Lack of integrity
 

The reason the new cars are in stock eliminator at the soft hp factors they have is due to a lack of integrity of NHRA and Ford and Chrysler. They all knew on the front end how bogus these cars are and this weekend at Indy has proven that. It's time they put these cars in their own classes. I would say AA through D Factory Experimental. I don't mind these cars running in the eliminator with the older cars but to continue them in the traditional stock classes is a total sham and a perversion. What about it NHRA? Will you do the right thing or will you continue to shove this bullsh*t down our throats?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

i think we should acquire the taste for manure, or start leveling the playing fields ourselves

Re: Lack of integrity
 

All racers that run in classes with HP factors should now clearly see you are racing in a category that is totally arbitrary. Your ability to be competetive is wiped out at the stroke of a pen and at the whim of the people who sit at the top. They wanted to showcase new cars and they are doing it.....at your expense......

An active tech dept. could pretty easily look at engine specs on these engines and tell the HP ratings supplied by the manufacturers are way off.

Using the engine specs from the last 30-40 years is easy enough to do. Compression ratio, valve sizes, cylinder heads, cam specs and type as well as induction system.......

All one has to do is look at how much better the EFI cars were when they came out 10+ years ago. Now the latest wave of "stockers" have even bigger advantages and it's real easy to see......

I raced a traditional 350 Chevy stocker at the time the LT-1's came upon the scene and know how it feels to watch a car that can outrun even the best in your class by a a lot. Todays show at Indy is even more ludicrous.....

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Gregg, I think you are right with this idea. I doubt it will happen though. The problem that I have is ,what can we do to correct this situation? Should we ALL send NHRA a letter about the bogus ratings? What if we have a form letter that all the racers in our position send to NHRA? As Junior Barnes stated we don't stick together,or at least it seems that way. I am getting on in my years and close to retirement so I can't scrap my stuff and plunk down 90K for one of the new cars. Lets discuss this and try to form a workable solution. I think it is a good idea to have the new cars as a part of stock eliminator but they must not be able to easily dominate the older cars.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

SS motors in stockers? hell that might not be enough in some cases, lol

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Look when Mopar brought out the 68 1/2 Hemi Darts and Cudas.. The factory kept the rating at 450 hp even though everyone knew they made 550 hp. Out of the box they ran 10's, just like these new factory rockets.

NHRA had to create the Pro Stocks because of the domination of this factory supercars...

Now they had to move the Hemi Darts and Barracuda cars to their own Super Stock Class because of their dominance.

NHRA will allow this to continue because of the factory involvement. The factories have left the NHRA behind for so long in favour of Nascar that they are opening the involvement with open arms.

Sorry.. unlike the the 60's where they would have factored these car out of contention, the economy has forced NHRA's hand on this one.

A/SA will be a factory experimental class for the rich..

Re: Lack of integrity
 

That top notch driver better not have a heads up with one of those cars that has him covered by 5 tenths, as far as a breath of fresh air I smell ****

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Mike,

Bad as I hate to say it, IMO they should just go to no heads up in the eliminator.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

While its easy to see these new cars have an advantage on factoring ,h. p. etc , maybe drag racing needs a breath of fresh air. I'd be more than willing to bet a traditional stocker with a top notch driver is gonna win the big prize. I think a lot of these new combo's will be on the trailers early.. Just my .02. Pat.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

If you are ok with this for any reason at all ...

Please send me a check for $75,000 and I will send you my car.

That price would not be as far off as the HP of the new cars.

I find the excuses of why its alright - amusing. I think the post about where we would have qualified if only the new cars were not there - was one of the stupidest things I ever have seen.

Just imagine what these cars would run in Feb at Pomona at about 70 degrees and 1000 feet of altitude.

Like everything else - only those with money will survive and unfortunately I am beyond the big money phase of my life.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Jim,
I can't believe you said that

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I got water coming out of my keyboard, Damn I hate when that happens. Pat

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Jim please don't say that a second time, they just might do that then our devalued old cars would turn in to PRO bracket cars, with little value. They either need there own classes or the all need to have real HP factors whitch wouldn't be that hard to do!!!!!!!!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Dave,

I can't hardly believe it either.
Back in the 90's I would never have agreed with it, but I don't see a better way at this point.
The AHFS doesn't work, they piled up a bunch of hp. on the older combos, and now we have newer cars that are .5 seconds quicker than really serious older cars that are still out there. Look how many people have quit already.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

After seeing the potential of the challengers in G/SA I drove my G/SA into a wall!! J/K couldnt resist.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

In one case the new car was .6 quicker that a first class old car combo. . Can you cut a better light and beat that?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

LOL.....Im glad you still have a sense of humor after that awful crash. Its good that you can laugh about it. That means you are getting better. Hang in there. You had a lot of people worried...even those who have never met you.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

You may as well live with it cause it ain't gonna change.Simple fix would have new class and weight break for all the new cars and let them beat themselves to death til the real hp factor appears,at least the old original combos would still be able to live. Can you imagine a museum with all the old iron just sitting and being forgotton. All we will have left is memories and old videos.Changes i just ain't ready for,but they are coming. Sad , so Sad,.....

