oil retention devices
 

From: Bob Lang
Sent: Tue 3/23/2010 9:11 AM
To: Jeff Teuton; Jim Bailey; Jim Mantle; Jimmy DeFrank; Kent Hanley; Mike Crutchfield; Monty Jones
Subject: Oil Retention

Hello all,

I have been talking with the NHRA Stock - Super Stock Committee and they are in favor of oil retention device for the Super Stock in 2011 and Stock in 2012. Two main reasons I want them, one is to solve the problem of blowing an engine and getting oil under the tires resulting in loss of control and obviously to help with keeping the oil off the race track.

With that said, there are a number of problems with standard Super Stock and Stock cars as far as fit up and clearance to the frame, headers, starters and the list goes on, along with the ability to service the car.

I am seeking input as far as how we can make these retention devices work for all of us.

Thank you


Bob Lang
NHRA Northeast Division Director
366 Easton Road
Warrington, PA. 18976
Phone - 215-343-2558
Fax 215-343-0159
Website – nhradiv1.com
Are you an NHRA member yet? Join today! http://www.NHRA.com/join.html







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Message Thread:

Re: oil retention devices
 

I don't like this ideal and hope it doesn't happen, but who am I ...I just race a fwd stocker. I've been a fan of Stock/Super Stock since1975, and in all of those years, I've seldom (if ever) seen/heard of any of our cars oiling a track. The cars that have them now, are the cars that should have them...not our categories! Am I alone in this opinion?

Re: oil retention devices
 

What if I promise not to blow my engine up?

Re: oil retention devices
 

I would imagine getting a retention devise (catchy name eh?) would be a real engineering feat on a FWD car.

Re: oil retention devices
 

You've got that right Ed....

Re: oil retention devices
 

NHRA can always say I don't care about your chassis problems and say make it fit like they did with the muffler rule back in the late 90's. A lot of super gassers, streeters etc.. had to make big modifications to their flooring and chassis's to get the Borla XR1's to fit properly.

Re: oil retention devices
 

And if I remember it right......only the SS and S guys had the stones to tell NHRA to piss up a rope!

Rick

Re: oil retention devices
 

SPS I am not going to get into arguements over this,But you are wrong we have done several of these cars at least 50 drag links in pan, to headers 1/8 th of a inch from pan .This is all we do is build diapers so I do take this statement to be offensive.We have sold over 6500 diapers many on Comp,Stock and Super Stock Like I said I will not get in a pissing mach over this if someone wants help with diapers call me This will be my last post on this thread Thanks

Re: oil retention devices
 

Diaperman -- Sorry but it just looks bad you posting on this subject as you're the only one to benefit if this new rule comes into play and we all have to pay .Glad you're not going to post more on this ..............let it up to the rules makers .

Re: oil retention devices
 

That's a classic!

Re: oil retention devices
 

Jack,

Respectfully, Dennis is not the only one to benefit. Everyone who blows a motor and can safely control their damaged car to a stop would benefit. I believe that was mentioned in the first post.

Steve

Re: oil retention devices
 

How about super stock cars that go in the air and touchs the oil pan on landing will a diaper hold up to this even if it only happens ocassionally and header clearance is also a problem . one of my tubes is on aboubt .060 from the oil pan what am i suppose to do go spend 2 k for headers this is a bs rule percentage wise there are not many oil downs from super stock cars i have been doing this a very long time some 30 plus years and maybe in that time i have seen 30 to 40 bad oil downs thats not to many a year do the math. just someone sticking there hand in my pocket again

Re: oil retention devices
 

Dear Bob&Dennis if you only listen to one person you should at least listen to the most qualified and I think FJ Smith is one who knows what he's talking about.Claude Ruel

Re: oil retention devices
 

I swore if we beat back the muffler rule I wouldn't complain about anything else; but in NHRA's infinite capacity to "milk" us they are indeed the gift that keeps on giving. In looking a various tight fits, and including our tie rods that goes through the pan, mfgs keep telling us they can fit anything, any minute gap they can deal with...I question the "retention" capability of material that can squeeze through our tight spaces, and or gaps caused by tie rods etc, between round maintenance, and loose material getting caught up in steering etc

It does indeed "smell" like a revenue enhancer (I assume replacements every two years like seat belts...what a joke) NHRA tried to "sell" us mufflers with multiple articles on it being a performance gain (as well as sound)....the credibility they lost on that and other Sportsman issues negate their "concern" over our safety (like sending us down damp foggy tracks at 10PM or later to get the race in)...so if they want to mandate a revenue stream, just do it....don't tell us your concerned about our safety

I was prepared to quit over mufflers, not so much on this, but I don't like it. The name change from diapers to oil rention devices is straight out of Madison Ave...cute, but a rose is still a rose

