Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Charlie , I'll ease up on you for a while and move on to maybe the most bogus of all the new cars horsepower factors. Check out the 5.7 hemi from Chrysler/ Fiat. It's the same motor as the 6.1 just less 25 cubic inches. It's rated at 305hp. Let's take a look at the specs boys and girls. It's 12.7 to 1 compression, it has a 584/552 lift cam, it has a single plane intake that is cast although it looks like a sheet metal manifold. It has a 1000cfm throttle body, a super stock oil pan and heads that flow well over 300 cfm right out of the box. Now let's compare this little jewel to the GM LS1 in the automatic version which is rated at 373hp unless you have a GTO or a Corvette and that's another story entirely.

The LS1 is 10.2 to 1 compression, it has a 515/515 lift cam, it's got a plastic manifold, a throttle body that is 2.954 round, a street oil pan, and good heads, although I bet they don't flow anywhere near the hemi heads on the Chrysler motor. Oh by the way the LS1 is 346 cubic inches.

The Chrysler should easily make 600hp. Any of you proponents of the new cars want to try and defend this deal.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

And don't forget the 428 ford crate engine @375hp, 12.5to1 .590 roller cam and also large single plane intake with a 1000cfm throttle body with current technolgy cylinder heads, this one will make anybody with an old 440, 427, 426, look weak all day long, So the question is when were these car ever made that you could buy from the dealer, NEVER, they can't be sold by a dealer for steet use so they souldn't be in stock elim. like the rest of the new cars!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

When does a 1000 cfm throttle body make a difference, or the oil pan?.... 305 HP? Thats funny right there and I agree. Thankfully they didn't use 5.7 heads or you'd be in for a real shock. :eek:

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

I forgot another thing when comparing the two engines. The Chrysler has 2.10/ 1.60 valves and the LS1 has 2.00/1.55 valves. The question is how does a 1000cfm throttle body or a super stock oil pan make any difference ? Do I really have to answer that? Seems to me the hemi should be at least 375 hp starting out. The 6.1 is soft but the 5.7 is ridiculous.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Another injustice foisted upon you guys... Man, it must be tough to be on the wrong end of every new car HP rating.....

Would say more, but I have to go now. We need to get back to setting up our 5.7 engine now, getting ready for Houston..

David
The New Hemi Guy
________
Kitchen Measures

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

600 HP? Maybe with a "bracket" tuneup. I bet it's a whole lot closer to 700 when someone does it right.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

You will find out some day if you become an old hemi guy. And why are you still on the site? Thought you were working on your hemi.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

We decided to take the weekend off. No sense in hurrying these things.
And coincidently we have to wait until Monday to pick up the 5.7 block we are having "specially prepared" legal, but still specially prepared..

And of course we will be sure to let you guys know what kind of Hp we pull, once we get it to the track or the dyno...

Let's see. The rating is now 305....Man, If it isn't at least 309 or 310, we are gonna be real dissapointed..

So if we get a 3135 lb car down the track in the low 10s, you can be sure we squeezed out at least 310 and maybe a little bit more......

David
The New Hemi Guy
________
Coach handbags

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Can you say "FACTORY RACE CARS".

If we had computers with web sites like this back in 64 or 65 I would have been reading the same threads.

I don't care how much the car company's say they are not into racing, the rule has always been "WIN ON SUNDAY--SELL ON MONDAY". NHRA and IHRA don't test cars they believe the horsepower ratings that the factory issues until it is proven different.

The rules of today were written because of the new combinations that were tried in the past. The old rules are also still there because they are being tested at every meet. Don't put all of your money into a combination that will recieve a large factor tomorrow.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

The 5.7 and 6.1 have the same heads. Rest assured my friends, this too shall pass as the foot stepping on other body parts will remedy the situation. Looks like the 6.1 is headed for 2.25% in June or July, whenever the period ends. And now that we got this in the open (course it's been there over a year), maybe a Ford review and by that time GM will probably have some combos for review. Someone at GM has to care. None of this in instigated by NHRA. The mfg. has to submit the stuff etc.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

The ahfs was not intended to cover for abuses of the factoring system by nhra staff.

GM is NOT coming out to play and it would not make any difference to the majority of the current racers if it did.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Stock is a performance class that has a horsepower to weight factor. The idea that the manufacturers can corrupt the process by giving these new cars such bogus ratings is something we all should care about. NHRA is deeply involved in this corrupt practice and without their involvement it would not be possible. If we don't stand up to this corrupt process we get what we deserve. I hear a lot of people say " What can we do? They are here and their is nothing we can do about it." I'll tell you what you can do. Don't support NHRA at National events. A few races with just new Challengers and Mustangs might get some action. Don't forget when the fuel injected GM cars came out, it took all of us letting NHRA know how unfair the hp ratings were before they reluctantly made the fuel injected classes. After more than 10 years those cars are properly factored and they are no faster than a lot of combinations. Do you all really want to race these under factored cars for 10 plus years before the factors are fair.

