.90 questions from mars....
 

.90 racing is as alien to my as my Uncle who is a Martian.

I recently asked an established Super Gas team some questions I still just dont get......I take what they say as gospel and they are recent event winners and certainly not fly by the seat of their pants types. But I "JUST DONT GET IT" I have a reason for asking these questions so please bear with me, and any back and forth isnt argument its part of the way I think and Im trying to accuratley grasp why.

So if you see a "why not..." please explain....I may ask the absurd but Im still not 100% getting it.

Ok....Here goes....

Ok Super Gas 9.90 index no problem.

WHY do cars use a throttle stop early in the race to slow launch only accel to a higher trap speed ?

Why wouldnt the correct approach be to launch as hard as they could consistently , then after the say 1/8 apply the throttle stop based on wheel speed or driveshaft speed to get to the 9.90

Instead they launch like my grandmas 77 maverick 6 and then blister along.

Is this an affect of the electronics allowed ?

It would seem ( from the peanut gallery ) to be more accurate and consistent to launch then depending on launch and depending on performance in air, etc, predict and calculate on the fly the last 1/8 mile ?

Im just trying to wrap my head around something I have seen obviously work well, but it would seem contrary to logic for accuracy.

Cheers

Chris

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

People have tried all kinds of combinations over the years and have found that the most consistent is to go on the stop immediately after launch. You get a nice hard launch to get going, then immediately (say w/in a 0.1 seconds) you get on the stop. You're still accelerating, but at a rock solid consistent RPM, very repeatable.

If you go on the stop later, especially in low gear, the engine has so much power that it will "climb" (RPM going up) on the stop, pushing past your "dead stall" (desired RPM on the stop), and become wildly inconsistent. That's also why the bigger the HP the sooner you shift. We shift at 1.0 seconds because any later and the engine wants to climb on the stop.

The Super classes are all about consistency and repeatability. After lots of people have tried lots of things, it's been found that this works best.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Drooze,

First off, if you are measuring wheel speed to operate the stop, that
is an illegal approach to the game, timers only can activate and de-activate the stop. As far as using the back half of the track for
delay, I ran with a friend with a setup like that and it worked fine, there are some rather well known champion racers who run like that as well. There is no limit to where and when you want to use the stop.
You see what you see because, well, even with a stop racers want
to go fast.
In a dragster, being able to see what is happening behind you
is rather tough.

-steve

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

[QUOTE=Chris "drooze" Wertman;198290].90 racing is as alien to my as my Uncle who is a Martian.



Ok....Here goes....

Ok Super Gas 9.90 index no problem.

WHY do cars use a throttle stop early in the race to slow launch only accel to a higher trap speed ?

Answer: it's easier to see your opponet and judge the finish line if you have more MPH

Why wouldnt the correct approach be to launch as hard as they could consistently , then after the say 1/8 apply the throttle stop based on wheel speed or driveshaft speed to get to the 9.90

Answer: Most super class cars can run one or more seconds under the index and it's difficult to scrub ET in high gear

Instead they launch like my grandmas 77 maverick 6 and then blister along
Answer the more consistent your 60' time is the more consistent and predictable the car will be..

Is this an affect of the electronics allowed ?

Answer: well the electronic do make this possible

It would seem ( from the peanut gallery ) to be more accurate and consistent to launch then depending on launch and depending on performance in air, etc, predict and calculate on the fly the last 1/8 mile ?
Answer: Well if your 60' times vary you SOL and if you were on the stop in the last 1/8 the MPH would be down considerably and devices that "adjust on the fly" as Steve said are illegal

Im just trying to wrap my head around something I have seen obviously work well, but it would seem contrary to logic for accuracy.
again it comes down to consistency but getting the car on the stop early and shifting into high on the stop have proven to be the most consistent and provide the highest MPH

Personally I wish they would out law throttle stops we could use less motor, less MPH and be side by side like we were 15-20 years ago but I don't think that will ever happen again.:(

]

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Thanks, Both answers make sense in their own way now.

Rules was something I wondered about, not knowing them...well....wheel speed seemed like a very viable approach but I can see why it isnt, other than that rules are something Ill have to look into.

The reason I ask is there is a real good, (as in better than 50% chance) I am before the end of the week going to end up with a SG car. Why ? Well I need money...lol....to keep my personal stupidity habbits (marriage) going. So......I have an offer of cash plus a SG car for my 72 Challenger SS project......Its a nice car in trade, a very nice car, and other than a recert ready to race.....And its a Mopar :)

So for me and mine, personally for the rest of the season to finish out in that would be FUN, and something NEW and Just fine.