Re: oil retention devices
 

I have already sent pictures of one of our SS/AH cars underneath. The real conflict as I see it is you can have oil retention or steering. I don't see both on one car. Today I am going to take pictures of Kevin Helms 69 Camaro 396 to see how much fun that would be. We asked for data on just how oil down's in S/SS are hurting before jumping into a decision (should I say mufflers). I and several others have expressed opinions on this matter to Bob Lang. It is being touted as a safety device and there is always a chance of getting oil on the rear tires from an engine problem. To me the bigger problem that I have asked for and documented for the last 15 years is steering on the Stock and especially SS that goes through the pan and headers. Add a nice wheelstand and 160 MPH. No we don't need rack-and-pinion steering!!! We average a couple of steering boxes a year on our cars. That is more of a safety hazard than oil in my opinion. Another knee-jerk reaction.

Re: oil retention devices
 

Gary has the right idea. Before each S/SS session, the starter shall say "Raise your right hand ( thats the one close to the shifter) and repeat after me "I promise not to oil the track." Done deal. I love it when a plan comes together.

Re: oil retention devices
 

My 69 camaro BBC super stocker has a DRE diaper on it and it fits like a glove. I guess there's no need to bother with the Helms's 396 camaro as a diaper will fit it without a doubt.

To those who wheelstand and are worried about it then don't do it. Run it like that Fine 409 and Highway car and you'll be all set and SUPER consistent.

Someone mentioned risk factor and being a wimp. Think about who's cleaning it up. It's not you. It's the owner of the facility at his cost.

All you have to do is call a worthwhile diaper manufacturer and they'll get it figured out for you.

Re: oil retention devices
 

For this to be taken seriously, and I'm willing to take it as a serious promise, there have to be consequences if the promise is broken. What are the consequences that people are willing to put with if they promise not to oil the track and then they do?

Re: oil retention devices
 

Based on the letter from Lang attached to this post it sounds like the debate is over and it's now "how do we make it happen". Just another prime example why fishing looks better every day.

Oil retention on stockers is like changing seat belts every two years, is this **** really necessary?

I think back on how many times sitting in the staging lanes all strapped in watching a top oil down dragster pour fluids from one end to the other. I can only think of stocker that actually blew and dropped oil, and that person set the car by the wall so the clean up was condensed.

Tim

Re: oil retention devices
 

I don't like it, but if its going to happen, in the interest of safety, then it would seem natural that it apply to the faster cars that allready require additional $ and equipment....ie quicker than SS/JA for SS, and correspondingly fast Stock classes...remember in stock, if you are slow, you can still wear pajama pants.

Re: oil retention devices
 

Me to! Me to! Now let's race. Jim

Re: oil retention devices
 

Dave,the penalty is they would have to clean up the track themselves.Naked except for a NY Yankee hat.

Re: oil retention devices
 

Since it is probably being done as a money saving effort by NHRA, since they would save money on the manpower and materials needed to clean up oil downs, they should pay to have them installed on every Stock and Super Stock car!!!

I can tell you someone will have to be a real genius to make one fit properly under my cars.

Re: oil retention devices
 

Somebody send me an email address that can post a couple pictures on this channel. I got the cure, but I don't know how to get a picture on here. jefft@southlanddodge.com

Re: oil retention devices
 

I would like to see the data. How many S/SS cars oil down the track over the course of a year? If the NHRA can show us a real problem exists, then it should be considered, if not, don't institute it.

No one wants to spend money on stuff like this, or go through the trouble of fitting a new part that might be a pain in the ***, but at least take a look at the whole picture before being so negative. Most professional drivers hated the idea of the HANS at first, as it was cumbersome, however those who have used one (or a similar device), wouldn't get in a car without one now.

At least look at the data before crying foul. A rule like this could save your car and/or your life, or that of your competitor, but most of you will never blow and engine or crash so who cares, right?

Another solution would be a type of catch pan, which I believe is also legal. This would also improve aerodynamics and performance.

Re: oil retention devices
 

I promise never to blow up another engine....

Unless the egnine suffers some sort of unavoidable mechanical failure for which I am not personally responsible..... Like throwing a rod through the oil pan and side of the block again...it was an oil failure... not me...

Except for that I promise never to blow up another engine...

Yeah that should do it...

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: oil retention devices
 

I think this is like making all the kids in your 2nd grade class come back after lunch and write sentences all afternooon as a punishment for a couple kids that were talking too loud in the lunchroom.

