Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Is it un-sportsman like to take advantage of a situation, which is clearly wrong but within the rules? If it hurts your fellow competitors is it OK? Should you still feel the joy of accomplishment when you have been given an unfair advantage? Is there any moral obligation on your part to have the advantage corrected?

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Could you explain this ???

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

IMHO

1.yes
2.no
3.no
4.yes

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Suppose NHRA took 100 horsepower off of the '69 427 Camaro by mistake.

Would all of the guys with that combination feel satisfied?

Would the blown Ford guys or the Drag Pak guys complain?

Or

Should the Camaro guys ask NHRA to make it correct?

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

If you are talking about the new cars being put into the classes then

no, yes, and no in my opinion!

These new cas are neat but if NHRA was going to allow such an obscene HP factor on all the engine combos then they should be put into a separate class until it gets sorted out! Greg Hill posted on another thread that the LS1 (which everyone likes point to as how unfair it was back when it came out) started at 305. Now it is rated at 364 and seems to be in line with most cars in its class. When the masses came out against these cars ( as i did too) NHRA added an FI class which took care of the problem until the HP factor caught up!

In the LS1 case there was a 60 HP advantage! The HP factors on these engines coming out now are probably close to 150 HP short! The factoring system will NEVER catch up to these cars!!!!

Dont blame the racer blame NHRA

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

having now read the explanation of the question, and some of the other answers, my response is to a far more rhetorical question.

I will leave it below, but respond briefly directly to the question.

I think you would have mixed responses from the Chevy guys, and righteous complaints from the Ford and Mopar guys.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What ever makes you believe this to be wrong, should prohibit you from moving forward on it. Then, if you don't move forward with it, there is no question about whether or not to feel a sense of accomplishment..

I am one who loves any advantage as long as I deem it a fair advantage.

If I am willing to take a risk, and do something that others have either not thought of doing, or were unwilling to take the same risk to do, then it is fair advantage.

There is a gray area in lots of decisions, right up until you decide if it is right or wrong. Then you have painted it in one of two brilliant shades of either Black or White..

Once you have applied a moral rule to a situation, then it is up to you to also apply the moral weight of that rule.

Wrong is wrong, even of everyone is doing it, and right is right, even if nobody is doing it.

Some people will do anything to gain an advantage, and that is their right. To me, doing the "right thing" trumps all other choices..

David
The New hemi Guy
________
Big **** mature

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

The funny thing is that 100 off the 69 427 camaro OR 100 added to the new blown mustang it still would'nt win!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Well said David !!!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Well if youre talking about running a DP car then no that is 100% Ok :D

But if youre talking about a "technical" mistake, that dosent hurt other competitors if YOU are the first to take advantage of it and they can follow, its no different for a rule change allowing something now, and others just arent doing it. Like a "loophole" those get closed in short order usually sometimes they dont and the other competitors can take advantage of the same rule.

If you are talking about something that is "Allowed" but not obvious no , no problem, like Titanium valve springs in Stock, they are ALLOWED , But noone except the NHRA sees the rule that way, Im not saying they will buy you anything but if they did would it be "wrong" to run them just because other people felt so ?

BUT you were talking about something to hurt other competitors ? How ? Is it something that you are doing they cant ? If they can too then how is it hurting them ? If its a "mistake" in rules or classification why wouldnt it get corrected immediatley after ? So say the rules rated the 1 Camaro 100 hp lower and its a typo , wouldnt they figure that out and correct it ? How would it hurt other competitors, you qualify #1 and what then ? Same uphill eliminator right ? Thats not a "lock"

I was looking at a 3 valve Mitsu engine thats listed in the Guides but they DONT list the 3rd valve specs OR Cam lift on it (the 3rd very odd valve), whats that mean ? Can I run anything I want there as long as head mod isnt needed ?

I cant imagine there is something "shady" or "underhanded" , but maybe Im wrong, if there was something that qualified as such , say an accidental change that made a whole bunch of peoples cars "technically illegal" and you went out just to get them DQ'd to move up the ladder and were able to. Then yeah Id say wrong is wrong, even though its "technically" right.....I would also suggest sleeping in my car with armed guards in the pits .... Or my ex wife....shed scare the piss outta sasquatch.

Wrong is wrong, right is right, Grey is Gray....its either way if thats not as clear as mud I dono what is.:eek:

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

I think it has to do with the integrity of our sport and the morality of the racers.

