do to further our agenda as far as tech goes? All we usually hear is, "These classes are dead, NHRA is killing us off, I quit, etc." Well, the way I see it is, if enough people are dedicated to this sickness, then we should be able to do something to preserve it and not just let everything "happen" to us. How bout some positive ideas...whether it involves NHRA or not. I know organizing racers is like herding cats, but throwing your hands up is chicken dookie if you ask me. I'll start....what if we really got behind AHRA? I know there are a thousand negatives, but it's essentially a clean slate - racer friendly, same rules as NHRA, not run by bean counting A-holes. Let 'er rip! Flame ON!

Re: We're Evolving!
 

One thing you can bet on, even if it would get down to only two approved combo's, there will still be people complaining that the guys with the "other combo" will have a soft HP rating and will have an unfair advantage.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Problem is....unless it has to do with NHRA most on here dont give a rats butt. You know as well as I do the purse could be a $1,000,000 and there are guys who wouldnt run anything else but NHRA if it was in their back yard because of their ego's.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

OK, so how can we force a change in NHRA? NOTE: The question is NOT, "Why will NHRA never change?" :rolleyes:

Re: We're Evolving!
 

About two years ago when there was talk of a 'for profit' corporation buying the professional side of the NHRA only and not the sportsman side, it seemed to everyone that would be a terrible thing. In retrospect, it probably would have been a good thing.

Let's face it, the only thing the professional and the sportsman drag racers have in common is the venue. The race track. Other than that, our interests are different. We' re not doing this for a living (well, the most of us), We're doing it for fun.

Maybe if the two had been seperated, and the sportsman side remained 'not for profit', still belonging to it's members, we could control our own destiny.

That's why I believe sports national events are much more fun for a sportsman racer than national events where we suck hind teat.

We could still have Indy as the premier event. Just a different weekend.

I never could understand how our organization got sold out from under us. Instead of the organization being our adversary, it should represent the wants of the majority.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Guys! Come on, we've only had 6 replies and we're already O/T to NHRA sucks and his d**k is bigger than mine!
I think that topics like this can be important! Did I say that? Woah!
Come on Terry? Where are we going ? Let's hear some real opinions about where our sport might be heading in the future. Come on, you smart guys out there! Don't make me call you out!
BTW, if you can measure your d**k by the horsepower you're making, I've got the smallest d**k out there so don't be shy.
(no offense to anyone named D**k!)

Re: We're Evolving!
 

from my side of the fence ,there is going to be a time where it will become just a flat hood 9" tire class,,the ecoonmy in the state thats its in,people loosing jobs on a daily basis ,people will have to scale back and racing is luxury for most of us and the car counts will be down ,pay outs will be lower than they already are,nhra will have no choice but to consolidate classes ,they guys running divisionals can run fast as they want ,i havent seen tear downs at divisionals(to much going on),there enough of us out there stock/super stock guys to have our own events (we do with associations but not nhra) but in todays world that will never happen,but i cant see it going a way completely ,i walk around the pits and see some of the innovation,dedication,compasion that is put to each car to get as much out of it as possible its just amazing ,,,is nhra bad ,i dont think so ,its just like any thing else in life when thing are rolling along and demand is up you build up to meet demand,now its more bussiness than doing whats best for the racers,,, a major shake up good or bad would be good ,this way the decision is clear gmonde

Re: We're Evolving!
 

I think the really smart folks sit back and watch all the thrashing about for their own amusement......or they're working on their stuff?

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Bobby Z hit it right on, best thing that could have happened. Before long everyone will be running Nostalgia Drags with different groups or Orgs. Look a NMCA, any mod as long as it looks original, hell half the mopars dont even run the correct hood scoop and tech......".looks good to me "

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Bob, If only there were rules and specs to Nostalgia so it werent all Dial In but I understand . It is hard to police and hard to justify the costs today...

Re: We're Evolving!
 

I believe that the ultimate goal is to have a 1-2 day race with a limited field. I see only 16-32 cars that are on a invitaion list. You qualify for the list based on how you do at the divisionals etc. A large entry fee, with a so-so payout.

Yes I believe that SS will eventually be turned into a ci/pd description with a spec carb. For example your car came with a 283 so you fit into a ci/pd that fits your weight break. You can have any heads and a spec carb. Then teck would have nothing to do but pump it and check the carb/weight/gas and they are done.

