How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Ok, dont get riled because I dont know jack...

But Ive read all the reasons of doom and gloom for an arena Im just starting to race in....to me, an outsider, and a business owner....heres how I see "the bright" side of things.....

So.....I just want to share it, I have heard from others they feel the same, but havent read (much) of that here.

I am going to offend some, because I "dont know" what I am talking about. BUT What I am is a) Younger than most here b)may have a fresh (naieve) perspective c) am bored outta my mind sitting here in this damm room.

Ok Challengers and their Ford Counterpart have been illed as the "doom" of stock eliminator.

But heres how I see it .....corp interest == Money, Money=Promotion, Promotion=Fans, Fans=Money and round and round....greed drives companys and orginizations for the most part simple, the question is how to benefit from their greed and participate

Newer cars = newer / younger fans
Newer technology = more vendor development, more interest and sales for the vendors of the newer technologies.
Newer technology draws new builders and tuners who are more familiar with the newer packges.
More Vendor development = New racing tech , bigger "edges"
The cycles could go on.

Someone mentioned how the 428 was last made in 70, do you think a 30 year old can relate or cares ? To me its like a flathead ford, cool and all but not my first choice for a rod, and I cant apply squat to my daily driver anymore.

So, the options to attract new racers are to "hope" that younger people find something in the classification guides that is interesting to them in an antique sort of way, or something "newer" that slipped in underrated and unexploited.

How many stockers that "disagree" with this own/drive cars they were at least 14 when the car was built ? Why then look to your birthdate, predate that by say 10 years and look at the cars, can you say WOW Id love to race any/all of them against what I am running.....no......dosent make sense....in some cases that PREWAR stuff or damm early postwar.b It dosent make sense to you, why should it make sense to the younger set ?

Combos SB , BB, FE and On have been wrung out to death and back, there , now MOST are out of production....what and how much NEW can the vendors possibly do for them ? How many "new' revisions of a Powerglide can be profitable for them ? I suppose a few.....but then what ? The next logical step in a timeline would be all the "failed" engine designs of the mid 80-90's all small displacment 4 and 6 cylinders....wo, exciting.

So....let see we get Ford and Mopar sinking money in programs, maybe GM will or wont follow...but then we get vendors promoting all kinds of things for them, pushing the NHRA for more prime time for them....on and on....you have big guns coming INTO stock for the first time in years.....Garlits outta retirment, Coughnlin running again, Maybe Johnson running...and there are quite a few more on the list not public who are / were monster racers...so the exposure goes up....

I dont like Force, its something I saw him do once, but thats neither here nor there, he is a publicity hound. If Stock got enough exposure hell I bet hed consider it....not saying he will....but why is Coughlin in Stock again ? (lot of things Ive heard)

Stock with MORE factory participation could explode again, and GO somewhere....."those Funny cars".....hmmmm....

When I say stock is becoming a "Vintage" class, look at the year breakdown and percentages of cars by year...the 80's and 90's except a few odds are a detriot wasteland....so go back to the 60's-70's where most younger guys cant relate, or move forward.

The Challenger the one everyone buys with a tune and a CAI, and NOTHING more is a mid 12 second car 5.7 or 6.1....in Stock legal trim who knows, the VVT has even more potential....out of the box at 25 mpg, Mustangs well Im not familiar so I cant comment, but Im gonna guess I can go plunk 30k down and walk outta the dealer with just as minimal work can be maybe even faster.

Maybe its my deranged mind, Im thrilled to be coming into Stock Eliminator at this point....I think its cool, I have absolutley no interest in running a 1988 Cutlass Ciera, or 92 Lumina, cars from when I was in High School...so what are my options ? Run something legally classified as an "Antique" or something new...?

Guys complain about turbos, they complain about fuel injection, they are going to really compalin about variable valve timing, direct injection is going to give everyone a stroke, and on....cars are moving forward, FAST. The things of even 5 years ago are going POOF in a static sense, cars are moving forward in leaps of advancement they havent since the late 30's then later in the mid-late 50's the rest was just more of the same (from a mechanical standpoint)

I think with , Factory, Vendor, Racer, and Fan "interest" IF it can be mustered Stock may not be the same as it has been forever but something good and new will come out of it, if it dosent it will fail and disolve, they dont want to let that happen IF there is an oppotunity to be had.

If the NHRA was "SMART" they would PLAN its evolution to repeat past success of the 60's , take something that worked once and DUPLICATE the events surrounding it..

Just some bored thoughts , I think this is COOL, and Im happy to be coming in to it at this point.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

great grand and wonderful if you can afford a new factory hot rod. I still say they are the ruination of Stock and SS

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

The new cars are great if you have about 100k doing nothing, but the poor SOB with all his money tied up in an older car just took a big hit to the wallet and it doesn't matter how hard he works or how much money he spends he will never compete against those new cars because they are grossly under rated, And that is a fact!!!!!

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

$100,000 + CARS ARE GOING TO "SAVE" STOCK ?
He's joking ........right ???

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I do 100% understand, the same thing happened to ME in bikes....and well .... the Vintage classes were created and it was actually more fun and I became more competitive again, I couldnt compete even with a 78-9 "Works" bike factory racer with the new iron....not after the late 90's no way suspensions were way too advanced, then they started "nixing" the 2 strokes in the late 80's early 90's from RR anyway.