I do not think I could feel good about being that much faster than my competition, without having to invest a lot of my time and effort to do it.

But I guess it is a sign of the times.

In this tough economy there is still plenty of money to be spent by those that are lucky enough to have it. I unfortunately, do not have it at this stage of my life.

If only I had saved all of the money I spent on my current car - I could probably afford one of the new ones.

I just do not think I would enjoy it as much.

I am not jealous - just sad.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Hmmmm.....

There are "honest" reasons to have a New Car however.

The DP #24 was not bought in anyway with an unfair advantage in mind, my Father wanted one, he wants a lot of things and has them, it was something that held interest to him.

Its something he saw intrinsic value in. Not only now but in the future as a collectible item, and something he wanted us to be a part of like the original AFX Cars.

We were not Class racers to start, the whole thing is still a little alien to us as competitors as is many types of "bracket" or dial racing. We preffer something a little different , but such is the state of Racing and there are few if any heads up classes that are "reasonable" to run in that dont run in that format.

I can tell you this, my father would have bought the car regardless if it, a) was rendered "illegal" or disqualified, b)was factored like a beast and not really even competitive becuase of that c)Wasnt even really THAT fast d) on an on, he STILL would have bought it. Thats him youd have to know him when he gets his teeth or head in something, forget it its gonna happen.

NOW that being said, he bought it, what next ? Build it, we did, Next ? Well its a damm racecar ! We didnt make the rule, the factor, none of it, and we didnt put it where it was. AND We for example STILL would have done it no matter what that was, the fact that it got factored low was never a consideration for its purchase or competition.

Its a Drag Pak, a once in a LIFETIME opportunity to be part of that. Thats all.

Will we take pride in beating another car ? Hell at this point well have pride in just getting it down the track competitivley :eek: But once it gets "wrung out" well it STOCK ELIMINATOR ! IF, IF win say an event, it wont be because our car is fast it will be because, a)we know our car b)back it up with the proper driving and RT c)have worked JUST as hard as anyone else doing it.

IF by somehow some chance ONLY win an eliminator because we are up against a much slower car in the same class in a heads up run, if our RT is better then yes it will be a full victory from our (or my) viewpoint, but IF ONLY IF Its ONLY because the combo is underrated, well then yes it will have some hollowness to the victory.

I dont think you can say anything about the "morality" or "integrity" of someone driving a DP or CJ because they are, that seems COMPLETLEY Absurd to me, you would have to know THEIR reasons for doing it.

We invested a LOT of money, and a LOT of blood sweat dissapointments and well a LOT, more in 3 months than MANY do in a Year , 16hr days 7days a week 7000 miles thus far and not 1 National we have yet hoped for because of failures on items.

But maybe I completley misunderstood what you were saying, completley....if so and thats not it, I guess Im not 100% clear on a)what you were asking or b)what you are now saying.

B

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

At the risk of being attacked here -

Drooze -

"BUT you were talking about something to hurt other competitors ? How ? Is it something that you are doing they cant ? If they can too then how is it hurting them ?"

You answered the number one question – it is OK with you

“How?” Come on - you are a smart guy - you know how

“If they can too then how is it hurting them ?” I guess the key words here are "they can too"

I think the phrase here that applies is "if you can't take the heat - get out of the kitchen" or maybe a better one is "put up or shut up"

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Let me close with this and then you guys have at me

I appreciate the investment opportunity - good call - wish I could afford it

This was about a Drag Pak or Blown Ford guy going to NHRA and saying "come on - it is obscene" adjust our horsepower

I know that would be an absurd thing to do - it is something that would involve morality and integrity - sportsmanship for the good of fellow competitors and the sport itself

I know there are other combinations which are out of line - but not 125 hp

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

"BUT you were talking about something to hurt other competitors ? How ? Is it something that you are doing they cant ? If they can too then how is it hurting them ?"
You answered the number one question – it is OK with you

NO I said it MAY be, your question was so wholly Vauge in its origin, I provided examples of what may or may not be OK, with me. I also went on to say. I had to make assumptions on what "RULE" you were talking or making inferrence to, only later did I realize you were specifically targeting the DP and CJ again....if that is in fact true and Im still not sure thats what you were talking about.

You cant Claim I answered, or gather from that that anything was Ok with me, because I wasnt sure what the hell EXACTLY was being asked, I was talking in generalities.

What I went on to say was.