Yes I believe that Stock will gradually turn into a 9" Super Stock class. Roller rockers everyone allowed solid roller cams with the stock lift. We do not know what they have in store. But, I have been around this for years and if there are several different ways that NHRA can go on a decision, there decision will typically be the least logical one and one that usually costs the most.

When a rule is changed to "enhance" it opens up other doors that effect other things. If the rule on the lifters would have been lets say 120pds seat pressure checked on the car for all cars then you would not have the lifters, cams and valve train expense we have and the power that comes with it, then the extra HP we earn on our combo.....NHRA wants us and needs us to fill in some and to receive our money. There is no one in the high ups of NHRA who is/was a racer so they have no idea what it takes to race.

I love to race and the challenge of making my combo better. I have only raced at Divisionals and other meets and not Nationals. I can not easily get 5 days off to race a event or leave on a Wed just to get a parking spot at a divisional and more that 1 time run.

If NHRA would let there Divisional tech directors make there decisions and stand by them while having every division communicate with the other divisions it would help alot. If NHRA would just be consistent with there rules that would help alone.

I believe that the sportsman classes could be marketed in such a way that it would be very inviting to companies of all kinds. Thus helping NHRA and in turn help the racers.

Sorry Billy I got a little off subject...............

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Billy Billy. Your third arm is probably a combo of hair and your meds. And as far as vthe Wheezie goes, What is the air temperature there? (wait till it warms up a little). LOL LOL

Down here my season begins in one month and I've got to do some work on the car. So I don't have time for these What If!!!! Lets do That, stuff.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

What do I think? I believe Robert Simpson's post is not far off of what could be in the not so distant future. Less tech problems for the associations is a sure bet. The HP game is a joke and requires to much man power to keep up with even though there are some who would do it for nothing if allowed. As for tech (tear downs) the Marty Barretts and Greg X;s are long gone. No one wants to do it anymore or has the knowledge to keep up with it only to be over ruled. Limited fields most likely to shorten the number of days at the track and the number of hours to put on a circus like show. It may not come in a year or two but its coming like it or not. I will think more about this and post when I can be more sure of what Im saying.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Bob I got one of all the hoods

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Billy, I just looked in my crystal ball (the one I used to predict the exact index hits), and well, I don't want to get your thread deleted or moved to the lounge, but let me say this:

I think we have a lot more to worry about in the next ten years, than what Stock Eliminator
evolves into.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

(Billy, I just looked in my crystal ball (the one I used to predict the exact index hits), and well, I don't want to get your thread deleted or moved to the lounge, but let me say this:

I think we have a lot more to worry about in the next ten years, than what Stock Eliminator
evolves into.)

AMEN

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Mark, where do you think we heading in the next ten years?
Think the economy is going to tank even harder than it already is? what could be the next big thing to prop up the economy? Can't be the housing industry.....going to have be some tech thing...

NHRA stock eliminator, who knows what is store for that, It will probably evolve into a high dollar, limited field deal......

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Seems to me that since you can move "up or down" one class from your natural class that 33% of classes could eliminated with the stroke of a pen.....my thinking may be flawed or not logical but, if all the class structures, schedules, tech, horsepower, etc,etc,etc, were logical these concerns and discussions wouldn't happen.....we would just show up and "run what we brung".....

I can see the future being no tech for legality only for safety, class structure "index only"...1/4 second indexes (no dial ins and a 50 to 75 percent reduction in number of classes which gives you a LOT more heads up runs)....this makes everyone competitive, a good chance for big car counts more sponsor interest and bigger paydays.....the diversity of vehicles would be greater....I can picture this turning into an event with 200,300,400 entrants easily....a side program for like classed legal stockers and super stockers could be run heads up for the ones that are there during qualifying and they could be combined into the index eliminator once it begins.....

I don't have the connections or money to do it myself or I would be doing more than working it out on paper

I have my stocker almost done and I would prefer to run others in my "natural class" but I have a stronger urge to COMPETE....when I am ready just tell me where and when and I will be there and I KNOW that I am not the only one that feels this way.....


D L Rambo....

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Embrace the changes or move on. I predict a new "Pro - Stock" is on the horizon as soon as there is enough cars to fill the field. My 2cents.
Mike Szczepanski

Re: We're Evolving!
 

I'm afraid to say I'm think along the same lines.

Mark, I wasn't bringing into the equation National politics! Throw that in and we may not last 5 years!

