Just a thought....
Ok this is a "legality" question, for OPINIONS, not a definitive answer.
I would ask the NHRA but they may immediatley drug test me after the question and I dont want to waste their time (yet) until I have a "proof of concept" running, and NO this isnt for the DP car. This one is as "left field" as it comes. The rules say I cannot put anything into the air/intake charge but the fuel and air......simple. straightfoward. Is there anything (now) that specifically would stop me from injecting something into the cylinder in the exhaust stroke ? with specificity at the very end of the exhaust stroke with a slightly modified overlap allowing a charge of "something" to be injected into the cylinder prior to the intake opening ? I cant see how it wouldnt be legal, maybe there is precedent for something like this. I am "serious" in that I would like to know, and very serious about the legality, it would be a pretty obvious system with the MCA injectors hanging off my exhaust headers and the whistle of kicking something supersonic into the cylinders well, that would be pretty audible. But is it legal ? Or more accuratley would it be per the interpretation fo the rules, or is there something I am missing that specifically disallows it. Since I cant put it in my intake air charge this is the only other way to get it in there. Dont ask me what I want to put in there, just ..... something.......lets say....water.....yeah....magic water...... |
Re: Just a thought....
WTF are you smokin????
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Basic Filter 100's......but There was no answer as to legality though.
I can do it, physically no issue, if it will have the desired affect I wish is 50/50......depends on the thermal stoch of the material I wish to inject. But is it legal ? Quote:
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Re: Just a thought....
While I appreciate how hard you're thinking about going fast, you touched on it yourself.
It's about how the rules are interpreted. Stock is STOCK (even though it ain't what it used to be, but I accept that), but come on, a lot of people have worked hard for a lot of years making Stockers what they are. Jeez, I shouldn't have even justified your post with a response. I gotta take a shower... |
Re: Just a thought....
Maybe misposted in category, it really didnt have to do with stock well not directly but there was a reason to post it here.
The rule in question is under "general" however it applies across all classes and all rulesets in the NHRA book, including stock (excluding electric vehicles of course) The interpreation question was really not in regards to stock. But no different from any other General Regulation that does apply to stock in that .... well, if it says no ? (insert something here) under a General Reg, and Stock rules say see General Regs....then...... I figured Stock would be a good litmus test of that rule, even though its under General. IF and the big if, IF it were legal in a general sense, and hence in Stock, I have no doubts it would be elsewhere since Stock is as you pointed out really (and should be) a tighter interpreation of the rules. Hence I posted it in Stock Tech...... See......you dont need to feel dirty, your point was understandable, and I hope my reason for posting it under Stock Tech now clear. Quote:
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At are local track they made up a turbo class and said no intercoolers. So being the smart *** that I am. I plumbed CO2 to the compressor side of the turbo. When we would shoot the CO2 in, it would drop the temperature witch would make the pressure drop and load the cylinder more. We could run about 10 more pounds of boost. It took them almost a year to catch on. Boy were they pissed.
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Re: Just a thought....
Yes, it would be legal. Please let us know how it worked.
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Re: Just a thought....
Another thought...
If your mother(NHRA) told you not to ingest energy pills(power boosters), Would she be happy if you stuck them up your "other end"(euphemism for the correct word). I don't think so. If NHRA doesn't like the way you interpret the rule book, they will change it. "Tricks are for kids". I learned that lesson the hard way. HQS |
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Good point I guess I subscribe to Smokeys philosiphy, if it aint in the rules as being disallowed its legal.
The rules say I cant mix anything with the air fuel charge, and I wouldnt be. Ive got a few weeks home while I wait for pistons, Im going to modify the headers for a certain engine I have and get a pressure pump from my buddy who screws with turbines, should be fun low cost. And since I now have accumulated like 6 different sets of LA headers and motors over the years.....why not give it a try. Itll give me something to do while Im waiting for engine parts. And while Im fixing my house up, and having fun with the kids, 3 weeks till Charlotte is a long time to get bored in... It was a side effect question as well, its something I plan to try regardless, if it were NHRA legal to boot that would be icing on the cake. Cheers Chris Quote:
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Re: Just a thought....
Sounds like the good old days when people would put nitro in the oil so the fumes would be ingested in the cylinder and helping with combustion. Does it matter how it got into the cylinder or does it just mater that it did get there to make it illegal?
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Re: Just a thought....
