Pick basics of new eliminator
 

If a new Stock could be created, could there be a concensus on the basic qualities it needs?
Would it be Cheap?to buy?
Would it be many or few combinations?( Like a ford class or a chevy class or combined)
Would it be only Newer cars?(to add younger interest or identification)current cars not qualified to run due to rules limitation.
Would it be very limited modifications of motor to cut costs?( sealed versus spec versus claimer)
Would a class where all peoples current cars could run with a very limited motor rule allowing them to save money on trans and motor builds be okay? New pure motor , previous cars chassis to save money?

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Easy

• Current Stock cars as they relate to body, suspension and tires

Two engine options Big-Block and Small-Block (all makes)
• Big-block and small block class with CID limit (say 480 BB and 370 SB). Assign two weight breaks for big- and small-blocks.
• List of approved heads weight break for true inline valves
• Make common intake/exhaust valve rule
• BB .600-inch lift, SB .500-inch lift, solid roller for both
• flat-top pistons
• Big-Block: limit induction to 750 cfm carb or similar size throttle body BB, Small-Block: 650 cfm or similar TBD Throttle body
Keep the induction small since that is what limits hp

Pro-tree Heads up only, runaway combos get a weight penalty.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Evan, it sounds a lot like the Old/New "Top Stock" with a few changes...it would be good for a few with $$$ but not for the majority of current racers. Plus, it did not do well when the original Top Stock morphed to similar rules. It was fun to watch but most races did not have full fields.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

HMMMM, This looks familiar.


NMCA Technical Director

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Bill, I would love to meet you since I recently moved ot near-by Valrico.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Jeff,
You have a PM.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Sounds good. Alot cheaper than the current setups and no shoe polish.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Other ideas:

1) Maximum 150 lbs. valve spring pressure on the seat. Maximum 1.500 valve spring diameter. Dual springs w/damper maximum.
2) No external modifications to intake manifolds.
3) Limited to untouched factory intake manifold or aftermarket dual plane.
4) Roller rocker arms allowed, no stud girdles. Original rocker arm mounting configuration.
5) Deep oil pans (none below the lowest frame crossmember), no kickouts.
6) No port plates on headers.
7) Original OEM crankshafts or approved aftermarket only; no custom aftermarket billet strokers.
8) Three speed automatics and four speed manuals only, regardless of OEM configuration.
9) Steel valves only.
10) Rear wheel wells may be modified internally for maximum legal tires.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Dwight, Give them all an aftermarket dual plane intake AND a spec. 400 to 500 CFM vacuum Holley and I'm in.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

If we are going to start from scratch I think that maybe it should be 1995 and later, No big blocks, only small block crate type motors and existing current V8s.
Back to my previous post I think that all combos should be fuel injected with 1 spec. 300 to 350 CFM dry throttle body on an aftermarket dualplane (no tuned port) intake.
Also weight penalty for OHC and multi valve motors.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

An area that would have to be addressed would be the V6, L6 and 4 cylinder combinations. There is a whole lot more diversity there in design that would create challenges.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe 6s with weight break and bigger throttle body and 4s with (dare I say it) OEM turbo but with TBI restriction.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Michael Beard, if you are following this would you dust off and post your "International Pro Stock" please. I know that it's not "stock" but it's "21st century stock" and I've always thought that it could develop a good following.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

My vote would be to leave it alone. If you want to see class racing come to an end changes like this would be the way to do it.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Gump, please read the first post! We're not trying to "change" anything! We're passing time on a winters day by doing some "brain farting". Would you care to participate? If not then why are you reading this thread!

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Dick didn't specifically say "
heads up" but I've been leaning that way in my posts.
I think the only way to keep a "heads up" eliminator under control is to seriously restrict the intake tract and the RPM potential of the motors.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Would there need to be a 4 or a 6 motor? Would it start as one class or 2 classes SB and BB or would you expect enough cars to justify any other class at all ?
I could see everyone who currently has a car able to move to one or the other class with only a cheaper motor combination added. Regardless of body, or previous motor (might exclude FWD though)( Not a comment against anyones favorite only discussion)
Goal Keep minimum classes, Maximum entrants. And eliminate dial in feature?Or would varied car wts demand group of classes(BUT cheaper Basic)

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Steve, As questions were raised one could be should there be MANY classes? few classes? a class for everyone or few classes that people chose to race? Just question. Is the Large number of classes today best for diversity or worst for low participation per class?
Go Billy.....

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You go girl!!!

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Me too!