Re: oil retention devices
 

mannymen is my real name no kidding (Manny Menchaca)!!! I do use the Moroso steel motor mounts as well as a front motor plate. Al if you're ever at a D3 race stop by and say hi. You can also look at my car (3112) and diaper as long as you want. Take pictures of the diaper as I have yet to do it. I just don't want to get taken out by somebody who blows their motor spraying oil all over. It has taken me 8 long years to build this car and I don't want to take out anybody elses car either. I've already lost one rare car due to a motor letting go. If the diaper fits the way it's supposed to then there's a slim chance that it will get caught anywhere and if you have that much room that it does fall then what's the complaint about getting it to fit. If you have any questions with the diaper burning or using stock motor mounts then Dennis at DRE can answer all of your questions. The diapers have protected areas that prevent them from burning.


I'm out on this issue

Re: oil retention devices
 

As we speak I have applied with the Obama administration to get funding for the
development of new blowout proof run flat front tires for the guys who've hit the brakes so hard that they have blown front tires and caused an accident.There have been a few of those incidents,hence the need for the new tires.
Also in the works is a new spring bumper (as in Coney Island bumping car) allowing your car to bounce harmlessly off your opponent and or side walls of the track.More to come...

Re: oil retention devices
 

Mannymen is right, DRE can build a diaper or oil retention devise to fit any car. !966 chevy 2 nova with drag link through center of oil pan. Fits like a glove. Fathers car is a '72 camaro with a big block in it. Header clearance to the oil pan is very tight. DRE diaper fits great. I will admit, not many S/SS cars blow engines, but when they do it's not pretty. D2 race at Gainesville had a super stocker blow up. No diaper and hour and a half clean up. But I don't run S/SS so I don't know all of the possible combinations.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike Griggs

Re: oil retention devices
 

Just curious as to the cost of an oil retention device? Plus what is everybody going to do....send their cars out and have a custom made diaper installed. It's not like this is going to be a one size fits all deal. Wonder how much that would cost? I'm not exactly thrilled about this proposed rule change.

Re: oil retention devices
 

I would love to see the data as well. I just get the feeling that this requirement is based on a SWAG and not any real data. If I made diapers, I too would want this, but I don't. This sounds like the government. Someone made a decision that impacts a lot of people in a negative fashion, but there are unintended consequences that NHRA has not considered. Now maybe I am jumping the gun since NHRA has not put out anything on their site. If they have some data that makes a logical case, I would just be quiet and order mine too.

I just have a hard time remembering an oil down for a stocker that held up the show. I mean, we could add a lot of safety equipment to stockers that sound good in theory but won't make a difference. Why this one?

Re: oil retention devices
 

OK Guys, now is the time to be Heard, write you letters to NHRA with good logical reasons that this will be a hardship on Stock and Superstock racers as a whole and not just your combination. There are some that this would not be to hard on and others that this would just about be impossible, especialy with out a lot of cutting up of Frames, headers, and steering.
I would also like to see the data of downtime for these classes from NHRA, i know its all about TV time but is it the Stock/Superstock cars that are creating this problem? You have to realize these guys making these decisions, know nothing about a Stock/Superstock car!

Re: oil retention devices
 

I agree with you Woodro except for the use of the word "some" in the last sentence.

Re: oil retention devices
 

OK Art, read again!

Re: oil retention devices
 

Ryan save your coin becuase after this passes what do you think will be next? mandatory HANS DEVICE probably or maybe fire proof gloves and boots to match my jacket and pants.

Re: oil retention devices
 

Guys...bracket racers in some divisions has been doing this for two or so years. There are lots of bracket racers with stock front sub frames that have addressed every issue brought up in this thread and moved forward and installed diapers. It is not that big of a deal....been there done it.

Re: oil retention devices
 

I don't know about the possibility of trays in stockers, but we use trays in my comp car and my partner's dragster.

Re: oil retention devices
 

I'm a MoPar guy. I would like to see how a diaper is going to be effective with the A or F body with the tie rod through the oil pan? With all due respect to you Comp and bracket guys who say " It can't be too hard to make them work", you don't know what you are talking about! Comp and Bracket cars don't have to retain STOCK suspensions and steering. There would have to be major rules changed and lots of money passed around to allow aftermarket K frames and motor plates and rear steer rack and pinion steering! And a tray on a Stocker? Nope. I also want to see the statistics that support the need for instituting this rule. Just because the Super .90 cars have to have them is not good enough reason. The Pro cars have had to have them for several years now. How is that working out? Pretty much stopped all the oil downs didn't it? NOT! Call and write your Division offices and Glendora and voice your opinion on this. If we all just sit back and do nothing this will become a rule and once again we will be enhanced! Jim

Re: oil retention devices
 

Now this I can understand.



Hey NHRA,
We sell Cal-Tracs, can you please make them mandatory on all leaf spring cars in competition?

T/S, T/D, S/C, and S/G oil the track 25 to 1 over S/SS.

Anyone who attends more than 5 NHRA/IHRA races knows that.