"I cant imagine there is something "shady" or "underhanded" , but maybe Im wrong, if there was something that qualified as such , say an accidental change that made a whole bunch of peoples cars "technically illegal" and you went out just to get them DQ'd to move up the ladder and were able to. Then yeah Id say wrong is wrong, even though its "technically" right"

“How?” Come on - you are a smart guy - you know how

If you ARE talking about the new Combos, then no I dont see them as unfair, I see them as fast, but they are no more likley to win an eliminator than a slow combo, maybe thats my nievety in Class Racing. I dont see a heads up run often deciding the outcome of an eliminator.

I also dont see being MORE competitive than the next guy as HURTING Competiton, I see it as the OPPOSITE, I see it DRIVING Competiton, simple and matter of FACT, for you ? Maybe not, but for others ? with both the Index changes and the DP and CJ's . My BET is you are going to see a WHOLE LOT Of FAST as HELL AA and A cars WHEN they need to be. Does that mean by laying LOW they have been hurting competion ? The pendulum swings both ways.

What you would say is because someone can be MORE competitive than you, (or at least that SEEMS to be your perception just by being faster) then it would seem, to me at least, because someone is for the moment more competitive than another that somehow HURTS their competitors ? I doubt it, instead I think you will see them become faster and more competitive than previously IF they have a DESIRE to.

Thats like saying, well he runs faster because he has Nike's and I only have Chuck Taylor All Stars....then someone who runs faster barefoot comes along and throws that all out of wack and then what ? Hes hurting competiton because hes not wearing shoes ? (and its happened in Maraton running)

“If they can too then how is it hurting them ?” I guess the key words here are "they can too"

Correct, I think if in my example they choose not to with say Titanium springs, then sorry if I am more competitive because I choose to run them and take the risks of running them, then why shouldnt I benefit from running them ? Just because others choose not too?

I think the phrase here that applies is "if you can't take the heat - get out of the kitchen" or maybe a better one is "put up or shut up"

I so completley dont understand the context pr direction of this the only thing I can say is.....I completly dont understand the context or direction of this


I dont , and it wasnt my intent to flame or slam you if I did Im sorry I am trying to carry on an accurate and correct dialogue.

Cheers

Chris

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

I think a lot of the salient points of this discussion were already held in the Jeff Teuton thread about HP on Monday.

This thread began as a rehetorical question. Now it has become a specifc question about whether the new Fords and Mopars are "fair".

Now that have a specific question, "Are we being fair by running a car that has been erroneously rated?"

When the Mopars hit the track, it was all about "it isn't fair". Now the CJs are hitting the track and it is all about "it isn't fair". Each turn of technolgy wheel will yield another that for a time seems also unfair. And we will have a few new ones coming up as direct injection and variable cam timing are coming.

The unfortunate thing about fair, is that it is subjective. I don't think some of the past Hp ratings were fair, but their unfairness and this situation are simply temporary conditions.

If the question is; should these new technology vehicles have their own classes, the answer probably is yes. Will it happen soon...if ever, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men? (Ok Lamar Cranston snuck in for a second..)

Either the old iron needs it's own classes, or the new iron needs it's own classes.

So are we responsible for correcting these temporary imbalance, or will time, do as it has done so many other times, render this argument moot? I vote for time....

As has been pointed out in that other thread, "the tide comes, and the tide goes" To which I simply add, long live the movement of the tide, both ways. It will keep the sport clean by washing in both ways.

David
The New hemi Guy
________
Pov Tubes

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Well if you call 20 years a temporary situation witch may or may not be more or less the time some invest in this sport then you may be correct, But this will not correct itself in the next couple of years, These crate engines make the DP and the CJ look weak on paper so if you think this only affects the upper Classes you better look again!!!!!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

It has ALWAYS been this way in NHRA class racing. To many the challenge is "finding" this advantage then using it to be a winner. That is their thing. I can see them showing NHRA how far off it is. It is also easier for some than actually out working skilled racers.
I have always felt when these situations occur MANY are upset by its unfairness and a group who can afford to jump on it smile while they us the advantage. The group gets bigger and then NHRA "finds"this issue and slowly corrects it. Then the group with the cars gets upset that their advantage has been taken and just moves on again. Result is NHRA keeps the majjority of people upset about something all the time...
Other side. If they Over factored ,No ONe would desert their older cars, No new blood in the eliminations, no factory hand shakes.No special " advantages for the few.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

What challenge is there in taking a combination that is under rated by 75-125hp and making it run fast? That garners no respect from anybody. Anyone with lots of money can buy one of these new cars and fly. It doesn't take knowledge, it doesn't take hard work, it doesn't take trying 15 camshafts or 10 converters to pick up a few hundreths. It is immoral for NHRA to rate these crate motors at the hp ratings they have. I will let everyone on here decide whether it's immoral for racers to race them. I will say this if things don't change I think stock and possibly super stock will have substantially reduced numbers in the future.