Drooze get ya a sponge type air cleaner freeze it with NOS....install it before the water box...as it melts going down track ..... be completely gone by the time you get to the scales ;)
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Re: Just a thought....
Sounds like an egr system or PVC.
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you should be able to save a ton on the next set of custom headers, cause unless the next set are "zoomies" i gotta figure you'll be out to lunch on your scavaging?
Unless you use a F-1 intake valve stlye solinoid operated control valve which will only allow flow at high pressure hooked up to a pretty fancy custom program on you msd digital box! And even then, if you don't plan on running zoomies, will your "super secret material" have enough pressure to force itself into the exhaust port rather than being sucked out by the next cylinder's exhaust pull? This is a great IDEA! run with it man. I don't race NHRA so i say you go! i am just thinking.... i want to see the you-tube video of you blowing the headers right off the motor because of some secondary combustion that happened about 1/2" down the tube and the delay from charge to compression happen at the same time the valve was closed. Just think, you need to design this system to activate once every .01 seconds if your engine pulls 7500 rpm. Makes you wonder what the first off peice from MSD cost? Keep us posted, photos and video, lots of videos! Ian |
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Soooo..... are you wanting someones blessing to cheat? Just because the rulebook doesn't specifically state you can't do it doesn't mean you can, I found that out the hard way. Ever since when ever I had some sort of "out of the box" idea I'd run it by an Official first, saves alot of head aches. I'd try to make the motor last a race or two before I'd be trying to reinvent the wheel. But cudos on your imagination. Joe
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"Super Secret Nuclear Squirrel Crack" |
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But I'm sure all the supporters will attack this line of thinking as being to critical.... |
Re: Just a thought....
Drooze wasn't asking for someone to bless cheating....
Cheating is doing something that is against the rules. If the rules don't say you can't do it, then you can. He was trying to be sure that he hadn't missed something in the rules. It takes courage to ask questions here, since so many seem to just want to bust chops. But Drooze doesn't care, and since his inbox is always full of messages from good people who say Ignore the nasties....He will continue to post, and let the attackers do the only thing they can do,,, attack. As for waiting to ask this question, this was posted a long time before the second engine separated, so reading the post dates and knowing the time lines of circumstances would make your comments more meaningful, and keep them from appearing as just cheap shots. Have we now broken two 6.1 Hemi Drag Pak engines? Yes, we have! And we may break another one, or two before we are done. We are pushing forward on a number of areas with these engines, and we are finding out what works, and what doesn't.. But whose business is it if we toast 2, or 10 engines? At the end of the day, we will have a car that runs as welll as we are trying to make it run. You can count on that, because we don't intend to sit back and criticize what others are doing, we are moving forward, and traveling the road less traveled.. So you do what you do, and we will do what do. Have a nice day. David The New Hemi Guy ________ R65 |
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Not in the least, I am going to build a proof of concept on another engine, that has been planned for a long time, Im working with a material that has properties you arent really used to seeing in a solid before it transitions. Now that being said, I am doing it period I am going to try it, the percentage of a significant sucess is I estimate 2-3 percent. That all , but the only way to see if the result is desirable is to try it. This ideas application has several side effect one lowering exhaust valve temperatures but possibly 3-400 degrees, as well as increasing combustion pressure by perhaps up from 7-10% a significant amount in my book. The QUESTION on it being specifically ILLEGAL, was an afterthought, a "Holy cow nothing in the rules disallows this" It wasnt meant for application on a drag engine , originally. But a say 5% power increase in my book IF it were succesful (a 2-3% chance it would be) then well the possiblity for use in a Drag engine becomes obvious. I am not going to bother an NHRA official with it UNLESS it works, then Ill ask, I wont be suprised at the answer if its NO, but there has to be a REASON for the answer, if I was going to put it in the intake air chage that is specifically NOT allowed, hence there would be a reason, but, well....I asked if Titanium valve springs were allowed in Stock and the answer was "If It dosent specifically make mention of the material, and in the case of springs no materials are mentioned so YES you can use Titanium springs" That from Bruce Bachelder. So, to me that would follow the same logic for this pattern. So far, some have given reasonable opinions as to why they think it would get axed, those I appreciate, I see the reasoning, and they are food for thought, as was the WHOLE purpose of the thread, "Thinking out loud" as it were. That being said, not a single person has pointed me to a rule in the book that would disallow it, NOW In abscence of a rule that is in black and white, it raises this to be something that IF successful is WORTH asking, it looks pretty stupid to ASK Something that it says NO to explicitly, it is NOT stupid to ask on something that is not disallowed, whats the worst that could happen ? The answer would be no. If I were going to cheat which is something I cannot and will not do, I find it useless, anyone can cheat and win, anyone. To do it above board is the challenge. If I were the type of person to cheat do you think I would ask it here for all to see ? I mean really.... Is it a longshot, hell yes, like all longshots the payoffs are big if it were to be successful. If......my ether injection idea woulda worked too before my dad kiboshed that one on my minibike....sounded like a good idea when I was 9, in retrospect having a can with a solenoid under my legs fogging ether into a 10 hp Techumsa on a Rupp frame wasnt a great idea, but in all fairness he did let me put the 10hp motor on the minibike :) |
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Chirs and Dave.....
