Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

A thread awhile back spoke about this last week, but I just watched the final of Super Stock between Brad Plourd, and Justin Lamb (ESPN'S coverage of the recent Las Vegas national event), and cameras don't lie...they showed two frozen shots of the finish line between the two cars, and Brad the nose of your car was at the back of the finish line stripe, while Justin's was just getting at the middle of it. However looking at the bodies as opposed to how much they covered the tires I can see why you lost...Justin's frontal area was lower than yours, thus allowing the ground effects of his cars nose to trip the finish line beam ahead of your front tire. You had the reaction time advantage by .007, and if your frontal area was 1-2" lower, than that outcome would've been reversed...that's messed up, because you lost a race you should've won!

The same can be said of the Super Gas final, because Dennis Paz's Willys clearly beat Mike Ferderers Grand Am to the stripe, but since Paz's Willys didn't have the ground effects that Ferderers Grand Am had, the nose of Mikes car tripped the beam sooner that Dennis's front tire...that's a bummer for both Dennis and Brad.

I wish either the rules committee would either ask N.H.R.A., to either raise the height of the sensor at the finish line so that older cars could use their frontal area to trip the finish line too, or that they'd lower them so that the winner will once again trip the finish line with their front tire ONLY...like they used to! Dan Fletcher lost a race he should've won (that he spoke about in is dragster article not long ago), because of the same thing. I spoke with an NHRA tech guy over this last week, and thus now feel they probably won't do anything to equalize this (even though they should), but I think it's messed up...what's fair for some, should be fair for all, right??? How does everybody else feel about it. I think I know how Dan, Brad, and Dennis feel about it!!! My .02 worth

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

These cars with the magical front ends have been around now for almost 20 years. and some of the third gen F bodies can also trip the beams with the nose if the front tires are small enough, so make that 25 years. This is nothing new. Anyways if they lower the beams so the front ends cant trip the beams, great. I'm all for it.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

I noticed the same thing, that finish line shot showed it really well. They need to lower the beam for sure!

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Ouch

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Put a "stripe taker" flap on your car, if that is legal in the class. Al it takes is a small piece of aluminum underneath the front of the bumper to make sure you get the infra-reds to "see you car".

We put them on the Cutlass and it is about the same distance as a newer Camaro now and it trips the light whether I am on the brakes or on the gas. Needs to be about 5" off the ground in most cases at the stripe.

Try it, you'll like it.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

That low front end is a two edged sword unless your car does it every time. It can also cause you to break out if you're not expecting it.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

No "stripe takers" allowed in stock / superstock. Tech will make you take it off right away.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

We would need to build a retractable one. Do you think Q from the British MI6 squad could come up with something? It surely couldn't be any harder to build than the rotating license plates on James Bond's Aston Martins!

Seriously, maybe they do need to consider lowering the beam.
I was talking to my Buddy again the other night that lost the Pittsburgh Raceway Park track championship when he raced his bike against a car with a stripe taker. I told him it was being discussed on this site.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Anyone know if there is a youtube video of it?

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

I'm going to post basically exactly what I posted over on DRR... this should be a non issue. Everybody goes down the same track on any given weekend. you drive YOUR car be responsible for it. take the time to study your car and how it works. Pay attention to other cars at the track. It is completely and totally YOUR responsibility to pay attention to the little details like what is going to take the stripe on any given car. stop blaming others for your lack of effort in studying your sport. There is way more to this sport than hitting the tree and running the number get used to it...

Brad Hawk

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Yes this is no ones fault but my own. I caught him earlier than expected and I didn't need to be a "hero" down there. I am in the process of figuring out ways to take the stripe everytime with the nose, like Lamb's car. Sucks it cost me a National win to finally do something about it.

Hawk is correct, when we stage...we accept all aspects of our cars.

My car is already so low it is difficult to load into the trailer, so I'm not exactly sure what I'm gonna do. I did have my front end looser with 0lbs on nose because of no air in Vegas so that might have played a role too.

Getting sun burned in La Paz, Mexico...what an amazing place.

Seeya in St Louis...

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Yeah Dennis, OUCH for you and Brad is correct. It was bad enough reading in ND recently about Dan Fletchers loss due to that, but to see your race and Brads...that's cold blooded man! I hope the people who are in the rules committee read my thoughts, and everyone elses too, because that wasn't right...the points and the money you & Brad missed out on (due to not fault of yours other than not having a low enough front end is what I'm getting at)! They've always said that there's strength in numbers, so if enough of us contact Glendora (like I already did with Fletchers ordeal), then maybe this will change. Maybe cars like this have been around for 10-15yrs, but not with outcomes like those you and Brad & Fletch went thru....Greg Luneack nearly lost his Allstars final when his opponent tried to do the same thing last year, but fortunately his tire nipped the other guys front end!