NHRA changed the rules in stock to allow these cars to compete with no input from stock racers. They [NHRA] do not have our interests in mind. I guess the big question is why they would do something that drastically changes our class with no input from the people who support them? Do any of you think it has to do with money? For all of you Ford guys or Chrysler guys who think this is about brand loyalty, I would be saying the same thing about GM if they did it.

For the engine builders and people who we buy parts from, for the people who we buy trailers and motorhomes from , for the people who we buy racing fuel from, how do you feel about lower numbers of racers competing? How is it going to affect your business?

I really can't understand how long time stock or even super stock racers can condone this.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

If you're old enough to be Andy's Dad then you should be old enough to know that life, love and Drag Racing aren't fair. My answers to your questions?
If you're not throwing stones down somebodys throttlebody or flattening his tires AND you're not breaking any rules then go for it!
Assuming said competitor would "hurt" you then I guess it all comes down to how well you can sleep at night.
If you have the fastest DP Challenger or SCJ Mustang or Wheelbarrow full of rocks then there should be some joy in your accomplishment.
You are ASSuming that you are dealing with people that share your same moral beliefs and you're probably not. So again, how well do you sleep at night?
There sure were a lot of nice, new Ford trucks and cars being driven around Gainesville by NHRA employees and I'm sure that they sleep just fine. Besides, that's just business.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Unfortunately there is AA/AH that is an example of ALL the same cars... only negative is expense and shifting rules.
If more one combo classes were developed the costs could dominate there too.
Just another kind of satisfaction.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Greg, Bruce Noland and I thumped that "Bible" over a year ago and nothing happened! Nothing is going to happen! The handfull of people that actually care about (what once was) Stock and SS are either too old or too disillusioned to do anything about it!
I don't blame ANY S/SS racer for buying a new combo because THAT is what NHRA wants because THAT is what will pay their bills (in the short term).
I personally don't believe that we will be around for me to "retire" from racing anyway.
Just be thankful that you decided to build popular body styles that you can restore, streetrod or sell to get some of your investment back.
If it sounds like I've given up well, let me just say that I don't believe that ANY NHRA racers will be treated with ANY respect as long as the people that are in charge in the "Ivory Tower" remain there. To them "It's just business".
Gee, maybe next time we (the racers) have a problem with a lane or the pits or a new ruling we should go "in mass" to the tower and explain to them that "It's just OUR business"!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

I don't know if you guys are talking stock or super stock....but in our case....Brian Oakes 427 69 camaro ran the quickest and fastest time ever (for a SS/CA car) in testing at No Problem...and he is the leader in C and D. ......His stuff is fast.......

Rock Haas

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

To me the Stock class have lost most all of it's appeal now....not because of new cars because they are needed,but the fact that now no one really have to work and research those new combo's very hard to "get there" you can almost just pick a new Mustang or a Challenger (who really are SuperStockers)...and be head and shoulders above the rest of the competition right from the start...and because of that i dont think we will see the blend of cars we have today for very long..we are just not racing the same game anymore..everyone else is just bringing a knife to the gun fight..sure some will still take a shot at the eliminator but most of the older cars will dissappear or find a place in some type of Nostalgia events or otherwise be restored..(maybe thats were they belong anyway)will be interesting to see what Fletch and alot of other Touring Pro's will do with when more new cars are coming out in the higher classes Mark F. has allready moved out but will be cornered by Challengers soon it seems..
Well..there will be alot of new Heroes in stock in the future but i doubt i personally will respect them that much!
As someone said..It's just business..and NHRA owns the game!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

As an "observer" and a student who studies the history of things, it would seem to me, that quite frankly we are only NOW seeing again what WAS in the Beginning.

Look at factory involvment then ?

THEN You could walk right into the dealer , as now and buy a KILLER combo, maybe it was only good for a year or so, but look at some of the bastard monstrosities that were built for Stock back in the day.