Go to work, Fix the car .....get it working somewhat as well as others have. Show up at a race and lay down some good runs, maybe win some rounds and then you will EARN the respect of all those that came before you..... So far to me all you have done is look foolish......very foolish...... |
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Respect is only worth receiving from those who are worthy of giving it.
For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not understand, no explanation will suffice. So loosen up and enjoy yourself.. We are already having fun, so go ahead and continue to amuse yourself by telling others how foolish they look.. In the meantime, we are already hard at work and regardless of the short term outcome, we are still working hard, having fun, and moving forward. David The New hemi Guy ________ XXX AMATEURS |
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"Everybody" , or just Rich, and others, According to him .. Perhaps , perhaps we should put a list of people we....nah..... I think Rich is one of the people who just "Dont get it" thats ok, not everyone is capable. Heres how it is Rich, I really dont care what you or anyone else that holds that opinion percieves to believe, I cannot make everyone happy so a long long long time ago I quit caring about appearances, living for what others think of you has to be a miserable, lonley and disappointing venture at best. No expectation for "everyone" or you would be enough..... Wow, are you one of those people who like me mows their grass because they enjoy mowing grass, or are you like my neighbor who mows his after I mow mine so as he dosent look worse ? Living for other people opinions is not a very sustainable pursuit. In as much as your "advice" I havent seen any honest directed advice without jabs....not once...so is all your "advice" laced with secondary motives ? Or are you capable of giving advice without being a dick about it ? |
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You guys are just in a class by yourselves......
I should know better than to post here but, I am stupid........Good Luck.... |
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I'm no longer an NHRA member, so I don't have access to the 2010 rulebook, but it used to say, ....as to performance equipment, it is the general rule that unless optional performance equipment or performance-related modification is specifically permitted by this Rulebook, it is prohibited.
So unless you want to write to them and get express approval, which I doubt would happen, you'd just as well forget it. Oh! It goes on to say that just because it may have passed through tech a number of times doesn't mean it's approved. Good luck! Jerry |
Re: Just a thought....
I'm no longer an NHRA member, so I don't have access to the 2010 rulebook, but it used to say, ....as to performance equipment, it is the general rule that unless optional performance equipment or performance-related modification is specifically permitted by this Rulebook, it is prohibited.
THANK YOU ! That was EXACTLY what I was looking for a rule that SPECIFICALLY disallowed it, I will look to see if that , or a variant of it is still in there. So unless you want to write to them and get express approval, which I doubt would happen, you'd just as well forget it. If thats the case then it answers the side effect legality question, the real purpose wasnt for a "NHRA Legal" drag engine, it would have just been a nifty "side effect" Im still going to try it, like someone else said, if it fails it will fail in spectacular fashion :) But thats a good point, I wouldnt even try if its disallowed by something similar to the rule you mentioned Oh! It goes on to say that just because it may have passed through tech a number of times doesn't mean it's approved. Been there, good advice.....something Ive seen before. Thanks so very much, THATS what Ive been looking for this whole flippin thread that grew a life of its own having nothing to do with the original posts. Thanks. |
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New Hemi, you are incorrect on your point that "if the rule book doesn't say you can't, then you can" that line of thinking will cause you some trouble I gaurantee that. Drooze, you feel as though people are attacking you....well you're setting yourself up for it with nearly every post. I've never met you or your dad, I'm sure you're both very nice people,however you can't start posting "hey we're gonna set the world on fire" stuff then have problems and not expect some undesireable feed back. Having someone blow the horn for you is more desireable than blowing it yourself. However I wish you the best of luck, hope you get your issues sorted out, it seems as though the effort is certainly there. Joe
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Out of interest, how did the pacifica run in round 1 of eliminations? I looked but didn't see the result. Eric |
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So I set the Cruise to 55 and changed CD's and tracks to Neil Diamond "Crackin Rosie" (the old mans CD) I was wholly expecting to get a "Delay of Game penalty" :) 25 and some change :) |
