Stocker Head confusion
 

How and the heck would stock eliminator heads have 3000-4000 plus dollars worth of work done to them without PORTING? Can someone enlighten me?

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

I've heard that the majority of the cost is for the work done to hide any illegal modifications done to the head.

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

PORTED!!! No one porting anything here! Enhanced maybe but NOT ported! ;)

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

You acid porting and shot peening and new cutter work.

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

The reason I ask is that I'm looking at putting together a stocker 427 in a TRUE FACTORY stock manner. Using true factory stock 291 heads, crankshaft, intake, block and prepped 780 carb. I guess i should be able to get 675-715 HP out of that. Yeah Right!!!

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

***Disclaimer*** Not knowing anything I would advise you take the following with a grain of salt since its said I dont do or know anything......

I dono what others do, but since things on our car are going to be scrutinized as much as they are.....here is an easy way to ring up a LEGAL bill on the heads depending on how much you do yourself.

All items checked with the NHRA of course prior to doing them.

Rocker (and Shaft if you have em) Coating and hardened shafts. (200-500)
Valve backcutting, or custom valves the way you want em to flow ($400-1000)
Treatment and coating of valve stems to full open, thats legal as long as noone of the coating is in the airflow, since its done for friction reduction youre about 60% effective there ($100)
Backcutting of valve guides so you only have a small section at top and bottom in contact with the valve, but still allow it to be stable at high RPM (the top groove is angle cut downward allowing passing gasses to form a turbulance zone inside the guide with its direction back twoard the combustion chamber)(Labor $100-300)
Coating the guides after theyre cut of course, ($50-100)
Seats of better seal charachteristics than stock.($200-500)
Finding the best springs you can with the rate and stability required for your application, Rate is EVERYTHING...id take 20 on rate instead of 10 installed height pressue every time.(200-500)
Lowest mass moving items available, retainers, cant run Ti, so looking into moly flowered and drilled, ($100-250)

Be careful of coatings, theyre like snake oil and someone will sell you anything, some of its useless, in the Aerospace industry DLC (Diamond Like Coating) is used but it has it places, not for everything, double or triple coating costs for DLC stuff.....

I just picked up my completed heads today, well see how they run.....Several of those items are waiting till the new set of shafts and castings come in.

I hear well, I hear a lot some of it is I dont know ****, but on the MC side these things payed dividends that were appraent, the effect on a larger engine in terms of percentage may be smaller as the engine is spinning much slower even at 9k , but I will take all those "you wont see much difference" items and add them up anyday......my last Honda CB350 Motor (326cc's) was 65 hp across dynos.....65 hp.....the motor got "known" and was sold for more than I had in it, not because they didnt know how to do it, nothing was secret, they just didnt want to have to do it all themselves.....Half the work in the motor, or more was in the head. And the casting was never cut.

P.S. (Some coatings that are actually effective you can do yourself, buy a cheapie Salvation Army stove , and put it near a door so you can waft the supposedly "non toxic" fumes out the door) Caswell plating sells some of TechLines stuff retail but not all.

Testing the effectivness of friction coatings is easy to set up to do yourself on reciprocating parts, its all about tempereature, set something up to spin or move something for X amount of time, then test the temperature, apply different coatings to either the same part or parts of the exact same size and finish and test again, a sewing machine rigged right from your Salvation army is good for things like rockers and valves to help build heat in a in / out motion. Usually you need a bigger motor on it to get it up to a speed thats effective , and make sure its one of the old all iron jobbers.....

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

Beyond the cost of 'enhancements', when you consider machine work followed by flow bench work to find the best combinations, @ $70-$100/hr it doesn't take long to run up a bill. It's the time, not the amount of modifications. Before the flow bench era, just the cost of precision quality work was expensive. Now, if you want some real development done on heads, the cost of the time will kill you. I have spent 40 hrs. easily just trying different seat angles/approach angles/valve head configurations for a head. That's just to find what posts the best numbers on one cylinder. Then you have to repeat that work seven more times. It may be fun, but it's also a lot of work and I get paid for it.

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

Dwight, that was a nice start on the job in question.