I guess I need to hook up with someone in person to setup and explain the ropes, IF I end up with it.

I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

If you hit packages less than 20 consistently (dial a .90x and hit the tree with something less than 0.010), you'll win a lot of super class races. The rest of us are human. :) We dial a bit fast (say a .88) and get off the gas or on the brakes at the finish to take the stripe just by a little bit, hoping to scrub off the .02 we need to hit it perfectly. And if not, he broke out more, and you still win.

The idea of being able to see them ahead of you is to judge the stripe. Hard to do that when you're the slower car and they're coming up from behind you.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

"I heard that about the seeing whats behind you ? Who cares if you are dialed in and you KNOW youre dialed in, the opponent becomes rather arbitrary dosent it ? I mean your SINGULAR goal is to run as close to 9.90 as you can, opponent be dammed ? Right ?"

Well in theory your absolutely correct, but in the real world your first 9.899 loss will educate you quite quickly that you need to drive both ends of the race track. Even the most consistent car is subject to variation in the racing surface and the difference between the lanes themselves.
Also don't forget that you need to get there first (most of the time) and if your reaction time isn't better that the other guy and he's wheeling you (i.e racing you not the clock) he doesn't need a 90 to take the stripe.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Hmmmm....

I understand sort of.

But.....Ok no I dont, I understand the variation and the 9.899 breakout. But whos to say hes going to be any more correct than you.

And what confuses me is the desire to hang back then drive to the finish first this really has my head swimming.

And the RT i Understand.....that as someone else said, were mere mortals, are MOST .90 races decided soley by reaction time ? If they are that might explain some of my confusion.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

The thing about .90 racing is a lot of decisions being made in a short amount of time. Most like to run big mph so that the race is playing out in front of us. We can see the opponent as well as the finish line. We are all human and we do miss the tree at times. What I try to do is WIN BY A LITTLE AND LOOSE BY A LOT. If we are racing and I am able to catch you before the finish line I will try to tighten the race up as much as I can, thinking I had a good light and I'm trying not to break out. If I feel like I can not catch you I will drive you as deep as I can and then get on the brakes before the finish line trying to break you out. If I can't catch you either that means I had a bad light or you are fast. Some times my car will just make a slow run and thats why I'm behind but most of the time it is running what I set it up to run. The reason I want to loose by a lot is look at how many double breakout races, the guy with the worst light wins because the other guy took too much stripe. When your car runs less mph it is much more difficult to be able to look back at your opponent and know where the stripe is
Thanks, Chuck

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Did you ever see FIght Club where Brad Pitt is being beaten by the Gangster and he saying do you get it now and Brad Pit is acting like wait, oh wait I ....nope....BAM...

Thats how I feel , maybe its from a 1000cc blood letting yesterday and my brain isnt up to snuff.....not that it is when I havent been bled, but Im gonna ruminate on this because Im thinking it must make sense it just dosent to me right now.

Thanks

Chris

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

If his package is better than yours (RT+ET) you will lose and vica versa but even if you have a slightly better light, if your off .01-.02 (9.91-9.92) there is room for him to make that up at the finish line.
The desire to hang back is strategic one if you can see your oponent and judge you rate of closure you can some what control the race or at least you can and have some time to make a decision on the flip side when your the slower car you may not even see the fast guy until the MPH light and you have very little time to no time to make a decision or to avoid a breakout.

Reaction time is critical but so is avoiding breaking out and a good driver can in some cases cancel out a reaction time advantage with some savy finish line driving.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Front Dump

Head Fake

Drop him off/hope he falls for it and get back on the pedal before he does

Took a cornfield worth of stripe ( I did that sunday afternoon bracket racing for the big L)

Gave it back

If your gonna .90 race you need to learn these terms if you want to be a player.....

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Im considering it......

Its a damm nice car.....thing is I dont know what a well built and perty SG car is worth. I do know what MY Chally is worth. Its easy its worth what someone will pay for it, and in my case the offers tell me the story.

First before I decide Ive got to understand it. I guess that was the purpose of this thread. If I dont "get" it or at least understand the reasoning of the strategy behind it, well I might as well buy th Farmall Ive got my eye on, and hang on to the Chally until weve got a DP driveline free in a month or so. Super Stock dosent hold as much interest as Stock for me. I dont know why it just dosent. To the more limiting the rules the more interesting. BUT there is no good combo for the 72 Challenger except the Slant 6 I actually like. Im not an LA guy so, never will be there are too many out there that last time they went drinking killed more brain cells of knowledge on LA engines that I will ever be able to catch up on.