Youre right it "hurts the wallet" , and more...its an admission to ones self WE are getting old, not to mention the sweat equity and all the other "love" but face it, some things time gas come...my TZ250's time came....my RZ350's time came...(actually still a screamer but banned across many fields now, and kinda a death trap because of power to suspension)

Ok....but you dont NEED a "Package" car, maybe a DIFFERENT car than you currently have but not 100k either, a 15k 2006 up say SRT8 car, or some of the reasonably priced dime a dozen Fords and Chevy's have mega potential. Hell were thinking of fielding an "street" SRT8 car we have that can be "Stock Elim" spec for under 10k thats straight rear, new brakes, new rubber/wheels, and a cage and connectors, should run in the mid 10's with only a cam change headers and some FI work. Hell its stock internals now and its close, and heavy... Im only familiar with the newer Dodges so I cant comment on other "flavors" but there HAVE to be competitive cars across GM and Ford.

And heres kinda the point I was trying to make, but NEVER got there...
Are the new cars underated....YES..
Is there MORE potential YES....how much can you do to a SBC ? Ok a lot but what NEW can you do ? Not much. Noone has even explored some of the new engines....so even when their rating gets up its far from the end of the road for them, instead more and more will be pulled, and for a longer period of time, starting NOW....Like VVT....thats gonna be FUN.....same with Direct Injection, hell some of the GM's are running it "staged" with Normal injectors....I mean how much potential with a long duration cam ? wow....

You dont NEED a Package car....but something that can benefit from the vendor development that will be seen in that direction, and not a 100k piece, a 20k piece...that has loads of underfactor to begin with but more long term (long term from now forward) potential than a package thats been wrung out for 40 years !

How many other types of racing even have cars 20 years old that are still competitive ?

Adapt and survive, or stagnate and die.....seems simple to me. As much as I tried to resist it in bikes it came and went without a blink....but I survived and prospered because of it. The last 3 years in bikes I was doing exclusivley vintage GP and Formula engines....(formula bike) I was making a killing, its still my "backup" plan for money...lol...but I think the NEW stuff will pan out better, Im getting calls like crazy from everywhere, my answer for now is wait until after Gainesville and lets SEE where we are...you may not want me buidling your lawnmower, but if some of these items wring out like we think (even 1/2 of what we think) Im set......

Not from other Drag racers...from street fighters, from bracket bombers who want to drive their car...but their interest will pay for mine like it always has if I can carve a niche, that niche is in the newer stuff as I see it.....

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

drooze, are you the wrench ,driver or P.R.guy, or "D" all the above just curious?

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I've kept my mouth shut long enough..................
"save" stock??................. Please! Doubt it!!

Yanno, it's not for me to say how someone should spend their $$ for entertaining themselves............. that's their Choice & to each their own!!

BUT, ... my ONLY peeve is that NOT ONE of these new "package" rides have, or even COULD be driven home from the showroom floor!!!!!! Why, at least the "paper cars" of the not too distant past could have been driven to the grocery store to buy some milk for momma!!!!!!!! How then can these cars be "categorized" as STOCK?? In MY mind, "stock" will ALWAYS mean "something you could go down to the neighborhood dealership, plop down some cash, (earned or inherited, WHO CARES!?!?) & drive home a vehicle you might be racing next week".

Granted, it undoubtedly will do the sport "good medicine" to get new blood, more cars, etc to show up. Even to get some current pro's, ex-pro's, ex-champs back into the action will be a definite PLUS. Once ya get paired up, I really don't care "WHO" is in the other lane, BUT, if "Big" does beat me.......................... at least it'll be a race I'll probably remember.
OK, I am done.............. Thanks fer listening!!
See some of ya in the spring................. Hopefully!!

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Ding ding ding we have a winner, your right these cars are no different than the 68 hemi cars that went straight to super stock, and also they have a list of engines you can pick from that were never offered in any over the show room car, it's called crate motor over in ihra land, get the hp closer and sell them as street cars then race in stock!!

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

This "DRIZZEL" guy MUST be on drugs or smoking something.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Drooze, I have no problem with new cars coming into the eliminator. Will they "save" the eliminator? No, and it doesn't need to be saved. Will they "help" the eliminator? That depends on how long the factories will bankroll them and how long the "celebs" will hang around. Can they "hurt" the eliminator? Definitely. How? IMHO whenever somebody dumps big money into a sport it "raises the bar" for all concerned (you can't argue with that). Most competitors will "ante up" and continue, some will leave and some that may want to play are now locked out. That is part of life it happens every day. So what is the problem? When the big money somebody gets their budget cut or redirected or just plain decides to "buy a boat" then they are gone faster then they came. Now they've increased the price of participating for eveyone else concerned, chased some away and retired some and they're gone. Let's add to the fact they've also left a hand full (in the grand scheme) of "mongrel" (neat but mongrel) cars that will probably need special attention from tech (special exceptions, superceded stuff) over time to keep them running.
Again, I haveno problem with new cars but these aren't STOCK cars. Period.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Well you get it...abeit dont "agree" ... the Package cars will be soon "rated" where they will....maybe in the long run its their own class, dosent matter.

What does matter is the factory interest, and the interest from the public at large, Ford and Mopar are and will be building that. THATS where the bang is. they arent going to sink in a ton of money only to not exploit the press, with that comes interest.