You stage a car with the tires, the race should finish with the tires too!!! Again my .02 worth...

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Nope Steve, Brad ran .032 over his 8.86 dial, and his front end was closer to the lowest edge of his tire...he would've probably run an 8.87 (at the quickest), due to that.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Justin and myself have had a few discussions about how low he runs his cars and I have had to replaced the belly pan and have to bend back the collectors on the headers about every other race but Justin insist that the front has to be that low in order to trip the finish line beams the same every run. Well I guess it paid off in the end. We knew at the race that Justin had got the win because of the setup of his racecar vs. Brads. Jeff Foster said as soon as the ESPN guys saw the replay they called over to the tower and had them look at it. Jeff said that it is up to the competitor to know what is tripping the beams on there racecar, either the front end or the tires. Of course we learned this the hard way Justin lost to Tony Defrank in AZ. when he first started racing Super Stock and he knew that he was ahead but the clocks showed the win in the other lane, someone brought a picture over and it clearly shows that Justin's old 84 Camaro was 2ft ahead but that his front end was 7 to 8 inchs high which caused the front tires to trip the beams. We also discovered at that time that the old car when he was on the brakes would trip the beam with the front end which could also cause a breakout a double edge sword. So know one of the first thing Justin does is make sure that under acceleration the front of his cars are not over 5 inchs high going down track, you will see that he even has a stripe taker on his super gas roadster.

Chris lamb

BTW I have been told that the finish beams are set at 5 to 6 inchs

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Brad I wish you better luck in St Louis, but I'll offer you another angle on why I disagree with Brad Hawk (and think you're falsely blaming yourself):

If you get a chance to see the finish line freeze frame of your cars frontal area as opposed to his, you'll see that the lowest edge of the nose of your car was nearly even with the most forward point of your front tire (maybe 1-2" lower than the center of your wheel). However, his lowest point of that same area was nearly equal to the lowest part of his wheel. It looked to me like his frontal area was 3-5" lower than yours, thus giving him the advantage.

I'll be ok with your opinion of the race (I'll be re-watching it on my video tape), but it still doesn't make that right, because it wasn't a fair race (for you or Dennis Paz)...both of those races (the Super Gas & Super Stock Finals) started with the front tires, they should've finished it with them too!!!

Chris Lamb, I'm sorry that Justin lost that race he lost the same way, but that just adds more to the reason that the finish beams need to be the same height as the staging beams are...

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

I already had one designed in my head for my '97 Firebird.......would not have been very hard to make it happen. Could be used at the finishline with a momentary switch and only needed 12 volts and some fabrication time.


I did see a picture of a southern based stocker that appeared to have a stripe taker. I was not sure as it was just a picture........I thought it would have been easy to see as the car is a wheelstander and shows it's underside to the fence every run....


I agree with the post that it is your responsiblity to look at your opponents car and be very aware of the timing system. If you don't pay attention to these details you'll never win a race, except by luck......The timing system is what the races are judged on.....Untill they change it you have to know whats going on out there.

Comp cars and Pro Stockers have been using low noses or "cow catchers" for years..........

I've been bitten twice with the low nose breakout deal.....I considered it my fault for not doing something about it......

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Isn't there a blurb in the rule book about SS cars " must retain original ride height" or something to that effect.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Not trying to be jerk, I'm surprised this is being complained about. Haven't seen a rule in black and white about start with tire and finish with tires. Kind of sounds trivial.First year at Cajun 1 of the Warners tried to dip in as he was behind and didn't break out and didn't win. You can dial for the dive if that is you game plan. I tried diving with the Monte but didn't dial for it and I was late but it didn't work as I broke out. B Hawk has a valid point. Know what your doing and know what your opponent can do from start to finish. You will have a better win loss ratio. But this knowledge can make you a better bracket racer but we all know s/ss racers are not bracket racers because of tear down, class indexs, and so on.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Hello Jeff Stout!