Also don't forget the muffler deal. You all do remember that don't you? We were going to be required to all run mufflers. I remember Gale Pinkston telling Danny Gracias that if we had to run mufflers he would just quit. Stand up and be counted. Don't let them get away with this.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Greg,
In ALL honesty,don't you think that the horsepower rating on your combo is "favorable"?
I know for a fact that you have been at least a half second faster than me or my mom numerous times.
I know you probably feel that you "work harder on your stuff and deserve it"
Thats fine,but what about something like a E/SA Chevrolet Powerglide Camaro.Don't know the ratings,but I know you seem to have them by at least a few tenths too.

The real point is that horsepower ratings will NEVER be fair.

I like racing a 1970 442 Oldsmobile,but IF the numbers ever come out right on the lottery,I will be getting a new Mustang or a Challenger for Stock Eliminator.There is a huge advantage to having the faster car in heads up races.

It is NOT all bracket racing as some seem to think it is.

You won the Division 3 Championship a few years ago,and having the fastest E/SA car was part of the reason.

(Might want to change your signature line,not #31 anymore)

As far as not running any National events,I don't know what that will accomplish,but I'm glad I don't have to worry about running you at National events,although I'm sure we will meet a few times at some Divisional races.
Just my $4.42,but I think you are making too much of all of these bogus horsepower ratings.There are A LOT of bogus horsepower ratings.Some are definately more bogus than others,but my feeling on Heads Up races is this:

If you are in a HEADS UP race and are slower than ONE TENTH of a second in performance,all the other driver has to accomplish is .099 on the tree,and the SLOWER CAR CAN NOT WIN!
If you are a second slower,or a tenth slower,.099 on the tree WINS the race for the faster car.Simple as that!

CLOSE doesn't count in Drag Racing!

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

442OLDS

WOW!!

The difference is that your combo can be competitive with Greg and most current cars in your class! If you elect not to spend the time or $$$ to get there, that is your choice. The old combo's will NEVER be cometitive again with the new cars if NHRA does'nt wise up!

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Mr. Jeff, The 5.7 and 5.9 DP combo is rare compared to all the 6.1's out there. Must be like 90, 09 DP's that run the 6.1 package and all the 2010's will. As far as I know, Johnson, John's, you and I are the only one's that ordered the 1 of 5, 5.7 DP package. I can't find the 5th car. Do you recollect who has it?

To everyonelse...My personal feeling about the 5.7 as being underated? Yes it is, but what am I suppose to do about it?

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

I'd laugh out loud if it wasn't so unfunny. Heck the NHRA 'purist" won't race in IHRA because of "them bogus outlaw Crate Motor cars that are so underfactored and were never built"... my 360 Magnum is a 300/325HP combo, 9.6:1 compression, dish piston, .458/.467" cam, 1.92/1.62 valves, and a 750 Holley... compare that to the above.

But NAW! NHRA said that THESE cars were a-ok, so they're completely defensible (as long as you own one)... :rolleyes:

Once again, I absolutely love the new Challengers and Cobra Jets, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be factored and classified properly.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

That is exactly why we are building a 5.7 right now. We could see the 6.1 getting a lot more hp added, and if we could have stopped blowing them up, we might have contributed to it...But it has always been our plan to run a 5.7, we even have had two 5.7 blocks sitting in pour shop before we took delivery of the Drag Pak.

We still have a fresh 6.1 block sitting, and have special plans for it down the road when we get bored (I mean tired...) with running the 5.7.

Let's see now. We are being criticized for running a 6.1... And we will will equally criticized for running a 5.7 to.... And even if we went to the 5.9 magnum, we would probably be criticized too. So what to do, what to do?

Guess we will just have to run what we have, and let the critics do what they do...

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

No critisizing here. If I had one I would race it. The problem I see is that if NHRA doesnt get a handle on the HP factors on all the combos that will be coming out from C thru M stock, the NHRA will see a big drop in the National participation!