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Six months ago, I heard a rumor at the Sonoma National. I posted on this forum what I had heard and was laughed at and told never to repeat those types on rumors without real proof.
I think I will try this again........................."NHRA is strongly considering a S/SS combo with a qualified field of xxx amount". That really does not sound to far out of line based on the latest changes from Glendora.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Maybe there is something else the sanctioning bodies are looking at when it comes to class racing. The real Stock/SS tech guys are all getting older, as in old enough to start retiring from tech. Like the country music song goes...

"Who's gonna fill their shoes?"

Re: We're Evolving!
 

If they retire, most of them won't do it because of age............................................... ..

Re: We're Evolving!
 

dinosaurs probably thought they were evolving too...then ooops ice age = extinct :(

billy i cant see where its going, were flying too fast with no-one at the controls who knows how to steer this rocketship...to see the future from where im sitting (in a 60 chevy wagon)

i can see where im going... i see a future of rod runs, and beer drinking events, some nostaglia races ( i really liked the goodguys shows) for my "prostock 60 chevy wagon"

i could not have imagined running 13.60's with this thing in 1980 when i built it for $2500, the index was 14.67 (T/SA) and we were a stought combo at 14.80...i shifted it at 5400 (with the new 1960 car with spring dampners), and carried 3-4 10 bolt posi's & axles in my truck.

now ive got bulletproof 12 bolt, spool & axles & other stuff, shift at 7000 (damn carb still cuts her off) have unlimited valve springs & duration, hockey pucks on my lifters, im .070 over forged, i got trick pulleys & pumps, brakes that weigh ounces, enhanced cast iron, fuel cell and SHAAZAAM my index is now 14.85 and guess what me and everyone else can go -1.00... i think it all happened while i wasnt paying attention ???

anyway i would only miss my friends ive made in 30+ years of racing if i quit.. and id miss the cajunsportsnationals the only race ive had real fun at in years... i dont think id miss NHRA one bit... and if they still run combos around my parts (plenty nowadays) i can still get out and play with my toy every now and then.

im freshening up my stuff for the last go around and i promised myself i wont build another NHRA stocker motor.

that is where i see the future... maybe evan and charlie bob see it different, theyre kids.

jack mccarthy

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Mike, are you talking e.f.i. Pro-Stockers? WJ

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Nope. I think as the new models start to pour in with all their celebrity drivers, NHRA may see the need to showcase them and all the other stockers will have less interest to them. I know that I no longer own a stocker and should stay out of the conversation, but a part of me really misses what Stock could have been as to compared to where it's going. The loss of the Sportsman Advisory Committee was enough proof to me that NHRA doesn't care.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Billy: You know I have been around awhile and cannot believe what has happened to this sport. The biggest rush was having a national record holder car. Now it is running 1.40 under and maybe never pulling a head.With current economic challenges I believe you are going to evovle into S/SS combo races where there is no heads up confrontation dial under your index or go home. The fans are filling the stands for going Pink they have no idea if the car is turbo , nitrous . It looks like there family driver to them and it is fast.
Take a look at the pits at the next national event and realize that the tow rigs alone could finance a third world country and you think NHRA is going to reduce entry fees or increase payouts. I can see that when designing your next stocker make it fast enough to run pro at your local track. We have a class here at our 1/8 track 7.50 pro tree $50. entry $800. to win every week. DD

Re: We're Evolving!
 

lots of good points on here....I'm bringing my Stock entry back out because I love the class, always have. It's slow, but I love to compete and have fun trying to go fast with it. That being said, I have no idea where the class may be headed....and that fact, along with the various ideas on this thread, seem to indicate that no clear direction exists. NHRA has a huge need for improvement in their marketing of the sport....(example - NASCAR)...for them to take that step, I'm not sure where the Stock class will end up. I can see an 'invitation only' program coming....

Re: We're Evolving!
 

There are aspects of motorsports evolution that are beyond the control of the sanctioning bodies, but should not be ignored. For example:

1) Today's 20 year old tech school student is learning on DOHC four and six cylinder engines, with electronic engine management, dual stage injectors, direct port injection (coming soon), variable cam timing, and of course, turbo and superchargers.
Comp eliminator has already begun to embrace the newer designs. Dave Ring's altered has a Chevy Eco-Tec style 4 cyl, the Aragona's have been using DOHC Mopar/Mitsubishi type engines for a few years, and I hear Toyota engines will debut with at least one D-1 team in 2010. The days of the F/ED with a Pontiac block and a splayed valve Chevy head appear to be numbered.