Its not the ACTUAL package cars themselves that are so good for stock, its what they represent, they will land where they land AA only or later SS....simple the interem may be a bit rough for others like the next year bit

You said what the real point is yourself
"Granted, it undoubtedly will do the sport "good medicine" to get new blood, more cars, etc to show up. Even to get some current pro's, ex-pro's, ex-champs back into the action will be a definite PLUS.:

The new iron is good for everyone EXCEPT the people with the old iron.

Im 38 and if you told me I would get to race or even have the potential opportunity to race "Big Daddy" in my lifetime 2 years ago Ida said you had a screw loose, on to Couglin, same thing, on to some of the others...yeah right...but thats exactly what happened and is happening.

The rules will put the cars where they should be. The cars themselves are not the point, the interest they generate from BOTH the Public and the Corporate side is....and they are doing that job well. That was the whole point from Ma Mopar and Fords perspective.....BUT its brought more attention to "Stock Eliminator" than anything else in the last say 5 years.

Can you say the "Joe Public" Dodge or Ford buyer even looked to NHRA Stock Eliminiator, until these cars ?

In recent years say the last 10, what other single event, or happening has raised awarness of Stock Eliminator to the public at large as much as these pacakge cars ? Google, Drag Pak , Super Cobra Jet, etc and see where the articles are....everywhere......not just National Dragster.....everywhere from Car and Driver to well....look at there some of the articles are

If nothing else look at the package cars is they have a "Job to do" when thats done HP will be up...

Were actually looking at upping the HP factor intentionally on the Challenger (we have a plan on that) Other Challenger owners might not like that but it has potential to be very effective for us....that should make everyone else happy too :)

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

[QUOTE=drooze;161826]Well you get it...abeit dont "agree" ... the Package cars will be soon "rated" where they will....maybe in the long run its their own class, dosent matter.

Don't hold your breath waiting.



What does matter is the factory interest, and the interest from the public at large, Ford and Mopar are and will be building that. THATS where the bang is. they arent going to sink in a ton of money only to not exploit the press, with that comes interest.

And they could build more interest and get more goodwill by giving each returning Veteran a new Mustang or Challenger!



Its not the ACTUAL package cars themselves that are so good for stock, its what they represent, they will land where they land AA only or later SS....simple the interem may be a bit rough for others like the next year bit

They represent Stock Eliminator mongrels because they're not STOCK!



You said what the real point is yourself
"Granted, it undoubtedly will do the sport "good medicine" to get new blood, more cars, etc to show up. Even to get some current pro's, ex-pro's, ex-champs back into the action will be a definite PLUS.:

Sure, in Super Stock where they belong!



The new iron is good for everyone EXCEPT the people with the old iron.

I don't see how!




Im 38 and if you told me I would get to race or even have the potential opportunity to race "Big Daddy" in my lifetime 2 years ago Ida said you had a screw loose, on to Couglin, same thing, on to some of the others...yeah right...but thats exactly what happened and is happening.

I feel the same way but I might just as well race against Bigs TF car or Jeggies PSer.




Can you say the "Joe Public" Dodge or Ford buyer even looked to NHRA Stock Eliminiator, until these cars ?

You've apparently never been to a National Event and been around the staging lanes when the pairings for 1st round are being set up!



In recent years say the last 10, what other single event, or happening has raised awarness of Stock Eliminator to the public at large as much as these pacakge cars ? Google, Drag Pak , Super Cobra Jet, etc and see where the articles are....everywhere......not just National Dragster.....everywhere from Car and Driver to well....look at there some of the articles are

Oh maybe the headsup final at Pomona featuring 2 real cars and 2 class act guys.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

No, drooze, the new factory cars will not soon be correctly factored. In case you have not figured it out, the reason the indexes were lowered, the AHFS was altered, and the AHFS was removed from the control of people who know Stock and Super Stock, is to protect the new soft factors. Even if all of the above had NOT been done, the new cars wouldn't be correctly factored for 4-5 years at best.

The new factory cars have been here for a year already. How much "awesome, incredible, extra exposure" have they brought to Stock and Super Stock? Damned little, if any. And they won't bring any more exposure this year, either. Because NHRA doesn't care about exposure for Stock and Super Stock.

The only thing that can bring Stock and Super Stock back to their former glory is to have the right people involved in managing and promoting the classes. That will not happen so long as the current people control NHRA, and so long as NHRA exerts the majority of control over Stock and Super Stock.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

This must have been the mentality approx. 40 yrs. ago when NHRA ruled that "only 1960 and newer cars" can run stock. My '57 Chevy was immediatly worthless as a stocker. Fortunately, stockers weren't that radical back then and could still be turned back into street cars.

I feel sorry for the guys with $50,000+ stockers that will find themselves uncompetetive now after years and $ flogging their combination.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

The Package cars should have been direct to Super Stock ala the Hemi cars.

You want to talk about 'factories promoting to the masses'? Really? I'd be embarrassed to advertise that my big $$$ supercharged purpose-built race-only car put out 435HP. If it's a street-legal car they're trying to sell, they'd advertise that it makes 700HP!

The factories could just as easily promote factory-backed teams of the 2009, 2010 street-legal, readily available cars built up as Stock eliminator cars and generate more interest among the general public because the technology upgrades etc that come with it would actually have some bearing on cars that the general public could buy. Look at what Mopar Performance did with their truck program in the late '90s.