Just my opinion

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Darrell, since you chose to make this personal , i will say this. Is there any E/SA in division 3 that can't out run you. Let me see, Mitch Truman, Randy Simpson,Joey Wilkes, Jamie Fenner, Dan Walcott, and last but not least Jim Kakel, who runs the same combination as you and I have seen run in the 10's in E/SA. All you guys have to do is find a good engine builder, buy a good trans and converter, make sure your cars are as good as they can be and then start flogging to gain hundreths at a time. As far as my combination I don't think it's particularly favorable as there are at least 6 or 7 E/SA cars in the country that are faster than me.

Oh by the way I do happen to know a good engine builder in Dayton if you're interested.
And for my signature I don't know how to change the number Kenny did that a couple of years ago.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

I think there were a few more 5.7's. PB Candies (who has SS/BA Mustang # 13 also has Challenger # 13 and it is a 5.7. I will try to get the numbers. I just hope Greg don't send me a mail bomb. Don't take that wrong. Greg and I are good friends and there is nothing a couple of cases of beer won't cure.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Greg,

1) Didn't mean to make it personal
2) Its DARYL not DARRELL
3)Yes,we have the slowest cars in the country!
4)We have a good engine builder,thank you!
5)Yes,we have a good converter and transmission builder,thanks again!
6)Running in the 10's does NO good when some are 10.50!
7) We try our best to run as competitively as possible within budget and stay LEGAL!
8) WE DO spend money....I just spent $800 for some front wheels!
9) ANY heads up race and WE are DEAD!
10)What does this have to do with WHINING about bogus horsepower factors???
(I didn't start the thread)
You should be HAPPY that YOU have cars in your division like ours that YOU can beat easily,even though there are SOME being built that can beat you easily!

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

This is a very funny post.As far as #7 goes you do have the option to protest anyone you feel is "Enhanced".
Maybe using the money for #8 could have bought some HP for your car.
If #s 4 and 5 are true why are you so slow?
This has been a very amusing Sunday in the land of make believe.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Does anybody realize that if there are no faster cars than you there is absolutly no incentive to work harder and go faster?

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Art. Incentive is not the issue here. there isn't anything any "old" stocker can do to run with one of theses new cars. nothing short of stopping it from getting to the starting line.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

HP numbers are totally arbitrary.........A car is looking like it's real fast compared to others in it's class if it is factored way wrong.

LT-1's in 1996-1997 were doing the same thing. They were at something like 275 or 285 when new.....Now they are at 346.......


I had a G-H/SA '69 Nova for a short stint back then.....not very fast but I was working on it slowly.....Saw one of those early LT-1's run in the 11.20's and 11.1's at one race at Maple Grove. It was in either G or H/SA at the time......Felt like the old cars were done...sold the Nova.....It took a while but the LT-1's continued to get HP and now they are about even or maybe a little down to some cars they run against today....and they run much higher on the class ladder....

The DP's and Mustangs appear to be at least as improperly HP rated as the LT-1's were........

If NHRA had a Tech Dept with any integrity....they'd step in and make some corrections to make it a more level playing field.....

Their biggest problem is they have no classes to stick these cars in.....unless they are forced into Super stock and that is realy where they belong....

A Stocker that can run 145 mph is not a Stocker.....

A new model Stocker that can run more than 1 second under on the brakes on the newly lowered indexes......has a bogus HP factor.....

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Rich,

You in this thread and others in other threads have all pointed out great examples of the self-correcting nature of HP factoring...Run fast Sunday, get HP Monday... But nobody is really arguing against your point. Are the HP factors "fair", probably not entirely... But like with the LT-1s, the system is in place and in time it won't be an issue anymore.

What I am saying is that while everyone who feels wronged is calling the NHRA names, and questioning the integrity of the Tech staff (talk about poking a beehive with a stick...do you guys realize how counterproductive that could be? Never mind... Keep it up..I want to tech through before you do, since they probably won't be in a good mood when they get to you..) the system is at work, and CJs and 6.1 DPs already have taken hits. So most of us know it is just a matter of time before the balance is again achieved..

Once again, hold your breath and stamp your feet,if you wish. But it is simply a matter of time before the winds of change blow over these cars, and they no longer threaten your sense of fairness. But don't get used to that feeling. Because then we will be on to the next generation of direct injection/variable timing, etc, etc....and the cries of OMG it isn't fair to the rest of us....

Life isn't fair. But it can be fun, if you let it...

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

may i once again reiterate... the Automatic Help For Slugs (AHFS) cannot and will not EVER work... been saying that same damn sentence for 6 years...no body EVER listens to me they just think im old & stupid

if we dont get a HP "committee" to fix this bogus **** we will cease to exist.

oh by the way an all new car national event is on the way indy, maybe as soon as 2011... just what NHRA wants ... new cars, lots of factory support and lots of heads ups... and we the old guys will be running nostalgia at the good guys race the following weekend.

captain jack

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Jack, I don't think you are old and stupid. But I don't agree with you.