NOW They run right along side the 93 Camaros etc.

Look at what evolved into the Funny Cars, the AFX cars, that were at first STOCK Cars.....

I see only a Lapse in this being the norm, it was this way in the beginning, not in the middle and is now again.

Maybe Im wrong, but it would seem in the Interm people got used to the way things stagnated from a perspective of factory involvment and carved an honored and much deserved place for themselves. Now that the factories are involved AGAIN, its "Foul" ?

Im confused, I do understand, like I said, on motorcycles it came to the point the bikes I loved became "Vintage" class, it was a hard pill to swallow, especially when for 4 or 5 years they could have still been competitive, NOW however anyhting less than a FI bike and Im out of the game.....times change....I have a choice stand still and let things pass me by, or adapt. This year for the FIRST time since my GPZ I am considering a FI bike, why because I would like to "Play" a bit and with country travels there are some tracks Ive always wanted to run.....

Anyway another 39.7 cent installment from the Drooze....

Like I said in another thread I think the new package cars will HELP Involvment and ATTENTION to Stock racing, some agree, some disagree. That ok, everyone everyone is entitled to their opinion, them theirs and me ours.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

That sounds fair...he should be....but i'll wait with my own judgement until i see you two guys square off headsup in the finals of US Nats or something of similar value..
Great car by the way!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

If the weather stays good at Charlotte, maybe some questions of just how good these new (Dodges and CJ Fords) cars really are will be answered in the next few days....Fast, but can they win? I'm probably hitting a bee's nest with a baseball bat here, but my guess is that the best of the old combo stand-by cars will more than hold their own in their respective classes against the new pieces...just my .02 cents...WJ:D

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Andy,
Personally, I'm glad you started this thread. We need to discuss these issues. None of this would be happening if we were dealing with a decent sanctioning body. But unfotunately we are not. Some say this is just a business for the sanctioning body in question but the sanctioning body does such a good job at masqurading as a family oriented not for profit that it leaves many people bewildered when it makes so many self serving decisions. Make no mistake, these guys know exactly what they are doing. They have been lobbied successfully by the OEM's and others who have a lot to gain from these new cars coming into Stock and Super Stock. These new cars coming into Stock and Super Stock will feed the professional carreers of some and increase income for others, but of course these facts should not be considered when making decisions about Sportsman Racing. There are many indoctrinated racers who simply want to run down the track and they aren't bothered by the fact that very soon their way of racing will be gone forever. Gone? Why-come? Because most racers cannot afford $100,000.00 racing programs and these new cars will simply shatter their dreams of working on their old combinations with the hopes of becoming a player in their respective classes. Nope, that dream is gone. It will be left to the 100 or so racers who are rich enough to exploit a lame, money-sucking sanctioning body.

Rock,
Please don't make us laugh. You need to put on that .200+ pulley you have in the tralier and turn it loose. Then we'll see who is the fastest.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

There is a difference between purpose built race cars - which have a very limited production number - you have to stand in line to get - with cash before delivery
AND
Showroom cars

As Drooze said they are like the old FX cars - right on

I agree the landscape is changing and I do not have to like it - I just have to deal with it

I agree with Drooze - The fastest cars do not win all of the time - There just aren't that many heads up races anyway

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Like I said on another thread, where was all this concern for my stock trucks which got factored and classed from first to last, and where was the help I asked for for my 69 Six Pack car. Yall a little one sided. Let the system do the work. These new cars will surely step on their foot. Too many of them when they all get to the track. Hell I will probably step on my foot.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

This is the same argument from the 60's when the factories jumped into the frucus, the Mopar cars, the camaros, the copo cars, the Shelby's. Just 40 or 50 years later.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Jeff,
This is not the 50's or 60's. You are racing a 1 of 3 race car that has overwhelming advantages over it's competitors. Your old truck has little or nothing in common with your new car. Sure you can race it all you want. After all it is in the class guides.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Jeff,you gave us a preview of the potential of your combo at Belle Rose.These new breed cars are showing a taste of what they're capable of.They will filter down from A and
AA down as their numbers grow.What will come to be when someone starts to run the Camaro combos?Everything from A to H will be dominated by them.
I can just see Dan,Peter and others showing up in P-Q-R-T-U-V to avoid the tsunami of
these under factored overpriced "stockers".