2) The small block Chevy will go the way of the flathead Ford. Overhead valve V8's were in mass-produced cars by around 1949, and the last NHRA national event won by a flathead was 1963. Land speed racing still has a handful of diehard flathead racers, but they are the exception. The SBC will endure a bit longer thanks to bracket racing, but the writing is clearly on the wall.
Already the LS-1 is widely accepted for hot rods and other projects that don't dictate the type of engine to be used. Scarcity and expense will phase out the SBC more and more. The SBC was the most common- other brands will diminish sooner. Who races an authentic Hemi Cuda anymore? How many Ford 427 wedges use original heads? How many 427 wedges period? 428's? 413's?

3) Used cars with carburetors are no longer on the street, and they are becoming expensive. If I had not already had a 69 Camaro that was in the garage for decades, I certainly wouldn't have paid for a first generation Camaro body for a stocker project. A '93 Camaro or Mustang body can be bought for under $1000, maybe even with a rebuildable engine in it. Of course, ten years from now, 2003 models will be dirt cheap. Time marches on.


Adding all varieties of late model cars to the existing framework of rules would seem to be a tech-inspection nightmare. For now, S/SS has more participation than most other non-professional motorsports categories, so its short term survival is assured. But if you're serious about remaining viable as something other than a nostalgia series for more than another 5 years or so, it might pay to look at how another form of racing is doing it.

The SCCA has a category called Touring, which is very similar to Stock Elim. While far from perfect, they have decent participation, in spite of not offering any prize money (winner gets a new set of tires from Hoosier). The T-1 class has the modern supercars- Ferrari, Viper, Corvette. By its nature, road racing has to be heads up, so they use factoring by means of added weight for the super-light Ferrari, bigger brakes for others, or in the case of the C5 Corvette, aftermarket headers (the other cars must use factory exhaust manifolds).
The T-2 class successfully combines BMW's and Camaros with Saturn Vue (ie real-world hot rods). It goes down the line with T-3 to ordinary sedans from Honda, VW and Toyota..

They have the same arguments about factoring and fairness that NHRA has. Meaningful tech enforcement is just as challenging. It's just that they have found a way to include new and old, fast and slow, expensive and cheap, and yet there are fewer classes overall.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Good post Tony. I think that as an eliminator it is probably getting to be time to maybe have history repeat itself and somehow "evolve" Stockers into SS and start with a clean sheet in Stock.
(Did I just say that?)
It would definitely involve some "juggling" though. Moving classes around to fit Stockers into SS would be quite a feat.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Tony,
Actually, the Knight brothers still race a REAL R code Hemi 'Cuda in Stock in Division 3, Bowling Green is pretty much their home track. And the two fastest Chevrolet Stock Eliminator cars both still run original era cast iron heads.

The small block Chevy has already been out of production in cars for longer than the flat head Ford was when it won its last NHRA event, and the small block Chevy is just about as strong as it has ever been in the sportsman ranks. There were a lot more small block Chevy engines built, over a lot longer period of time than the flat head Ford. Further, the factory still supports the small block Chevy. And so does the aftermarket, in a manner far more massive and complete than they ever did for the flat head Ford.

Sure, DOHC 4 valve engines and EFI are common place now. But neither are new technology. EFI is at least 40 years old. And aircraft engines designed some 80 years ago were DOHC 4 valve engines with fuel injection. Not all new technology always moves down to grass roots racing. The complexity and expense of DOHC 4 valve stuff turns at least 5 times as many people OFF as it turns on.

It isn't that Stock needs a "tiered" system. Stock just needs to stick to the original intent that it was intended for purely production cars off the showroom floor and the "tuner" cars, "builder" cars, and "export" versions go straight to some sort of Super Stock class where they belong. There's a place for the production showroom Challengers, and even the production showroom DOHC 4 valve Mustangs in Stock. They belong in Stock. The "package" race cars do not belong in Stock.

The "package" cars are not the problem, they're a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the massive disconnect between the people that control the sanctioning bodies an the people who are dues paying members of the sanctioning bodies.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Billy,
"Evolving" the current Stock Eliminators cars into Super Stock not only is not really feasible, but it is something directly contrary to what NHRA wants to do. It would involved creating a ton of new classes in Super Stock (about the last thing NHRA would want) and recreating Stock (again, far more effort, time, and expense than NHRA would be willing to expend).

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Billy,

I am not sure where we will end up, but may I make 2 points.