Short version: yes, factory support and new cars are important -- standard production cars, not package cars. I'm a Mopar guy and I'm more interested in what a production Challenger would do in Stock than a package car Challenger. I already have a Crate Motor car, and it's more of a Stocker than a package car (not to mention some other "traditional" Stockers, sadly).

$.02,

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

oh and one more thing Drooze, the car I drive is 9 years older than I am. Yes its dad's but if i had my choice right now, I'd have a 66 Chevy II. There are plenty of late model stockers, and i have no problem with EFI cars, but these package cars are BS.

With the economy the way it is, neither dad or I can spend the money to build a new car. Its just not in the cards right now. So we are probably going to build a small block. Oh well, whatever we have to do to keep racing. Dad's car has been a big block stocker/superstocker since 1970, and NHRA and the factories made it obsolete with a stroke of a pen. I hate what NHRA and those in charge have done to stock eliminator, i have no respect for those responsible for the decision. I also have no respect for anyone who takes any pride in beating a REAL stocker with one of these cars.

I AM one of the younger guys (32), and if this is the future of Stock and Superstock, I may just go do something else.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Amen Chad,
I too am a younger guy (27) my superstocker was built when I was three and the stocker I'm building was 12 years old before I was born. Also my weekend street car was 19 years old before I was born. In my opinion nothing is better then Old Iron. Especially the 63-65 B bodies.
I did try to buy Bret Veldes 04 Cobra because it was a steal and a beautiful car but I was a couple hours late to get it. However that car you could buy at your local Ford dealer and drive it home. I like the new Package cars but, also think they should have been superstockers. Save the showroom available cars for stock.
My .02 if it's worth that.

Rick

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I somewhat disagree with the notion that "younger guys" have no interest.
I believe some underestimate the interest they have in the 60's and 70's cars. They actually are very knowledgable about these cars and get very excited when they see them.

Also, I believe that is exactly what they are trying to create with the new production versions of the Challenger, Camaro and Mustang...."The excitement". However, try as you might, you will never capture the excitment the production cars from the 60's and 70's have because it is part of our history and history of drag racing. That's why many fans young and old go to see drag racing. It's to see these incredible cars from the 60's & 70's race.


There are those that seek change and that has it's place, but you know how the saying goes: "Be carefull what you ask for".

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Ok points taken...

I see here no end to the compalints that things are "doomed" they way they are and this that and the other bad about Stock Eliminator.

I see how this could be a "shot in the arm" I do see how you say it could hurt also.

I am a big fan of the Lightweights and AFX cars,,,,,guys had to say the same thing when they were introduced....what happened ? It evolved, it evolved in 2 directions, the breaking out of the AFX into what became the funny car , hence the quote about "those funny cars" who was it that said that again ? :)

If youre saying it dosent need saved, Ill buy that you know your stuff, many others here seem to knell its gloom and doom and how noone cares.

If Dodge produces the 1320 for the public at large how will you feel then ? The SCJ's damm near can be bought asis at a dealer (the SC cousin) and the Chal SRT8..but I understand

People compain about the cost of these cars....but the truth is the SCJ "ready to race" is 72, not 100k....the Challenger is 37k and some change, it CAN be finished for another 10 if you do the work...in my math that does NOT equal 100k...I know 2 DP owners who are doing just that, own cage etc....so just because someone decides to spend as much as they do , dosent make these 100k cars....We WALKED into a dealer down the road and ordered it....simple...that simple...A Challenger SRT8 is 50....so the same price almost...how much is a new GT500 ? I dont even know. And then these , some of these are the same people who may very well have an additional 30 in their car that had an original list of say 10k (at the TOP) soooo...inflation sucks...no doubt have you looked at the prices of anything...uggghhh....

Others said they "wouldnt bet" the cars will be rated be high soon, and how the index adjustments are done in favor of these cars....the rules I cant comment on I dont have enough knowledge....What I DO know is we plan to run the car to the limit factors be dammed....maybe that will make them happy. I cant depend on some "super secret Challneger DP society" to all get together and under a blood oath commit to run the cars under X....so....simple I have to eliminate that from my strategy and had to come up with an alternate strategy that wasnt dependent on that, part of that involves running the car to its full potential. Itll probably piss DP owners off, and for that Im sorry, most are damm nice guys, but I have to worry about our competitive stance , not theirs.

I just look at what the first round of "Factory Specials" "Lightweights" and "AFX" cars did for Drag Racing, I sure dont think they had a negative influence on the sport, quite to the contrary....if its history repeating itself lets hope the outcome is as good.

I dont think anyone who loves drag racing can say it would have been better if the "AFX, Lightweights and Factory Specials" would have never existed.....that seems odd they would fight something that was so influential in the beginning.....

But your points are taken and I can see their perspective.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

You are unusual for your age, but Im assuming you grew up around cars like I did....that why you can appeciate the old iron...and your right, there was NOTHING like it...till now....it took 40 years to overcome the red tape in the EPA, Insurance companies, etc, to be able to build 13 second daily drivers for the masses, and thats exactly what a RT/SRT8 Challenger, and Some of the Mustangs are.

How many of your buddies at school even KNEW what a B body was ....lol. a few Im sure....but hell even the Cheerleaders knew what a mustang was :)

Theyll all be AA only soon enough....and in the case of some of the lower class packages they migrate up the chain to where they are competitive with other cars that have lived there for a while.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

drooze, you need to find yourself a real old school Stock racer or three, and sit down and listen to what they have to say. From what you have posted, you really do not have a grasp on what the class is really about, or how the system works.