Is the old 405 Smallblock still running? I hope it is. I still have the video of the Monte Carlo making a 9 second run stored on my computer........Rich

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Hey Rich, Its running very well. Had Speir Head Service work the manifold over. Waiting for it's return and removed 130 lbs from Monte. Can't say enough about how good this motor has been. I wish second gear was not broke on that pass on Passtime as I felt 9.20 in Tucson altitude would have made me very happy. Thanks for asking. Want my my autograph? LOL Jeff

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Great we have guys locking the brakes at the stripe now we'll have cars scraping the stripe totally off. Maybe there can be an award for the longest trail of sparks,lowrider style.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Jeff, that would be fine if all front ends were the same distance forward of the contact patch of the tire (and the same height above the ground), but they're not. It would be a non-issue if it was a tire to tire (start to finish) race. How can you adjust for a quicker run if you're best run isn't enough to offset the likely quicker run of an extended & low nose on your opponents car after he/she staged their car with the front tire...that's all I'm saying.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Your point is valid if it was a heads up race. But this race was not. The rules we have make sthis a fair race. So with knowing that then picking the best car, over hang, motor combo would need to be looked at to take advantage of the rules at hand and gain that .005 to .01 at that speed. But the final round you are talking about was not. It was a bracket race with dial ins and if one driver or the other was fender racing then the wrong part of the fender was being watched or maybe human error. This is meant as no disrespect for the drivers involved as they are top notch drivers for sure. They way it is , is the way it is with the rules we are given. I personally don't see a problem with the outcome.
Looking at the math Brad needed to find .006 to win. Now if Brads front end tripped the finish line he would have won (maybe) and looks like he had plenty of room before breaking out. If Justin wheel tripped the finish line instead of his front end like it appears to have happened then maybe Brad would have won. To many ifs to know for sure so the best thing to do is know what you have and what your opponent has.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Your point would be good too if they raced the exact type of car, but they didn't...you see no problem with the outcome, but when I see the nose of Brads car further ahead at the stripe than Justins, yet Justin got the win light due to the ground effects of his car being lower to the ground than Brads, that's the problem I see. Tires on both cars started the race, but ground effects ended the race for Justin, not the tire...thus not mono e mono.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

We will have to agree to disagree. Your Cavalier in your sig has a front spoiler that looks like it could be used for tripping the finish line but I think it is not very far in front of your front wheels so problably not alot to gain.Yet if I wasnt paying attention that front air dam or spoiler could ruin my day if I was to judge your fender,windshield post,decal on your car for reference and miss the spoiler dipping at the finish line. So you also have advantage that some do not have and could steal in win if dialed accordingly.Just saying

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Gary

As Jeff said you have a valid point when a class race happens in s/ss. One car could potentially have a .02 advantage over the other car. guess if you want to be the baddest guy on the block you better look at at the car you pick to do it with. again one of those detail things you have to pay attention to when you pick a combo..

In every other situation who cares what takes the stripe. for all I care you could put a 25 foot pole on the front of your car to take the stripe 25 feet in front of your tire. If I'm doing my job i will see this 25 foot pole and think to myself, "Hey self, i need to get in front of that 25 foot pole on his car." I will also know on my car what takes the stripe. so I know which part of my car I have to get in front of this 25 foot pole. You will have made at least 3 time runs with this pole on your car so you will know what to dial the car. We will both stage with our tires and If you were to take a photo of the finish my car would have to be in front of your 25 foot pole for me to win....

The way you think about this situation makes no sense to me. It's not like all of a sudden on a pass you decided to put this 25 foot pole on your car and expect to run the same ET. You're obviously going to be faster. You would have then had to dial for it thus making the fact that your car has this 25 foot pole completely irrelevant... If you don't dial for it you will break out.

Back to our real life example of justin and plourd. Justin's dial was to take the stripe with the nose. Plourd's was to take the stripe with the tire. If Plourd's dial was to take the stripe with his nose his nose would have been in the exact same place a his tire actually was in the pic. Justin would have known he needed to race nose to nose not nose to tire...

The details are what makes all the driver's involved great drivers. If i had to guess the driver's on the track knew exactly what happen and would never have and never will bit*ch about the outcome...

Sorry if i didn't say good job to Plourd and Justin before none of my post are saying anything negative about you guys just the posters complainin about the situation.

BH

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

I'll agree with you to disagree Jeff on which side of this statement we're on, and go with that. As for my cars ground effects, even with my dinky little 20x8x14 M/T's, the lowest edge of my car doesn't equal the bottom of my wheel (like it does with Justins car). The picture was clear that his Cobalt had lower ground effects than Brads car, so if both of them nosedove their cars, Justins front end would be lower than Brads (mine is similar to Brads given that it's a Cavalier, and the Cobalts came with lower ground effects than the Cavalier. The Super Gas final was even more clear cut about this, as the old school car crossed the line first (with its tires), but ground effects won it for Mike...but again we'll agree to disagree.