The system looks like it works, it just takes time..

As for the Good Guys thing, that actually sounds like fun to me...

I took my 70 Challenger 440 6PAK convertible (my summer driver) to a Good Guys Blue Suede Cruise event and had a pretty good time.
I got all sideways in a heads up run, but didn't break anything, so for me, that is fun.

And they really know how to honor old hardware too.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

More than 10 years and more than 50 HP.... Yah, the system works *great*. :rolleyes: So how long do you think it'll take to get the new cars anywhere in the right zipcode?

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Good point but that was for GM cars, it may take only 5yrs for the FORDS
Dale

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Dats what I'm talkin bout there... Michael........

Don't worry.....be happy!!!!..... and just say "Ohmmmmm" or "Serenity Now" especially if you gotta headsup with a Mustang or a decent runnin DP...

Maybe there's a "Big Picture" and us old guys are not seein it!!!! LOL!!!

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Would take about 15 minutes if Farmer Dismuke was still around.....

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Daryl, be thankful Greg Hill hasn't built an Olds like yours.

Come on man. You are making claims that aren't based on research or logic.

Take a break. See you at the races. Jim

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Dont forget these cars were put into there own class (FI) for most of the 10yrs until the HP got sorted out!!

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

I wont disagree with the HP Ratings, nuther issue all together, but take a Chally SRT8, pop in a cam with a healthy duration, pull the exhausts , change the gear and converter and throw a tune on it and itll run 10.5 flat all day long, WITH the IRS and pulling at 4000 LB.

I personally know 2 who are doing it with their daily drivers, he touched in the 10.8 last year. And he was heavier (Charger) His MPH was over 135 (cant remeber but I wanna say 138) And hes running through the mufflers.

What makes that not a stocker ? The damm thing is nearly bone stock and his daily driver, no funky cam, no "special" things, a tune, headers, converter and gears ? AND at 4300+ Lbs..... His target is 10.5 in daily trim, hell get it there.

Im dissapointed the SRT8 isnt in the guides, right now Super Street would be its only home.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

An update on the 5.7 hemi motor. I just looked at the 2007 5.7 hemi in the engine specs on the NHRA site. The specs are not complete but it shows 10.5 to 1 compression, 2.00/ 1.55 valves, cam lift 482/ 470 and a hp rating of 345. I know this motor doesn't have an intake or throttle body like the crate motor and it's 40 hp more.

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

If there are new assembly line or special production cars made in the proper amount for acceptance......that are capable of running 145mph after a normal Stocker type preperation......Their HP rating should be rated at least somewhere close to correct.

Up untill just a few years ago the highest class Stockers barely went 130mph.

That was after numerous "enhancements" and various improvements in engines and drivelines.


If new engine technology is head and shoulders above the old cars......their HP ratings should reflect that....


I have never seen any "Daily Drivers" in near stock condtion run in the 10's.....My idea of a Daily Driver means it is not really just a race car making believe it's a street car.........

I have seen a few Vipers and Corvettes run some pretty impressive numbers but not in the 10's........speeds were under 130 and they were driven to the track. I've seen some boosted street driven imports run some fast numbers as well but nowhere near 145.........

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

Rich, you should check out some of the new LS3 Corvettes, several in the 10's with nothing but headers, converter, tune and some drag radials

Re: Yet another bogu horsepower factor
 

have never seen any "Daily Drivers" in near stock condtion run in the 10's.....My idea of a Daily Driver means it is not really just a race car making believe it's a street car.........

Go buy an SRT8, change converter and headers, and you will all day long.

Ive got an armrest full of timeslips up to 120 in BONE STOCK Trim.

Hell the old man just ran a 13 flat on STOCK Tune. BONE Stock....we forgot to throw a "tune" on it 100% as from the factory.

Converter and Gears.... easy into low 11's Gears on the SRT8s are tall and with 20 in rubber doggy..

Throw some 18 drag radials on it, low 12s 100% STOCK.

Next ?

Then again I guess weve been poundig the piss outta the new hemis, and throwing rods and lunching heads, and on and on.

A Friggin JEEP SRT8 RIGHT Off the SHOWROOM Is good for low 13's at damm near 4500 LBS !

I have a solution!
 

Take 1hp off the NHRA factor for each year of the cars age.
that should make the '60's muscle cars competitive again.
(might make some 55 chevys happy.)