I'd like anyone who questions the price charged for a set of legal Stock heads to please post each operation that is involved in building a set of Stock heads, what equipment is required to perform that operation, how much that equipment costs to own and operate, and what the other overhead costs of a shop are. Next, please post a list of all of the parts required. After that, please post how long it takes to learn to do the job properly, and to know what to look for and how to find it.

You know, racing is just a hobby, to some people. However, it is not just a hobby to the people who do the machine work and build the stuff. They have to make a living at it. Just like you have a family to feed, clothe, and shelter, so do they. And if they're working on racing parts, odds are, they'd like to race, too.

If this stuff is all so simple, try taking your stuff to a local run of the mill machine shop, or even most speed and machine shops, and see how fast you go. It's not that they don't cheat, and the race shops do. It's called experience, and attention to detail.

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

"Backcutting of valve guides so you only have a small section at top and bottom in contact with the valve"

a little known speed secret!

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

I wouldnt think so but it limits the friction placed on the flat of the stem against the wall of the guide, with even a bit of runout on the guide, you have to replace the guides much more often but so what , on a small 4 valve motor it makes a big difference, on a 2 valve per cylinder pushrod motor even more since there is deflection caused from the rocker friction at the tip of the valve, valves arent pushed 90 degrees straight down, rather they "tack" down the guide from the rocker, the rocker has friction at the tip and pushes the valve away from its center of leverage, I learned it when I was 12.........I think, I learned it from one of Smokeys books that was all I read pretty much....coulda been from 1 or 2 other MC racing books though....

If i can read it, implement it and test it and see results so can others, no secret there.....

"Shrugs"......

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

I am thinking it would require an usual style reamer.

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

Unusual ? I dont know about that its a collet that holds a bit and a set screw from the top changes the angle of the bit , the bit looks like a small lathe tool, its hinged with a pin in the center of the tool you insert it, run the set screw in a bit which swings the tool (the cutting tool) out from the axis of the holder (collar), take some off, move the set screw in some more, take more off...etc. Good for "gutting" guides though.....

Half my tools Ill be honest I have no idea what they are called or what their original purpose was, this one I would say Guns, from the diamater and the source, my Grandfather, a watchmaker by trade, but clock and guns for a hobby, he also made a lot of his own tooling, but these are a set.

These were always in the upstairs of the barn which was all clocks and guns, when I lived with him it was My "Haunt" but...I dont see what use it is on a clock and Im familiar with most watch and clockmaking tools so my guess is gunsmithing..

Hmmm...now that I think about it they do look like (but arent) a rifling bit like I used for hand rifling of muzzleloader barrels, those only have a bit protrusion from one side so they would be more apt to "walk" to the far side of the guide possibly galling it, but it would work if you were careful. Look on hand rifling tools for muzzleloaders maybe.....you can set the cut and instead just move it up and down instead of trying to rifle, the guide (then again that might work too lol)

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

Lets see BBC close chamber heads trick valves, springs retainer check CC'S and correct then machine work and flow bench testing it's very easy to get 3k to 4k in a set and all this is LEGAL so to anyone that thinks they are getting ported heads for this money you are way off base and that's why people that think this way are where there at NOW!!!!!!!

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

30 years ago my buddy and I bought a set of Racing Head Service 68 Z/28 Camaro heads for $695 exchange & thought we'd payed a ton for them. I took a look at the ports that were bead blasted to within an inch of their life & thought theres no way these things will pass tech but they did. My how times have changed. I guess that means we will never find another 68 Z/28 with numbers matching block & the rest of the motor in the trunk less intake & carb for $500 either. Oh yeah, had a teak steering wheel too !

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

whats the normal price for a pair of powerpack 283 heads for superstock (or stock) now?

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

283 The last set i had done cost 2600.00 welding and port work, cc and cut stud boss down 250.00 Valves, springs, ret ,locks.850.00 total 3700. plus the castings. J Hanig

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

The expense doesnt stop with the heads, my LS1 stocker engine cost me $14,000 to build not including any dyno time.

Re: Stocker Head confusion
 

And no matter how much money you put in the motor you still need to put the time. money and effort into making the rest of the car right.