So if its not oddball (and the new hemis qualify in my opinion because everything we are doing different is breaking new ground) well.....If I could get my hands on a Cherry 81 Challenger (mitsu) 2.5 Id be in heaven.

So, maybe SG is the route.....besides who said Im drivin ? :eek::D:eek:

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

lol...............:)

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

It all becomes Moot as of 5 minutes ago, but I truly do appreciate the education, there is an issue that it will take me more time to correct on the car than I care to.

Oh well.....damm its perty though.

Guess Ill figger something else out.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

also : sun was in my eyes, squirter arm fell off, computer fart, etc............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Drooze,
Super Class racing is just like Stock or Super Stock or ET Brackets, except that someone else tells you your dial-in. What if in SS and STK you raced on the index and not a dial-under. How would you kill you ET? We use our throttle stops. That's where the problem starts. It's the time ON the stop that causes all the trouble with really knowing what your car will run. The longer on the stop the more chance for error. If you wait until after 660' you will be on the stop way too long. There was a SC car at INDY last year only running 118 MPH. However you are right that winning is about leaving on time and running your dial-in, just like other classes. Why do some Stk and SS racers hold .03-.05. It's because of the RT. If I'm .04 late on the tree but my car is setup to run a .86 then our race may look close to the other guy running .90x and .005 RT. That's where driving the finish line comes in. That is where it's easier to race the stripe if you can see your opponent, and the finish line w/o turning around, especially if there is a 15-20MPH difference in speed. We always like to have someone new come in show us how simple it appears to be. Just let go of the button and run the number. Nothing to it, come on in, the water is fine.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Far from simple I guess....I cannot get my head all the way around the strategy emploued and the reasoning for it. Thats the problem.

As I said in the start my contrary posts werent disagreement but my way of asking a question, to get someone to tell me why its done a certain way.

But to me, racing to the stripe in a 9.90 race seems contratry you are depending on your opponent to be as close.

Why not hammer it to the 1200 and lock em up and watch your opponent sail by and break out while you crawl across at 50 mph ? To me , if Im racing to the stripe Im depending on my opponent to be dialed accurate ? No ?

Im so flippin confused, and confused why you would even (as a begginer) worry anything about that and run it like a bracket car set dead to 9.90 and forget about the other guy......I dont know like I said, maybe its blood loss.....Maybe all my skull fractures are catching up with me.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

You want to run a .90 w/o letting the other guy know how you do it. Unlike Stk and SS there are numerous ways to get to a .90 If you think you can run a .90 at 50 mph then you better be right, because you have no time to say OH ***** and get back on the gas or brakes. A 15 MPH closing rate in our racing is hard to judge. In my SC dragster, if the I run 166 and the other guy is running 180. He is still behind me by more than 23' at the 1000' cone. There are some people that will just drive their car out the back door no matter what is happening in the other lane. They think they have their car dialled-in. When they breakout by.001 and took .02 stripe it gets hard to swallow sometime.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

The easiest and fastest way to understand index racing is to watch any .90 class (10.90, 9.90, 8.90) standing near the finish line. Watch the racers and listen to the engines. You'll see people:

- Running it out the back door -- they think they've got it dialed perfectly and they're happy with their light. Or they're unhappy with their light and they're just hanging on hoping they'll catch the other guy and win.

- Racing the stripe (on and off the gas/brakes) -- they think they're pretty close but they want to be sure to win by just a wheel or so, take any more than necessary and you risk breaking out.

- Dumping the other guy (off the gas or on the brakes hard) -- they think the other guy is fast and will break out, they want to be sure they don't. This takes the biggest cahones, because you better be right. You're giving up the win, betting on a breakout. If they don't, you're hosed.

- Looking over their shoulder -- they're the slower car in MPH (so they're on the stop a shorter time, and have taken off on the other guy), they're trying to judge the stripe (see above) with a car that's coming up on them fast.

- Slapping their head -- they made one of the above choices wrong, and they are pissed... Remember, this is all happening at 150-200 mph, it takes a lot of practice to get it right.

Watch at the end, note the times and the win light, and you'll catch on soon enough.

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Or just throw a throttle stop on that Drag Pak # 24 and get first hand knowledge, it's easy anybody can do it, but you'll want to run S/St with that car.........

Re: .90 questions from mars....
 

Maybe thats the ticket to understand the strategies employed, thats where I seem to have a total lack of understanding.

I understand the win/loss but how/why people do what they do, like I said the person that explained exactly what you all have I take as gospel.....but its like a 3 year old being read Revelations, they may hear it but not understand.

Seeing is understanding, and to that end I think youre right, I would still like to and need to understand it..

Thanks for one of the better explanations of how what why

Cheers

Chris