What about starting with a format similar to what Div. 1 did with Top Stock and Junior Stock? There probably needs to be a transition plan to allow people to race what they have in the current environment and also participate in a new eliminator formula. I prefer a heads-up race for both the competitors and the spectators sake. Odds are that a spectator base will not be attracted to an index-breakout race.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Dwight,with the car counts and the amount of different classes here in Div there's no time to run another race in a race.
We used to have a $20 best package race on the final qualifying shot at divisionals a ways back.A lot of fun.Between the increase in classes,entries and no one to keep track of it the race died.
It seems they're draining the fun factor out of us slow but sure.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Now would there be 4 classes? OR would there be several classes for BB and SB and a 6 and a 4 (thinking of heavy versus light cars) or just one of each and fit using bigger motor or smaller? and reduced wt or ballast?

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Dave

Why don't you save up your money and buy two more pistons. LOL

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Since we're just talking here, I'll add that a spec head that is CNC ported from the factory is easier to police against stealth modification. If there's any doubt about whether a head has been tampered with, the manufacturer can scan it, or run it throught the machine again.

In order to pass, it not only has hold the correct volume, but the shape must be identical as well. With CNC, there can be no arguing about how you found a "lucky casting".

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

The only reason that I don't like the idea of a "spec" head is it's not practical to pull a head and check the shape at the track. I guess it could be done with templates but I could see "stuff" slipping through. If the intake tract is restrictive enough (very small spec carb or throttle body) and the valve spring pressure is restricted then the RPM potential of the engine would be restricted to a point that the head and intake become less of an issue. Compression would then become an issue but I guess that a spec cylinder pressure number could be easily enforced.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

A few years ago (one of my "I'm bored" weekends) I started playing with desktop dyno just picking engine combos and restricting them. Now I know that isn't the real world but if you restrict the intake and the exhaust enough on almost any combo they all wind up making about the same HP.
It could be interesting (at least to me anyway) to get some Stockers or SSers together and put a restrictor plate under the carb and put on a collector with a 2" outlet, get them to the same weight and see how they run in relation to each other.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

I've read all this with some interest. Looking at the above, you're getting real close to what the circle track racers used to (maybe still) do. One of the local tracks around here, allowed to you to pretty much build the motor however you wanted it, as much cam and compression as you please. Here was the kicker, they limited everyone to a cast iron intake, a 500 cfm 2 barrel carbutetor and cast iron manifolds. As you can pretty much figure, everyone was running SBC's. They also mandated a specific size DOT tire, so everyone was equal, on paper.

Ever thought about revisiting the old Modified Production weight breaks? Or maybe Super Modified? Here again, I see alot of BB, SB chevy combinations, which still would be typical of S/SS. Mandate the carb/fi size. Holley makes a 450 cfm mechanical secondary carb. I like the collector restriction idea. I would say, don't allow any flycutting of the valve relief area of the piston, this would limit cam size. Someone that's smart (read that $$$$) would just build a set of pistons that would allow them to supplant this.

Some good ideas here. Limit the amount of air/fuel going in, the exhaust going out and keep everyone on 9" tires. Fitting the 6 and 4 cylinders, gonna take someone smart.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Restrictors are certainly a lot cheaper than a new set of heads.

I recall now that when I had a 2 bbl. on our G/Pure Stock combo, the same engine that went through the traps at 7000 with a Q-Jet would run out of steam at 5700with the 2 bbl. Bigger ports would only have made the situation worse.

Billy, how would you like to try it out? Do you have the equip to make a restrictor for a Q-Jet? If not, what should the specs be, maybe I can get something made. I'd be willing to try it at the test & tune before the Atco Nat'l Open (Thurs April 1st).

Any small block Ford or Mopar guys interested? We only want to compare how much each combo drops off, and if they start off close in performance, do they remain so.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Tony, I'd love to see how a restrictor plate would react. I can get the plate made. I don't know where to start with dimensions and I'm not sure if a plate would fit under a Q-jet. (throttle blades might hit plate)
Any ideas on plate dimensions?

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

Billy....you could start with 3/4 inches. (.750) or (smaller 5/8th or 1/2 inch holes) and use a 1/4 inch thick plate then allow and adaptor an inch thick above that so the carb butterflies will clear. . Thats what we used (1/2 inch) with the 2 barrel class production S/S cars in IHRA. Work from there until you find what works best. Just a suggestion.

Re: Pick basics of new eliminator
 

The Q-Jet secondary blades protrude down .75" from the bottom of the base, so the spacer/restrictor needs to be at least that tall.

Holley 4150 rated at 500 cfm has 1.50' diameter throttle bores- all four.
A 600 cfm model is 1 9/16".

Holley makes an adapter intended to mount a Q-Jet or Thermo Quad on a manifold designed for Holley 4150 or 4160 (PN 17-6).

Maybe a 4 hole gasket underneath this adaptor is all that's needed for this test.