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This is a)the Internet b)ENTERTAINMENT ! Racing is 2 things, in my opinion ALL types, all classes, all vehicles, its a competitive sport for one, two its ENTERTAINMENT, for the specators, for the observers for the participants, if it werent fun would you do it ? I think some of the more "serious" types who are incapable at poking fun at themselves and in general well, they have and take issue with that opinion, they have their own and they are entitled to it. I have mine At the track when I was a kid (and i was there A LOT) People with the Charachter and ENTERTAINMENT Value, like Jungle Jim, Muldowney, when racing was understood as a partial entertainment venture and a large part was handled by promoters, or driver/promoters, nothing more You perhaps take me to serious , I dont take myself half as serious I assure you. I can reap what I sow, and if I couldnt I would have stopped a Loooonnnngggg time ago, BUT I also do NOT attack people on a personal level no matter what they say by calling them names, making suggestions ad to charachter, etc, read my posts and find one nasty directed post that wasnt opened by another by a personal attack first. Ill save you time you cant, and you wont. You wont even see any light hearted ribbing or comments about you this, or you that, because I dont know people here for the most part to make that leap and to go somewhere I see as something reserved for people I know well and in person. But others have no issue taking that liberty, thats on them not me. Thats all.... Its enterainment and information and its RACING ! |
Re: Just a thought....
Here's the very first sentence from this thread:
Ok this is a "legality" question, for OPINIONS, not a definitive answer. Now, from the most recent post: I dont mind or really even feel people are attacking, I asked a question, simple, I didnt get an answer that was valid and on topic , that was what I found annoying, it took about a month and a lot of interm garbage, to get the answer someone finally provided, nothing more. So, which was it? Opinions, or "an answer that was valid and on topic" ? I wish I had a 'buck' for every time someone on here was given the advice " get a copy of the rulebook and read it cover to cover". I don't see any reason why you should not follow the same advice. It wouldn't have taken very long to come across the definition of how to interpret the rulebook that Jerry quoted. You probably could skip the sections for the nitro classes, unless you have higher (or is that lower) aspirations. And the E.T. sections. You could have your club membership revoked for that. |
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In UNIX we have a saying any newbie when asking a question is told RTFM (Read the F**king Manual) On that note I have read the rules before I even frequented this site cover to cover on at least 3 occasion, re-read Stock and Superstock about 10 additional times each, and the General Regs about 5.
So in answer to that I have.....What I was looking for was something I had missed. "But is it legal ? Or more accuratley would it be per the interpretation fo the rules, or is there something I am missing that specifically disallows it." I have read , and reread it and missed it, its a big book in small type. :D You said, "So, which was it? Opinions, or "an answer that was valid and on topic" ?" I was looking for On Topic Opinions, not opinions on how this or that completley unrelated to the thread, is was, or "advice" on things unrlelated, I thought that was clear. I expressley thanked people for the OPINIONS on Topic and said I would take those into consideration in my thougth process. You probably could skip the sections for the nitro classes, unless you have higher (or is that lower) aspirations. And the E.T. sections. You could have your club membership revoked for that. Yep , Nitro is next for me, personally, something I will do, next year probably something in Nostalgia Classes, I dig FEDS, and well...why not, that was what I wanted to do this year but well, sidetracked by the old man DP......Ive got all the SFI Specs sitting on my desk.....but that will have to wait. Truth is I dig "Class Racing" more than I thought I would, the rules, the limits, that takes effort and intellegence to conform to. I like that, the FED thatll just be fun....... Thats all...maybe that clears up what I meant by opinion, I did in fact mean on topic opinions, although I did find humor in several of the other posts....like "WTF Are you smoking" I mean that was funny and some others. Some others that had to do with our issues, oh well... Someone said about "Lighting Fires" I would contend that even a beginning arsonist has a few matches blow out, dosent mean the intent isnt there and given when the wind is just right a fire of epic proportions will ensue, now granted sometimes a beginning arsonist ends up becoming a crispy critter by his own device, but well.......I can run REALLY fast when crap is on fire.... Cheers Chris Quote:
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