Once again a bogus combination
 

Examining these crate motor combinations is really eye opening. I did a little research on the 352 Ford crate motor that is in the guide at 285 hp. I compared it to a crate motor that Ford racing sells to the public that is 347 cubic inches and is rated at 450hp.

1. They both have the same heads M-6049=Z304DA. I couldn't find the runner volumes for these heads in the NHRA specs but I would bet they are substantial.

2. The compression ratio on the 352 is 11.25 to 1, the 347 is 9.7 to 1.

3. The cam in the 352 is a solid roller with .575/.575 lift. The one in the 347 is a hydraulic roller with .580/.602 lift.

4. The valve size on the 352 is 2.08/ 1.60. The valve size on the 347 is 2.02/1.60.

5. The throttle body on the 352 is 1000 cfm. The 347 is rated with a 650 Holley that is not included in the package.

Look at the specs. How can the 352 be at 285 if the 347 is less potent and is rated at 450. This is what NHRA and Ford are doing. The 352 is 165 hp less with weaker specs.

Wake up folks. These crate motor cars can run anywhere from AA to M.

Oh and one other thing the runner volumes I just found on Ford racing's own site are 204 cc's on the intake and 85 on the exhaust.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Wake up to what? Its no secret. Just like the LT1-LS1 days. It'll all work out it just takes longer with shoe polish.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

We will all be dead and gone by the time these things are correct.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Im with you on this. The older cars and racers (stock and S/S) are "Dead" and dont even know it yet.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

so greg...
what class does your ford van / truck/ mini van thing fit with the 352 crate motor ???

now that would be a cool stocker even i could like... it's almost a station wagon :)

jack

sorry i couldnt resit !

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

After reading the specs. per Greg, it's obvious that Ford surely has a master plan....$$$. Win on Sunday (by using bogus HP factors to spank the competition) and sell on Monday. The sad thing is that the majority of the "fans in the stands" are gullible enough to believe that what they see on the track is what they get at the dealer.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Crate motors and NHRA......priceless!

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Greg give it up.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

That's exactly what I was thinking...

The crate motors can't run AA-M... they can run A-M/CRATE MOTOR in IHRA!

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Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

I'm glad someone finally said it.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

The official truck of the NHRA is what ?

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

That 352 is in the class guide as a motor available in 2010 Mustangs, it can run in stock, superstock and GT classes.

I'm gonna get one.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Fun with a National Event in 2013 or thereabouts:

Announcer:
"Ok, next up we have Stock Eliminator. Today we have a qualified field of 64 cars in the staging lanes. Now all these cars may appear to be very similar or even identical in some cases but I can assure you they absolutely are not. For the record, about half of them are Challengers and the other half are Mustangs. Great looking cars aren't they. Although they all may look very similar, I can guarantee you they aren't. Look at all the different paint jobs with the great graphics."

"Well now, here is our first pair, of er uh Mustangs, now look at the wheels on these cars and tell me that we aren't looking at highly differentiated race cars. The Mustang in the left lane has Weld wheels with custom graphics and the Mustang in the right lane went for the classic look with no graphics and MT wheels. Wow what a race. And next up we have a Challenger and a Mustang going at it - some great OEM competition here folks. Notice the racing stripes on both cars. The red Chally has opted for white racing stripes while the black Mustang has opted for big old honk'n gold stripes...Whoaaa."

Now, 30 pairs later...... "we'll wrap up this round by watching a pair of Challengers square off. Now tell me this isn't neat ladies and gentlemen - we started this round with a pair of Mustangs and we are finishing up with a pair of Challengers...how about that." "Who would'a thunk it."

Old saying: People who embrace a dictated future will suffer a fool's result.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

[QUOTE=Bruce Noland;

Old saying: People who embrace a dictated future will suffer a fool's result.[/QUOTE]

I couldnt have come up with a better reply than this for you Ken than this quote......lol.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Thanks so much for the support and all the letter-writing advocating bringing Crate Motor cars to NHRA. They have been the future since 1995, so again, thank you for embracing them! Crate Motor cars make up a big percentage of the field in this region, so it stands to reason that the fields will be enhanced even more in NHRA, strengthening the fundamentals going forward, and taking them to the next level. I understand that NHRA will be bringing them into the fold at the factory ratings, to keep things fair for everyone. (ie., my 360 Magnum will revert to the factory rating of 300HP, rather than 325HP)

Sorry, thought my calendar said April 1, not 15. Seriously? I got "enhanced", "fundamentals", "going forward", and "the next level" all in one sentence. That's a winner right there! (It's unfortunate that I have to even state this, but unfortunately I've encountered some... reading comprehension impaired individuals in the past: Yes, this post was sarcastic.)