Re: Lack of integrity
 

JIm I'm sorry to see that you are at that point. I never cared for the AHFS but we are stuck with it. One change to it would really help with the HP problems. Don't stop at 3.25 % for any runs greater than 1.25. At 1.35 under have it go to 4.25% and any runs greater than 1.45 gets 5.25%. Any runs greater than 1.55 gets 6.25 and so on. And any one that runs more than 1.75 under should have to buy dinner for every racer at the track. Because we know they must have more money than brains. Just my thoughts Barry

Re: Lack of integrity
 

NHRA does not allow any one car or class to become dominate in comp eliminator. The adjustments come very quickly.Even during a race the CIC system goes into action. Can't there be a system like this for stock?

In stock it took quite a while to get the FI cars corrected,and this only came about when they were in thier own class. Is there not a way to get these cars factored correctly in a reasonable period of time? The AFHS is not set up to deal properly with this situation. So what needs to be done to fix it? Lets get the ball rolling.:confused:

Re: Lack of integrity
 

ken

I don't guess we have ever met, but its nice to see you are feeling better!
Hope all turns out well.

Jim

I have to admit that I kind of agree with you, if NHRA is not going to do the right thing about putting the correct HP on these cars(I ain't talking about 4 hp at a time), we might as well just use shoe polish when we get a heads up run. It is really a sorry state of affairs when something that is so obvious is completely ignored by the people who are suppose to be in charge. Greg you were a little off about Lack of integrity.......Complete Loss of integrity would have been better!

I really used to get pumped up about going to a National event that was running Class. Now, if you have an older Stocker, it really is like taking a knife to a gun fight. Its like stealing, plain and simple. I really don't blame the people who have the new cars, hell I would love one, but I don't have 100K to "invest" right now(or ever will). I have raced NHRA for longer than I care to remember. Always enjoyed myself, met a lot of people who became close friends and really had a great time.

Now Its beginning to smell.........

I for one have cut back on my participation at NHRA National events and I don't seem to be alone.

RJ

Re: Lack of integrity
 

This also applies to ss/aa & ba. The mustangs are only going get faster quickly and Armstrow has busted his azz to get where he is at. It is a shame. I'm glad I'm not spending anymore money on class racing. Back to no box where it is much cheaper.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

[QUOTE=mannymen; I'm glad I'm not spending anymore money on class racing. Back to no box where it is much cheaper.[/QUOTE]

But not nearly as much fun !

Re: Lack of integrity
 

count me in !

Re: Lack of integrity
 

ROFLMAO.....Glad to see your sense of humor is still intact Ken. Hope your feeling better and we will see you soon.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Good idea. To those that are "throwing the towel in" and stating heads-up runs should be eliminated; perhaps you are falling right into the trap that has been set!
Some of you must think there are enough DP & CJ's to make heads-up runs at every Divisional and National event on the circuit. Heck, some of you , make that a lot of you, run and hide on the potential of a heads-up run with two '68 Camaro's. You cower at that so yea, obviously a DP/CJ will scare you right out of racing.
I know just like everybody else that these cars are under factored. But they are here to stay and eventually the ego's will have them factored into normality. Look at Indy...I applaud their ego's! It will catch up to them as it always has.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

RJ,

Maybe more like taking a stick to a gun fight or a butter knife.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I can't help but agree with Jeff....we've all known for over a year how much potential these cars have, and this is the first time there have been this many of them at the same race...running to the finish line. Yes, it sucks for the guys that didn't make the field; yes, it sucks that it's probably going to take awhile to get the factoring / reclassification / whatever in place to even things back out, but how bad would it have sucked to see all these guys race to 1000' like many thought would happen. They're just plain blowing the NHRA's cover with all these outrageous runs - in my humble opinion, this had to happen for ANY remedy to ever see the light of day.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Jeff the problem that has been pointed out, is that it will take 10 to 20 years to correct them i don't know how long some are willing to wait but it will not fix itself in the next 5 years for sure.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Greg,

You are right on the money. The bad part about this situation, is the nhra is a 501 (c)(6) not for profit organization; aka Compton and Company. As a not for profit, nhra is prohibited from certain activities if they want to receive the benefit of millions of OUR tax dollars. And some how the nhra executives have created a rogue outfit that spends nearly all of it's time outside of the exempt organization confines. A very bright light will soon shine on them. I sincerely hope they enjoy it.