I will stand firm on my conclusion that Brad, Dennis, and Dan were robbed by their races not being tire to tire....

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Hawk, how can a tire to tire race not make since? As I told Jeff... Brad, Dennis, and Dan were robbed by those newer lower ground effects cars. In order for you guy's logic to make since all cars would have to be the same, and they're not. However, all cars stage with the tire, so they should conclude the race with the tire too...what's so hard to see about that when the camera clearly showed who really crossed the line first....and it wasn't the winners either...in either race! I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't think there was a logical reason to....heck even one of the first post following my initial one said that the ESPN guys called the tower to check the accuracy of the outcome given what the camera clearly showed...the true winners of the races were the runner-up's...that was crystal clear to everyone who saw the race on ESPN....

Lower the sensors for tire to tire racing, or raise them for frontend to frontend racing...that's the only way a diverse collection of racing vehicles will have a level playing field....

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Gary who cares both brad and justin have both put there thoughts in on this subject..... I for one look at the front end of everys car that im about to race so i know what will take the stripe down there.... I even ran a stripe taker on my mustang for years.... not to many people knew i had it and would try wheel racing me and would always lose because they didnt see the stripe taker out front.


End of story time to move on!

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

WOW Were,are, stripe takers even legal and if so which classes?

I dont care one way or another but I have to agree with Gary. The censors need to be raised so the NOSE of the car trips the win light for all cars (or trucks)

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

ya it was just a bracket car

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

I'll leave all the analogy stuff out this time...

Plain and simple no matter high high or low the beam is NONE of the races you are complaining about would have had any different of an out come.

6104 Brad Plourd 7474 Justin Lamb
E6 0.016 8.892 148.92 ****WINNER**** 0.023 9.210 147.07
SS/AM Dial: 8.86 (+/-): 0.032 SS/DM Dial: 9.19 (+/-): 0.020


Brad dialed his car to take the stripe with tire at 8.86. If Brads car would take it with the nose every pass he would have dialed about 8.84 and run an 8.872. Thus moving the nose of his car to the exact spot on the track that his tire actually ended up in the race when he dial 8.86...Still behind Justin and still wouldn't have lit the win bulb. It's all math

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

So I guess what some of are saying is it's perfectly legal to shorten your racing surface by using body parts to trip the lights. Is that correct?

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

It's been like that since cars came with low hanging front ends. A long time.

Greg

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Seems to be ok with the PRO categories. I think Super 90's do it to beat the competition and Comp also in which helps them get further under there respected indexes. So why should we be different then the rest? We are a performance oriented class so it looks like a way to gain free ET. There is a limit how far forward but not exactly sure what it is.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

First of all, Leroy I'm surprised that you'd be taking the views of Hawk Bros & Jeff who opposed my mindset, everyone who races a non-ground effects car should care. I rewatched those races yesterday, and the extension of Dennis's front end was only half the distance forward of the most forward extension of his front end, compared to Mike's (in Super Gas). Furthermore, I don't know what race Hawk Bro's was watching, but if the race would've been tire to tire, then Dennis's tire was clearly ahead of Mike's. As for the Super Stock final, how could you (Jeff and Hawk Bro's, not see that Brad's front end of his Cavalier touched the end of the stripe as Justin's frontal area was just beyond the sensor)??? Brad may have accepted the outcome (and Dennis said "OUCH"!), but camera's don't lie, and both his frontal nose and his tires crossed the finish line ahead of Justins car (unfortunately for Brad, his front end wasn't as low as Justin's which is the only reason he didn't trip the lights first)!!! Justin nose dove his front end right at the stripe to make his lowest area of the front end appear to be slightly lower than the lowest edge of his wheel, while Brads lowest edge of his front end was nearly equal to the center point of his front wheel...the laws of physics, science, and math played out here crystal clearly, and I'm no wiz at any of them, but I sure know enough to have seen the light of day in both of those races!!! I wasn't going to get technical with Jeff and Hawk Bro's, but now that you chimed in with them Leroy, I felt I needed to...