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Sea change: in the '50's, Chevy stovebolts effectively eliminated Olds, Hudsons etc, then the early 60's found MoPars and 409's making inroads, but later in that decade the lanes full of '55-'57 Chevs gave way to Camaro's (mostly) with a few Mustangs, Cudas, Challengers.

It seems as if Camaros of '67-'71 held sway until the GT rules, then the F.I. stuff and now another sea change: lanes full of current Mustangs and Challengers

I'm sure each group that got "pre-empted" felt wronged. Ford stepped up with money and money talks.....I'm not sure winning on Sunday translates to Monday sales especially when we generally on the track when no one is in the stands

As an aside, of all the Mustangs and Challengers sold, where are they? I thought Ford's intent was that they be raced not collected.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

.....I'm not sure winning on Sunday translates to Monday sales especially when we generally on the track when no one is in the stands


This statement is so true, not just for NHRA but also NASCER too!!

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

At least in every instance that you mentioned the prior offerings were "pre-empted" by actual cars that existed and could be purchased and driven on the street in stock form. None of the current Cobra Jets or Drag Packs can be purchased at any dealership and driven off the lot in stock form. There is a major difference with these cars than any that you compared them to.

This would mean that they are not adhering to the spirit of "Stock Eliminator." They are more akin to Super Stock or Modified Production. The late model fuel injected Firebirds and Camaros were underrated when they came onto the scene, but they were relegated to fuel injected classes until their horsepower was corrected to fairly reflect what they should.

At a bare minimum the NHRA should relegate the Cobra Jets and Drag Packs to a sub class within Stock Eliminator until their adjusted horsepower is more accurate.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Well, call me a fool. I would rather be a fooled racer than a spectator that hasn't been fooled. With all do respect to Terry and Bruce, we are friends, but you guys do not race NHRA, I do.

I'm having fun and its obvious your not. The old days are gone, and if you don't like what NHRA has done you need not support them. I can respect that, but you guys never have a good word for NHRA and it just gets kind of old.

I maybe a fool, but I am a happy fool:D

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

I believe that you really believe the 352 Crate ford is dead on @285HP:rolleyes::eek:

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

There is an old saying that "you can't be a victim if you volunteer". Ken is simply saying precisely that; if you don't like what the NHRA is doing, then don't participate.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

There is gonna be room out here for all of us. After the next couple races, there might be some adjustments to make some people happy, some people mad, and some people are never happy. I can speak from expereience that the Challenger is a real chore to get to the track, and I think we know what we are doing. There will be some that will never be started, but it won't be from choice. I think if I started today building a new Challenger and a new 69 Super Bee 6 pack, I could get the 6-pak to the track sooner. A SS/AH would take a little longer, and who wants one anyway. Just the thoughts of a guy who is too old and should quit.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Ken

How long are you going to be happy when you keep getting your *** beat by the new underrated Mustangs & Challenger????????

Hammer

I love Ford Loyalty

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Ken, I wont call you a fool but the numbers are not higher than ever for entry into a
National event Look at the these two events!!
Houston SS Class race 100 car quota only 54 entered 53 actually qualified
Vegas Stock Class race and always has large number of cars only 72 stockers
out of 120 quota And this is a All Out Race Track no AHFS in play, Where in the
world are you getting your info from ???
Last years Vegas 1 race and not a class race had 105 cars entered.
Vegas 2 Race was a Class race with 132 cars entered and this is only stock.

How can you sit there and write that the numbers are higher this year ?

#746 E/SA
Bob Aceves
A&M motorsports

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Ken....Its not the new technology, or the newer body styles that gets these guys upset. Its the bogus BS horsepower ratings. I like the new stuff but they should be classed either by themselves (like the FI cars of a few years ago) until the AHFS takes care of them or be rated higher by both associations. The fact that they are not show room avaliable dosent bother me either. A lot of cool stockers of today were not really avaliable they way they are being raced today but at least they are in thier correct class (or close). Im not bashing NHRA over this but they do seem to dragging thier feet to correct the problem. Somebody sure as heck hasent been watching the store. The only people who are really happy about these new combos are the fortunate few who can afford one and have been able to aquire one. As far as racing Im (1) to old now except to do it for fun and (2) my retirement $$$ dosent go as far as a real pay check. By the way dont be surprised to see me out there again fairly soon. I like to give it one more blast before I croak but it sure wont be in one of the higher classes as much as I would like one. Im not far from Bradenton and Gaineville and the local stock S/S circuits look like the way to go for me.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Jeff,
Hang in there buddy,
This is one of those deals that nobody can agree on,
sort of like the pit bulls are great pet argument.