One other point, neither the ahfs or any other committee or gadget can fix this mess with the new cars. nhra is badly broken and needs to be fixed - from the top down!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Cooter, I was thinking it was one of those Spork things you get from Chic-Fil-A or something

Re: Lack of integrity
 

This bs started when NHRA changed the rules to allow these purpose built race cars into stock eliminator. They don't have motors that come in street cars. They have motors put together from the Ford racing and Mopar high performance parts books with hp ratings dreamed up to make them dominate over cars that were actually built with SAE hp ratings. This was a purposely done thing by NHRA and Ford and Chrysler. As long as we continue to support NHRA by going to National events nothing is going to change. Let them run a few Nationals with just these new cars and see what happens.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I am hoping that sooner or later (preferably sooner) they will either (1) put about 50% more hp on these cars across the board and if it proves its too much too soon, we will just let the AHFS do its job of "leveling" the playing field, right? I mean after all, doesn't the AHFS work both ways.....Yeah right!

(2) Just put them in their own little class and let them bash heads for a few years (15 sounds good to me) and then when they have established a HP rating that is "reasonable", just merge them back into the original backbone of NHRA, Stock and SuperStock Eliminator.

Now I hate to complain about any particular Combo, but I spend a lot of time, effort and money on my car. Its fast, but their are other regular(Carb or FI) Combos that are just as fast and faster. But these NEW cars are "Light Years" faster. There is no way having one HP correction per year is going to get things even remotely close to the proper ratings.

The way it is now, with the NEW cars to contend with, If you want to run at a venue that is having Class run offs, you are being CHEATED out of any chance to win. You have spent countless dollars making your car fast and legal per NHRA Rules, paid the entry fee, and now its like.........." we didn't tell you what type of car to build" or "the AHFS will take care of it, just give it a chance".

Yeah, Cooter make that a plastic butter knife!


Later RJ

Re: Lack of integrity
 

WELL...........WHAT are you racers going to do about it? Just bitching on this forum wont accomplish much of anything !

Re: Lack of integrity
 

...

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Now, I don't have a dog in this fight (I'm a NSS racer), but I certainly see everyone's point.

However, I must point out that there is more outside interest in Stock Eliminator now than there has been in many, many, years, and the CJ's and the DP's are responsible for it. They've increased the exposure of Stock Eliminator racing in a way that would never have been done had the factorys not gotten involved to this level. I know, personally, that for the first time in years I've been paying attention to what is going on in classes other than SS/AH.

Now, I'm a Nostalgia guy, through and through, but I realize that there is a limit on the number of folks that relate to my forty five year old Dodge hardtop, but the youngsters go gaga over the new Challengers and Mustangs. It's a generational thing. Although we get a good spectator count at a lot of the NSS races, there is a limited number of Gen Xers (?) in the stands. That is a fact.

I am an old Hemi guy, and, to me, a naturally aspirated 426 is in a class of itself. But, I do realize that the engine is 46 years old, and I think everyone has to be thankful that all this old musclecar technology has remained dominant as long as it has.

Although it's tough to take, I think that the natural progession of things has happened, like it or not. Just food for thought.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

greg as much as you are right on with this post, you are wrong when this BS started. the lack of integrity started when the "corporation" decided to ease the tech enforcement, and cowered down to the racers with agendas. Stock is supposed to be stock.

since the whoring out of our class began the people who had INTEGRITY headed for the hills. instead of having a national tech director who had INTEGRITY the "corporation" placed people in that position who would do as they were told. instead of someone with the authority to police the HP bull**** we got the Automatic Help For Slugs computer program which (as i have said at least 10,000 times) cannot and will not EVER work shoved up our *****...instead of someone who with INTEGRITY who sould address this current BS we have the "corporation" who is being paid with publicity and im sure cash into the non profit pockets to allow this.

what can we do ??
i am not am member at this time
i have not raced this year, albiet with a few other issues tossed in
i for the first time in 28 years will not set foot into the nationals

as long as 180 idiots continue to support this travesty we will never get anywhere

i am all for sending pat joffrion my $150 dollars and announce we have a new association
i pick pat because he of all the people ive dealt with cares about fairness and the racer and has no agenda other than "lets race"... his fairness rules are painted on the side of his tower - no BS there.

jack

thanks i had not been on my soapbox for the whole summer !!!!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

This maybe true but I believe that they would have gotten the same outside attention if they were factored correctly. Most are not against the cars being here. Just the joke of a rating that was put on the motors. That and the fact that you can not get many of those motors in a true production car.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Re: Lack of integrity
 

they would get a HELL of a lot more attention in a special class AFX / BFX / CFX and run em heads up ... let the $$$$$$$$$$ compete there not with us !!!!

captain jack