No, the SCJ is NOT ready to race at $72K. I know a guy who bought one, has already spent money and worked on it before the first weekend, and will be spending more if he continues to race it.

The point is not the amount of money it takes to build one of the new cars. The point is existing cars, that have already had $30K to $70K or more invested in them, cannot compete with the new cars, because the new cars do not belong in Stock, period. Never before have such extremely underfactored purpose built package cars been allowed in Stock Eliminator.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;161835]
Don't hold your breath waiting.

Im not were going to run it to the max from the start, I wont be "waiting for others to" and get caught with my pants down trying to "protect the combo"


And they could build more interest and get more goodwill by giving each returning Veteran a new Mustang or Challenger!

If I was in charge of the program, damm skippy, any past world/national champ who wanted one and would campaign it nationally for 1 year combined across 2 years, "lease" it to them for 1$ to ensure their commitment and so it dosent end up on "ebay" after their term has been met they get the car free and clear, and damm right... Not the Div 4 winner from 1978 in some obscure class....but heavy guns, hell yes...best exposure they could buy

They represent Stock Eliminator mongrels because they're not STOCK!

Thats an opinion and I understand it....Well see when the Gt500's and the SRT8 showroom floor cars are running....

The new iron is good for everyone EXCEPT the people with the old iron.

I don't see how!

When I said everybody I meant the Factory, the NHRA, the Fans and the Vendors.....It seems pretty clear to me. The only people theyre NOT good for is the Competition....


You've apparently never been to a National Event and been around the staging lanes when the pairings for 1st round are being set up!

But that IS my point, not "Joe Public" who already goes to the races....Joe Public who DOSENT, Racing in all Genres needs new blood and new fans.....Ive been to Nats since I was 7....lots of them probably all total over 50...but thats the thing, inside...of course...what does it take to DRAW them IN from the outside...

I know a LOT of Bracket bombers who have never been to a national or even raced at NHRA sanctioned event....lots....

Oh maybe the headsup final at Pomona featuring 2 real cars and 2 class act guys.

I agree 100% Bill....but thats inside racing....will that draw new people in ? No its great to see if youre already on "the inside" but what I am saying is what has brought more outside attention from people who usually arent PAYING attention to Stock Eliminiator, or NHRA events, now LOTS of "Quiet" Mopar and Ford guys.......?

Cheers

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Thats why the SCJ got the quotes on Ready to Race....I am aware of that.

And Im not being a jerk when I say this....Im serious when I say...I dont need their Perception of what they think Class "SHOULD" be in their minds. I enjoy and respect veterans of the sport but.....well....things are and were different, and their opinion on what class racing "should be" dosent change the way that is IS now with these cars in compeition, so I can belive what they do and be doomed to failure in the current landscape or I can choose to go with the flow.

I also know from Bike packages I had over 10-20 in that met the same fate.....litteraly...but in the end it was great for me and them. I resisted...man did I resist..Its 100% the SAME thing that is happening now in Drag Racing, I saw it first hand in Bikes.....10 years ago...I have also seen orginizations like WERA and AHRMA grow and prosper....I understand more than you realize and what Im saying is its survivable.

You mean to say that never before in "Stock" has such a car been allowed....I am serious so dont take this the wrong way....In the early 60's where were the Thunderbolts and Lightweights put ? Where did the High and Mighty run ? Im building a copy of that car because I love so much what it represents. Then where were the AFX cars tried, BEFORE they were broken out into their own class ? Maybe it wasnt stock....maybe my understanding of history is skewed.

The rules were changed to put the cars where they needed to be......why wont this happen again ?

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I see now why you do not have a grasp on the concept of the class and how the system works. You do not want to.

Those veterans are still racing. Whether it is Woodro Josey, the Knight Brothers, or any number of other people in the class who have been in the class all of their lives, for 20, 30, 40, or even 50 years, I'm sure their idea of "respect" isn't the same as yours. Especially since your idea of "respect" seems to be that it is okay to come in to the class with ringers and run right over all of the veterans. And your idea of "respect" includes a radical departure from what the class they've been racing in for years has been, so that you can race what you want to in the class.

Really, your definition of "respect" is "all you old guys and your old cars are cool, but you're has beens, and that makes it okay for me to come into your class and change everything".

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Alan, I think that Drooze is coming into our sport in the same way we did, looking at it through "rose colored glasses". I don't think that he means and disrespect.
When I first came in to this I thought that I was good enough that I should have a sponsor in no time and I'd be rolling in the dough. Then reality sets in, I didn't know the right people. I'm not complaining and I wouldn't change anything but I managed to do what I have through hard work and the help of good (though not connected) friends. IMHO, just the fact that he has a Drag Package means (to me) that he has "friends in high places" which I never had. I'm gonna guess that a pretty well off Daddy doesn't hurt either.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Far from it....

Never do I think anyone is a has been....only when someone becomes incapable of change and become set in their way incapable of adapting and making the neccesary adjustments to stay competitive. Its no different than "In my day" well its not...there are PLENTY of Veteran racers who adapt and THRIVE with the changes that are presented. For them I have unending respect. For those who were on the cutting edge and capable drivers I have unending respect.

Its not that they are "has beens" its that if they do nothing but complain "this shouldnt be allowed, Im putting my foot down" and it will happen with or without their seal of approval...then they, and ONLY they will relegate themselves to the High School Quarterback who always had that 1 great game.