See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Hey pit bulls do make good pets. Just as Michael Vick!!

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Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

I'm with Ken on this one, I had a ball at Atco and have yet to race and get beat by one of the new cars. Sure they are fast but until the fill the field everyone has a shot at winning. I am as afraid to race one of them as they are of me. Bring it on and lets have some fun.
I refuse to dwell on what could be when I am having to much fun with what I have. Lots of racers are behind Ken but find this argument laborious and petty.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Kenny, how many times have you been beat by one of the new mustangs or challengers year to date?

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Spoken like a real Super Fan.

Some people forget that this racing thing is about people. For many of us it is also about visiting with our friends and enjoying a good day of competition. It kinda sours the deal when you have to compete with cars that everyone on this earth knows makes 150 horsepower more than your car. Also, I don't think anyone should be so arrogant as to tell us to stay home if we don't like the cards we have been dealt. It takes away from the purpose of this site to issue such proclamations.Todate we have no say in this horsepower issue but that may change in the future.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

I cannot speak for 1999, but Houston 2010 only contested Super Stock. Several of the cars entered that made up the 53 were stockers and one of them was a Drag Pack Challenger of Jeff Teuton's that ripped off a 10.48 in SS/KA! Looking a bit closer, SS/KA looks like the Drag Pack's natural class. :)

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Never in eliminations, once in Class. Right now anyone that runs AA or A have the best chance at running these new combo's. Even then the chances are slim. Dave Ficacci lost heads to a DP in the fourth rd at Charlotte, but I do not know of anyone else losing in the eliminator to a new combo.

Dgal,

Give me some time, I can spin numbers with the best of them. Tomorrow I will show some numbers and lets see how you can turn them around. Some racers and none racers are hell bent in seeing NHRA fail, I'm not.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

Bruce great point, we should all be flooding NHRA with letters about the new cars HP rating not beating the snot out of each other on this site. If the new cars continue to be rated as they are I would (if I had an AA or A/SA) request the original factor on my car to make for a closer playing field. I know of an older AA/SA car that was aproved and then hit 10 HP before it even ran, now that is nonsense. But arguing amoung ourselves and not writing massive letters/emails to NHRA will go no where. Until it changes my biological clock is running and I am going racing.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

This whole deal is about money. It's about NHRA being for sale. It's about John Force having 4 Mustang Funny car teams without which NHRA would not survive. It's about selling out people who have been supporting the organization for 25 to 30 years. It's about NHRA getting Ford cars and trucks for the management and staff for free. It's about lining the pockets of top management and board members.

Any of you who think these cars are rated fairly are either in denial or just plain ignorant. And by the way don't tell me I don't race. 2008, 5 Nationals, 2 Sports Nationals, 7 points races and 3 National Opens, plus any combo races I could get to.

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I'm just glad to be here.Also glad to do the things i do. I'm in no ways as fast as anyone in my class. I would like to be ,but it ain't gonna happen. So i'll just keep on waiting for that ***** whooping and lick my wounds and wait for the next race i can go to.I learned a long time ago this is for fun . And we do need NHRA & IHRA as long as they can hang around.It's hard to swallow that the old days are indeed long gone but not forgotten.Have FUN guys and gals. Good Luck to everyone.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

There was no spin in my post. Just facts.

By the way, when a company files bankruptcy it doesn't mean that the pension evaporates. Pensions are covered by the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation) since 1974. The current maximum benefit guarantee is $4,500 per month for a 65 year old straight life annuity ($4,050 for a joint life and 50% survivor annuity) if certain conditions are met.

If it is a 401k, then the assets are separate and held in trust. Only the participants that hold company stock in their 401k are sunk to the amount in the company stock which has limitations.

Re: Once again a bogus combination
 

I did not know I was dealing with a lawyer. Lighten up Dgal, I was just trying to inject a little humor into a thread that's has none.

Thanks for your advice, but I was trying to make a point. And for the record, the companies I am talking about went bankrupt and out of business in the 40's and 50's not 1974.

Gees, your way to serious. Do you always just deal in facts, or is fun not an option.