1 - Don't blame the NHRA/IHRA with the evolution, the majority of the time the rule changes come from racers trying to get that little advantage and then asking the associations to legalize it. Larger rocker studs, ceramic lifters,aftermarket superceded heads, aftermarket stick trans. ,non original automatics(200's and 904's),just a small sampling. So next time you are lobbying for a new widgit to be legalized, think about it !!

2 - There ain't going to be more policing, the associations want to steamline the operations with less manpower. So don't dream up things that take more man hours. Some of the ideas I see and hear may be good ones, but the reality is they are not going to happen. My suggestion is less classes, come'on guys and gals we don't need all these classes. I suggest 1lb breaks and combine sticks and auto's for openers in the more populated classes. Yes, that will bring more heads up races and that is fine by me, that will make the ahfs work better, and add more excitement and appeal to stock eliminator .

PS Billy, I was shoveling snow this morning and I found your "Wheezie", should i keep it in the freezer and give it to you at Atco ? I think balloon boy dropped it as he flew over. and by the way , I lost and arm recently, you gots it ?

Re: We're Evolving!
 

I agree.

Here's the problem. The kids coming up today either have no automobile knowledge and don't care to or the first thing they add to their new car is a huge stereo. They are more interested in driving around town with a trash can muffler than actually racing the car.

But ,if you could generate the interest in racing then it would be best to have them run in a Pure Stock Front Wheel Drive eliminator with the only change being the exhaust cat back system. This might generate new blood into the sport.

The draw back is that now HRA inspectors will have twice as much work and in policing and the cost will probably be prohibitive to the sanctioning body.

Just grasping at straws,

JimR

Re: We're Evolving!
 

The easiest way to restore Stock to "the way it was" would be something I talked to a friend about about a year ago (and something I doubt NHRA/IHRA would be in favor of). Re-name the current Super Stock Eliminator as a new Modified Eliminator. Rename the current Stock Eliminator as the new Super Stock. Re-create Stock, along the lines of IHRA Pure Stock, as far as engine rules, and actually enforce them. Real teardowns, and more of them, enforce the rules, allow the tech men to do their job, and stiffer penalties for blatent cheating. I seriously doubt any of it will happen. Neither Association (NHRA/IHRA) can/will take the necesary steps to take care of Class Racing now, let alone take steps to do so in a more thorough way.

As for the original question, where are we going as an eliminator, who knows. We've obviously, over the past 20 or so years have been slowly degenerating away from the original intent of Stock, for better (safety, wheelie bars, fuel cells) or worse (engine rules, relacement parts, some so-called paper cars, etc). The Indexes may be a step in the right direction, to add more of the performance back into S/SS. The AHFS, in it's current state, is at best, a total mess and will never work. Despite some people's requests, running S/SS off the records, or off the Index CIC-style like Comp will be the DEATH of modern Class Racing, as was shown eleven years ago in Division 1. Yet, despite the seemingly doom-and-gloom scenarios, S/SS seems to be alive, well and thriving, as you can tell by the number of entrants this past season during uncertain economic times. Other than the current AHFS format, I'd like to see NHRA leave stuff alone for a year or two, instead of some major rule change(s) that seem to happen every year, almost none of which were for the better.

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Dick,

NSS rules are NOT dial in, all classes run off indexes, if you run under the index you're out, run to slow and get beat. The indexes are run at 1/2 second intervals and you build your car to match the index.

There are NO electronics allowed, foot brake only.

And ....it's fun!

JimR

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Jim
Even worse. We ran that way off dial in set at NOON in heat and raced at 2:00 AM with 1000 better Air..Several Years. We considered it miserable.. Then air stations and dial every run was better, still Dial In racing.... If you run at 10.50 against another 10.50 are you heads up or no break out?
Isnt that like running a S/G car and a S/C or ST car on dial in?

Re: We're Evolving!
 

Dick,

When you tech your car in you must declare your index, after that you cannot change it....if it's 11.50 then that's what you run off the entire race. If you go faster then you lose. If you run someone in the same class (index) it's heads up, break out and you lose, first to the stripe wins....no leeway.

Think of super gas with different indexes 10, 10.50, 11...etc but with no electronics. Run too fast and break out, too slow and lose and the cars must look the same as when raced in the '60's and '70's with few exceptions like the AFX classes.

If you google NMCA they have the rules and their schedule and I believe their first race is in Bradenton, go watch and talk to some of the guys, it's a good time.

JimR