Perhaps its my perception of Hobby and Competition or Sportsman vs Pro...the 2 are mutually eclusive, when I go to Test and Tunes and Gamblers races and the like, Im there as a hobby, to screw around, and do nothing but have fun. Racing under a sanctioning body is racing, to win. Can you personally have fun if you dont win , ? I can..

Does "Sportsmen" mean hobby less competition ? If so why is there a sacntioning over it ?

The single reason the Challenger was decided isnt because it was a
"ringer" but rahter what it represented in an opportunity to be a part of...history , just like the original lightweights and package cars. I was going to build a FED to screw around in the Vintage...thats what I was really looking forward to...or "Nostalgia" as you call it....same thing. We would be running a regular SRT8 Challenger in Class this year had the DP not panned out.

What about the "History" it seems a lot are ignoring, maybe my history is incorrect on the Lightweights, and AFX cars as well as the later "Package" cars.......

Can someone please explain how radically different these cars are to those ? I see even less departure from the Lightweights and Thunderbolts for a mechanincal perspective ? Is it because they ended up somewhere else in class ? And thats what I am saying may happen here, and if it does, you wont hear me complain about it but rather look forward to it, and adjust, and perhaps succeed and perhaps fail. What was, from the veteran racers the reception to these when they were debuted ?

But now those cars are revered and enjoyed. Hmmmm......

One thing is 100% certain, if and when the Package Cars are moved or refactored and I FAIL to adjust, I will FAIL period...the solution seems simple, adjust or perish. Dosent mean I have to like it......

Im building my 49 Plmouth 3 Window coupe....because of the History that it represents....

Your perception of my idea of respect is pretty far off, but thats ok...I didnt make the rule, I didnt ask for the rule...I had 0 to do with it.....so the thought that "Really, your definition of "respect" is "all you old guys and your old cars are cool, but you're has beens, and that makes it okay for me to come into your class and change everything"." is incorrect....

It was changed before I got here...and it wouldnt have mattered wed of still been running a Challenger in Stock....how would they feel about the stock SRT8 when it hit low 10's ? or a year or two off High 9's ?

Cheers

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

You know, it's really funny. I have been a fan of Stock/SS for 30 years. Any time a new/fast combination pops up it was always going to "kill" class racing. Yet, here we are 30 years later and Stock/Super Stock are still going.

Yes, the CJ's and Challengers are soft. However, how many times did they reset the national records? (1 or2?) How many times has anyone really gotten blasted on a heads-up run?

The CJ's have already gotten HP and knocked themselves out of at least 1 class. Time will take care of things.

Yes, if you are in the same class as the CJ's or CDP cars you may not win class at Indy, but there are so few of them actually being raced that the odds of your combination never being competitive again is very slim.

All the talk about the 1000' runs, and no one seems to want to say that it is not just the CJ's and CDP's doing it. Some guys are still hell bent on having THE fastest car in their combination that they will do whatever it takes to be "THE MAN". Too many others just want to sit around and whine that the fast guys must be paying Glendora off or cheating, or both.

The reality is that any time you want to do true heads-up racing the guys with the best abilities or most money will always win, no matter what. Remember, that's why the Eliminator became a bracket race. Too many guys were uncompetitive and wanted a chance to win a Wally.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I have no dog in this hunt, but I do agree 100%

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

There is another way to look at the world other than through "Rose Colored Glasses" ? Gotta be miserable.....

All relative I guess.....When the old man has his issues and my son his own, this is not life or death. Its something to compete at. To me.....so were bikes...but I heal too damm slow to race anymore...thats what happens when you get old...and I feel ancient.

In as much as "connected" we went to the dealer 1/2 mile from our shop and the old man ordered the car, I thought it was a fluke we got "picked" but after talking to other owners some just did the same thing and walked into a dealer....At least 4 I know of have no previous NHRA expereince...and those are just the ones I know of, their cars wont even be ready till 2011

In as much as my fathers money or lack....dosent matter, its not mine I earned my money, he his, we both suck with a checkbook and have been broke as many times as flush. There are times in my adult life I had to buy my dad a car for daily transportation, and he me....we help each other when need be and would give each our last cent...Thats our Family, Him and I, and short of my kids its all we have as far as family the rest is gone except a couple distant cousins.

What my father DID give me, 100% was the intellect to survive and adapt, and learn....I was a Plumber and Pipefitter, blue collar guy till 25 or so....Sons Docs said find something else too risky for your son, I became a Programmer, I still code....thanks to Pop....from there, I got tired of that so here I am.

I dont know anything else, everyone says I could fall in a pile of **** and come up smelling like roses....hmmmm maybe its the glasses :)

I just dont know any other way to look at things, if I had "reality glasses" I would have gotten depressed long ago...I would have seen that I SHOULD not be where I am, I SHOULD not be secure, I SHOULD not be what everyone tells me I shouldnt be....but I am...and on my own. I always joke, and there may be more truth to it than I realized, I havent failed because Im too stupid and stubborn to know I was supposed to.

I might have a few spare pairs of glasses if anyone elses are scratched and only showing dandelions :D

Cheers

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Apparently when I say the same thing......I get slammed.. :) Thanks...