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

[QUOTE=Bruce Noland;177085]Andy,
Personally, I'm glad you started this thread. We need to discuss these issues. None of this would be happening if we were dealing with a decent sanctioning body. But unfotunately we are not. Some say this is just a business for the sanctioning body in question but the sanctioning body does such a good job at masqurading as a family oriented not for profit that it leaves many people bewildered when it makes so many self serving decisions. Make no mistake, these guys know exactly what they are doing. They have been lobbied successfully by the OEM's and others who have a lot to gain from these new cars coming into Stock and Super Stock. These new cars coming into Stock and Super Stock will feed the professional carreers of some and increase income for others, but of course these facts should not be considered when making decisions about Sportsman Racing. There are many indoctrinated racers who simply want to run down the track and they aren't bothered by the fact that very soon their way of racing will be gone forever. Gone? Why-come? Because most racers cannot afford $100,000.00 racing programs and these new cars will simply shatter their dreams of working on their old combinations with the hopes of becoming a player in their respective classes. Nope, that dream is gone. It will be left to the 100 or so racers who are rich enough to exploit a lame, money-sucking sanctioning body.

Bruce -- The way I see it is that it doesn't matter which of us is right as there are only two facts that are important right now -- the first is that the "new" cars are here to stay and the second is that the NHRA isn't about to back down and make serious changes to the current HP as you have suggested -- so here's the dilemma -- which do YOU need more -- a "new" car or a new sanctioning body ....................At some point you must realize that you can beat the drum as loud as you want but no one is coming .................

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Ok from this point on all racers in stock must race a 1970 350 camaro so the class will be FAIR. And racers can only spend a max of 30,000 on your car. You can only run a TCI trans with a 2.75 low gear and 5.13 rear gear with headman headers. Would this rule make everyone happy because that is about the only where I see SS and STK being fair for all.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

If I understand this explanation you're asking me as a competitor to go and complain to the NHRA that they took too much HP off the camaro......and the answer is "yes". Actually I would ask them if it was a misprint then lay out reasons why the HP should be added back to the 427.

If you're trying to compare this situation to the new Fords and Dodges then you're comparing apples to oranges. The 427 Camaro is a well known entity while the "new" cars are just that....new, therefore there are no proven performance statistics to measure the the new cars against.

Just like the Chevy/Pontiac FI cars the HP will catch up to the Fords and Dodges someday, it's just going to be rough for a while.

JimR

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

amen...ED

Bruce....the pulleys were on there....I was getting ready for the CIC race.........except for radials.....

My point was that if Brian was in D...he would have dominated just like we did....till the final...then we would have had some fun....

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Probably so..but this time around there are no people in place trying to make it fair for the rest along the line .rather the opposite it seems(please dont talk about the system taking care of it..that joke is not fun anymore).....
Atleast i know that when the day comes that i get a headsup with a grossly under-rated car and the guy in the other lane have maybe a .3 to .4 reaction and waiving and smiling going by me well..that's the same day for the last round of NHRA-type stock eliminator for me...my idea of this wasn't spending $$$$$+ and 25 years to be out there making others shine!

Have fun with your beautiful car!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

This all could be fixed in one year by the hras if they had the balls. Give big points for national records,big points for class wins, how about having like classed face each other in the eliminator in the first few rounds? The under factored cars no matter if their old or new have to be forced to put their foot in it or it will take as long as the Lt-1s and LS-1s to be factored correctly. I know people will still be able to play games in qualifying to avoid the heads up but it would be tougher. Also big points for #1 qualifier. Maybe keeping the cars in their original class to keep them from changeing class at every race with weight changes. I don't know but its just going to get worse with the new technology and chevy isn't involved yet. Wait until they come in at 250 horse or something goofy like that.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

For me the biggest issue with the new cars is the fact that they aren't true production cars that should be in stock. I cannot roll into any Dodge dealer right now and open the hood of a Challenger and find the engine these cars are running in Stock. The Ford is actually closer to stock than the Mopar but like the Dodge it's not a true production car. The production Ford weighs 3900 lb and is 550hp. I don't have a problem with fast stockers I actually like them. They do have a significant advantage over older cars and that's to be expected with the increase in technology. I think they should get moved to their own class and eventually when the hp does even out then move them back into Stock but I imagine by that point they will be super stock only cars due to the extremely high hp factor they would carry by then.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

I like what Harry said......makes some good sense. Make it worthwhile for people to start running their car out the back door.....WJ