Jeff, you commented about my car having ground effects that could trip the finish line, but even under the hardest braking I could possibly do, my front end wouldn't dive below the lowest part of the wheel like Justins car did...by the way Jeff, now that M/T has discontinued making the 20" slicks I've been running for the last 15yrs, my front end will raise 2" at a minimum due to having to now run taller tires to race anything that will bite the track good, so there goes my so-called ground effects advantage??? Even more so, it was visually obvious the disparity between the vehicles (mostly between Mike's Super Gasser & Dennis's, but clear enough where Brad & Justins cars were concerned)...just studying the front ends of the cars as they were going up hill after the race clearly showed how much lower the front end was on both Justin's and Mike's cars as opposed to Brad's and Dennis's...besides Brad's frontal area was more than .005 ahead of Justin's frontal area (given how fast thousandts of a second spin). On the other hand, the halfway point of Justins car was close enough to the lower part of the front tire (of Brad's car), that tripped the finish line...thus making a .005 difference logically possible. Jeff, you brought up some good points, but so did I, and the shots at the finish line proved all of mine!!!

The visual facts are obvious, if the sensors would've been the same height as the staging beams were, then Dennis and Brad would've won their finals because their tires were clearly ahead of Mike's and Justin's. Heck Mike even admitted that the only reason he crossed the line first was because of his front end, so what can you guys say about that??? Given the vast diversity in racing vehicles, only exact types of such would be similar up front, but if tires determine the start & end of a race, then all we'd have to do is look at the footage of the race to show who should've won the respective races. Ground effects cars should trip the finish line the same as non-ground effects cars/trucks...with the tire! What's fair is fair, and that wasn't fair!!!

Ohh, and by the way Leroy, unless I'm mistaken the last time I checked (per someone else who commented in this thread), stripe takers aren't legal in Stock or Super Stock, so I'm glad you told Junior that your car was a bracket car. One more thing, Justin's brother even spoke about how he lost a race the same way...as the saying goes "two wrongs don't make a right", and I don't care how long ground effects cars have been involved in racing (mine included), tires start a race, tires (AND ONLY) tires should finish it! hanks Junior, and all who saw the reality of those races, and congratulations to Justin & Mike for being able to work it to get the victories!

As for you Brad & Dennis (plus Dan Fletcher), your days will come again, and your just due's will become all three of you!!! :)

I'm done with this (until it happens again & I see it), but it was great debating you Leroy, Jeff, and Hawk Bro's racing...

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Just for the sake of discussion if the beams were 3 inches high at the finish line could you dip a front end of one of these cars that low and steal a win? I believe so. If a rule was made that a tire only stops the timers at the finish line I have to ask how do we patrol that? I dont see how. I totally hear what you are saying Gary but I dont see how it can be patrolled and why it should be. Can you tell with your car sitting still how high is the bottom of your ground effects and from the front of your tire 6 inches up from ground how far forward is your ground effects. Also what MPH do you cross the finish line at?

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

I cross the finish line between 83 & 88mph (for now until I earn the funds to freshen up my 14yr old engine work, and get a higher duration cam into it than my currently modest .218 cam), depending on the altitude of the track I'm racing at.

As for the tire stopping thing, just lower the sensor height at the finish line to match the height of the staging beam (at the start), and that would likely solve that...or raise the height of the sensor at the finish line beam to stop the timers once the most frontal part of a vehicle would cross it (much like a track& field race). This may not help a race like Dennis's & Mike's in Super Gas (since Mike's front end was twice as far forward of his tire as opposed to Dennis's), but it sure would've changed the Super Stock result. In the Super Gas final it's clear to me that instead of clocking a run in 1320ft, Mike's lower extended frontal area allowed him to race to 1319' and nearly 6"...making for his advantage over Dennis's Willy's.

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Gary you're obviously too set in your ways to even consider anything anybody has said opposing your views. You're not even reading what I'm writing and just responding with more info trying to support your finish line picture...

if you would like me to walk you down the track or draw you picture next time we are at the same track I'd love too. sorry you can't grasp reality...

BH

Re: Brad Plourd, you were robbed last week!
 

Ok BH, I'll walk with you down the track, but before I do ponder this...In the Super Gas final, I'm positive that Mike Ferderer staged his car with the tires, while the nose of his car was already nearly 2ft. down course. However, the finish line wasn't tripped by his tire but by the nose of his car...therefore his 1320ft race was really only about 1318ft. How was that fair for Dennis Paz's old school vehicle that started & finished a full 1320ft with the tires? Same goes for the Super Stock Final, albeit not quite as dramatic...one things for certain though, Brad's Cavalier's nose was at the end of the finish-line stripe (during the second freeze frame shot), while the Colbalt of Justin's was just beyond the sensor part of the stripe (at the early part). You can't draw any kind of picture that's different from the obviously shown still shots of those two cars at the stripe. I clearly can grasp reality...it was right there on the tv screen live and in "Technicolor" for all to see, especially me...