The cars are going to be rated up quick....very quick. But Im told "dont be so sure ?" Im as sure as you because I plan to be one of the ones to make it happen intentionally, and there is a reason for it, but thats for Phase II in June :)

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Everyone said the same negative stuff when the 12.9 sec. street stock '98 LS1 e.f.i. Camaros and Firebirds arrived on the scene. IMO, they have been great for the stock and super stock classes, so why shouldn't the CJ's, gen 5 Camaros and Challengers be as well? We can't live in the '60's forever regarding this stuff....just my 2 cents.....Bring them (all the new iron) on...this upcoming season will tell alot. WJ

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Those 12.9 second street stock Firebird & Camaro's got put into a class of their own until the horsepower got sorted out. Remember the EFI classes? The best class racers in the country are in the high 9's. Now they have to run against factory cars running 9.20's that have not even been played with yet. Will we see the first 8 second "stock" pass this year? With the new AHFS rules, it will take 20 years for the any car but a DP to win AA or A at Indy.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

My .02 cents. The package cars are a great historical right now piece, likely to retain their value better than a any 6 banger conversion to stocker. It doesn't matter how quick the cars are, speed is just one component of winning.

In 2010 will I get more questions at the race track from fans re my 1970 challenger rt/se Xstocker bracket car, the dakota pilot truck stocker, or the drag pak? Which will be more fun to drive? To be determined....

Will people come to the track just to see the new cars? Stock/Superstock is in my mind a great car show of classic and modern american muscle. Its a Art show, history show, engineering show, etc. The hooter's girls would not hurt the pull though....

Saving stock? The entire stocker crowd is what drew me in, not just specific cars, but doing wheelies with rules. Best group of people out there.

"package" owners should try their hand at the IHRA too, that will help "save" stock.

Beard, you are 100% correct the street challenger would pull more people in, but the HP ratings and the weight of the cars is just too high to not only be competitive, but with the new indexes, just qualifying. Although if I get the time, IHRA pure stock might be possible, but factory help with the submission of data will be what is needed there.

The package cars do one thing as designed, they are the quickest route to the track for a stock car. It might be the only way for now, with the limited attention spans and interest levels of the modern crowd, and the apparent disinterest level by the factories in promoting their street chariots. Can't race what isn't in the guide......

Eric

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

If youre dumb enough to still be banging youre head aginst the wall, dont complain about it giving you a headache

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Our shop owns 2 factory race cars. One being a 64 Dodge Race Hemi Lightweight and the other is a 09 Challenger Drag Pak and we love them both. The 64 has lived its life as a bracket racer for over the past 20 years because of the cost's involved to be competive in class. For the past 6 years we've raced the 64 in Nastalgia Super Stock. Its like a blast from the past plus we can do it on a small budget and to me, there's nothing better than watching headsup old iron vs old iron in the same index. But times are a changing. The new Challenger has again sparked up much interest in the shop. A few guys are already planning on making a DP clone. For one reason, they weren't selected and second, the cost. You don't get much of a car for the money, but you get an oringinal. One person found a used high mileage 09 6 cyl Challenger for $12,000. He can now go to the local Dodge dealer and order any part that comes on the DP. We figure he can build a tune key clone for less than the price tag of what a DP costs to begin with. With a little blood, sweat and tears, he'll have him a nice bracket car and it'll be quick on the street and thats what most guys want anyways. A few years down the road the prices of used Challenger's will go down and hopefully the Mopar parts counter will be busy with guys buying parts so they can build them a street/strip/show car on an affordable budget. Too me, it'll be no different than the late 60's, early 70's. At least the younger crowd can now reconize the newer Mopar's, Ford's and Chevy's. It'll get their minds off the "ricer's" with their fart cans that can be tuned with a Play Station and that ain't no joke.

My feelings....There's 1320' in the 1/4. Use it all. I know of a National record holder, old school B/SA car that has been the 9's running it out the back door with its tongue hanging, but you'll never see him do it at an event. Maybe these new factory cars will bring out the best of the old. The beginning of this year should be somewhat exciting and probably very contraversal. Just my .02

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

So the people who have been racing stock, many for the past 30 years of more, should be punished to benefit a few people? People who have spent tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours working on their cars should have them become uncompetitive? I know, eventually they will become factored correctly, but the challengers only got 5 this year, the mustangs 14 I think. Now there are a lot more motors to factor correctly, and that won't happen in just one year, or even five. Call me crazy, but it makes sense to me that NHRA should do what's best for the majority of its members, the ones with old iron as you say.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Well its good for you as a vendor too :) I dont know if I was your first Drag Pak part sale but I wont be the last....I told everyone I know...all 12 people :D

Your shipping was monster fast too.....

New sales and development, new customers....new fans and interest as youve seen first hand in your own shop....those are big parts of my "Idea"

Your lightweight was not a cheap car new either do you know what it cost new ? I cant remeber if you told me or that was someone else.

Im dying to see what happens when variable valve timing engines hit the track , and with direct injection...if theyre stroking over these cars, like in Jaws "I got a taxidermy man back home gonna have a heart attack when he seen what I brung him"

Oh....and I found an A1 guy that can custom make the billets and will sell just billet cores to have someone else grind....and will and CAN do custom VVT Cams.....

LSM outta Michigan , Steve Sr. Great guy.....did all that was promised and more on a real time crunch....amazing.

The second car we do will be a "clone" since well have a second combo, weve got 1 "original" and the other dosent matter.....almost bought a "rebuildable" on ebay last week for 5k....but too much shell damage.

Then again cars like Doug Duells have more RD and build in them than DP cars ordered, especially his...I can see his in 20 years having enough history to be as if not more valuable...

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Dont worry we wont take any pride in beating you either. Now, if the winning is done soley from a driver perspective then we will, but if its because our car is faster and youre not in a DP , then no, in a way well fell bad for you and Im serious, I dont know and cant speak for the other DP crews and teams, but to me beating an 98 Camaro is still like using a flamethrower to light a ciggarette in SOME cases...

Our New Hemi Racings goal is simple....to be one of the Quickest cars out there we are after.....those at present are ONLY other DP cars and the SCJ's thats it....I dont care if we are the fastest or quickest even against the SCJ's Id be suprised if that was even possible with them and a 4 liter huffer, Id like to be Competitive even if its in a losing position against them however....and maybe.....just maybe once nick one but good, what we DO care about is that we are by mid year one of the quickest of the DP cars....

Thats I guess why I really could care less if they do corrall the package cars off to their own pasture....dosent phase me at all, may in fact give us our own prime time as it were.....no issues or arguments here....

Its Stock Eliminator, no different than bikes...I consistently had one of the fastest bikes , best handling and all around set up but I SUCK as a rider, know it didnt care and still built the bikes year after year most years 2 sets...Im 220 and in GP250 thats like an elephant riding a schwinn....but still I did it....I enjoyed it. Still for the better part of 15 years I built them and rode them. I am certain there are a lot more of the "Silent" majority of Stockers out there that are the same. Has to be, or I will indeed find it dissapointing. But I know theyre out there, I get emails and calls from them every day, and not DP guys....funny thing is most are on this board but seldom post.

Im also under NO illusion as far as winning goes and , we will be beaten more than we win period.....And in MOST cases by non-package cars. Thats racing, thats life, but thats the hunt. I do not even know if its possible for us even with a top gun driver to win a National Event, there are a lot of things on the suspension side I dont know yet , Id like to believe it is, but its Stock Eliminator, sooooo many many factors come into play other than a "Quick Car" We know that too....also what I can promise is we will NEVER win a national event as a team if we dont participate at that level. So what happens if we run all year and never place or win a National ?? Nothing....we dont expect to. We HOPE to but those are 2 different things.

Hell I have never said we are going to go out and tear everyone and anyone up...dont care to...its kinda...well its kinda , IN SOME cases not all lopsided. BUT I also think that as many have said here people have more potential than they have had to tip their hand to...might be interesting.

But our goal is to be one of the best built running and tuned DP packages out there, dont know if we can, Guys like Coughlin and Garlits scare me with their contacts and resources, Irv Johns because of what hes already done and will only get better with, others like Duell as well....and then there are the "Unknowns" 3 of them scare me bad, but wont be ready till later in the year....they scare me because they too already know this engine, and when we ordered the car we were hoping we were one of the few who had our hands in one and those are the cars we are gunning after, the rest as you call them "the real stockers"....well they can actually hurt us more than help us...if we get complacant and just law of averages says they will be the danger in most eliminators.

By the mid of the year I hope to be "tuned" up enough to start running divisional stuff with the car, but Im not a "natural" at driving, Im pretty good at it when I do it repetitavley, but I wont have a chance to be running 2 or 3 times a week for months this year...its just not possible, I may get lucky but I may not.

2 years ago when I looked into and was starting this "journey" I was floored shocked and disheartened when I looked at some of the cars and packages put together over the years and "by the book" floored and pretty dismayed people were pulling the performance they were out of combos Ida guessed never had it in them....Running 10 with uncut heads on some of these cars in A and B, yeah right...but they were....my first thought was "Were gonna need a lot more power" to compete here....what people have done is amazing to me...and that is where I respect almost all the people who have put truly amazing cars together out of smog heads and low comp engines and other "junk" not in what they built but what they started with....amazing....

Cheers

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Hmmm...dont know if I agree or disagree, it happend to me before in bikes, exact same thing, I took it ok, I didnt have a choice, I adapted.

The funny thing is on the motor side I am applying everything I learned on small displacment engines for the last 20+ years, weve been using coatings for example for that long and then some, weve been doing other things for 1/20th a hp you on the car side have probably never seen....a few I told about a few items were like yeah yeah tell me more, at that point I capped it.

Punished no....not at all, but 30 year old cars...those are representive of Stock cars now ? Thats why I said, and someone else did what about a vintage break out. Vintage bikes drew MORE people than when we were mixed.

I know about the countless hours working on the cars....I am too....16hrs a day 7 days a week for more time cumulative that some other people EVER have have their hands on their car. EVERYTHING short of the cage....EVERYTHING has had my hands in on around, painted fitted checked...etc...so on that youll get no mercy here.

When I said its good for EVERYONE but the people with the old iron, I wasnt talking about the other teams / cars only, I was talking about the NHRA, the Vendors, the Manufactuers, the performance service compaines, and the fans......Once again, for everyone except the older packages....thats what I meant. New product development, new promotion, new fans....seems all good to me unless "Stockers" want to hang a sign on the door that says "Private Club Keep Out" and I dont thing thats the case for most people in stock, far from it, the outreach and the knowlege, the notes here, the phone calls here tell me most welcome us with open arms and tons of geniune help....

So Im excited.....it will be good...and dont worry about the 5 hp last year I plan for the full boat of 3.25% at Pomona, Pheonix and Gainesville each...if Im still able to make it and the car is capable :)