Extict A car...
 

OK, So here I sit with a car that is virtualy useless except for bracket racing. Is this the BIG Bang Theory or what? WTH do we do now? I don't blame the guys with the new race cars. They have fast cars and want to race too. NHRA , Please take a good hard look at what you have created and make a change. I am only one but there is no way in hell we can compete at your level. You tell me what is next.


Barry Polley.

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Just asking, what difference does it make? :rolleyes:

He's got a pretty decent A/SA car, and he's done a lot to help other people race and learn. He's paid his dues, and goes by his real name, too.

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Just asking, what difference does it make? :rolleyes:

He's got a pretty decent A/SA car, and he's done a lot to help other people race and learn. He's paid his dues, builds his own engines, and goes by his real name, too. He's just another good racer, trying to run a car he already owns, without going $100K in debt, and doing it the old fashioned way, working hard on it himself, instead of buying it all done.

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Art, did any of those cars have you covered by a solid 5 tenths? Because a good traditional A car in decent air will run 10.0 or 10.1x most places. The new cars will run easy 9.5-9.6 in A in the same air in bracket mode.

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If we had your attitude at Indy in 1980. We would not have won the race or the W.R. Grace Cup
There were 5 cars in B/SA And we were the 4th slowest. There were only 14 qualifying spots. So according to you we should have just gone home. How dare NHRA allow those mid motored, fiberglass bodied Corvettes in our class. They should have been put in a sports car class. RIGHT?
Well with a lot of luck and some great driving we won the class, the eliminator, and the W.R. Grace Cup.
It is amazing that when you think there is nothing left in a combo, somebody that doesn't agree finds something.
Other than class, how many heads up runs do you have? An awful lot of races have been won by the slowest car in the class.

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Exactly Art but double that 3.25% ;). The class is still a performance based eliminator. Unless someone runs into a heads up with a new car the best shoe polish and start/finish racer will win.


BP

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Most of the package cars will be getting HP next week anyway, so it will shake itself out soon.

Just asking, but were you the fastest non-package car there?

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They happen quite a bit but not if you lay down and cry.
If you want to pout because you think you can't be the king of the class. You don't deserve to be.

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I was not at Indy this year (tranmission is still apart) I look forward to the "Go Fast" race at Belle Rose next year. I think I can handle the package cars, At the very least I will try.

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A tenth or 2 behind yes you can get lucky but 5 tenths to a full second.....Naaaaaaaaaaa! Not going to happen unless they red light,crash or blow up.

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Art, with all due respect can you cover 5 tenths or more with an 0 lite? Were those cars you are refering to factory race cars? No! I have more race attitude than you could imagine. Never said I quit, never said I was done searching for more power. The point is in the next two years there is now way the fastest REAL Stock or Super Stockers in the country can compete in the same class. Yes with some luck and great driving you will do OK but now, no way. If we had the money and the time my partners and I would have been there getting our rears handed to us. I know I am not alone on the subject.


Barry

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I agree that these cars aren't factored correctly. But this is their first year and they will be getting 3.25 percent Tuesday. There are quite a few of them not just one or two. The AHFS will catchup with them, like it did for the FI cars. I just hope these guys run their cars for real and not to the 1000'
I was around in the "dartboard " days and believe me you don't want that back. Cars were factored and defactored for things that had absolutely nothing to do with performance.
This whole internet thing has brought out the worst in people.
Remember a few years ago when they wanted to ban guys like Biondo, Fletcher, Richardson, Emmons. Etc. The so called Professional sportsman racers?
Then the end of the world was near due to fuel injection.
Then last year a brand new Cobra Jet went out and won the Pomona race..
We will see who wins Indy. But whoever it is it will be because of driving. and car knowledge, not a HP advantage.

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Must coming from a guy who never has more than 2 cars in his class at a National
Last time I looked Heads up runs in the Elliminator do count. Guess you need no HP for that. LOL

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Perfect Example Art, Last time I checked Brian is a Damn good Driver
This BS cost him a real good shot at winning
Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed
4312 P.B. Candies 2523 Bryan Phillips
E3 ****WINNER**** 0.325 10.219 132.44 0.002 10.718 104.65
E/SA Dial: 11.70 (+/-): -1.481 E/SA Dial: 11.70 (+/-): -0.982
Prior rounds:
E2 (M Truman ) 0.092 10.248 0.018 (F Maiolo ) 0.037 10.854 0.024
E1 (R West ) 0.050 10.233 0.033 (W Lent ) 0.015 10.891 0.111
Qualified: #7 10.399 -1.301 #55 10.827 -0.873

Heads up race and Phillips nails the tree to no avail. Candies has a 0.325 light and still wins by 27 feet

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Art, this is their second year, 3.25% won't even come close to reigning in a car that can run 1.7 under the new indexes (AKA 2 seconds under last year's indexes) and they've added more cars. And at least Ford is making plans for the next two years. At this rate, no matter how well the AHFS works, or how often it is triggered, there'll always be another killer or three ready to hit the track with a bogus factor that'll take years to reign in.

Outside of guys who race every weekend, like Fletcher, Biondo, the Richardsons, Rampy, and Bertozzi, all guys I know well and respect, most average racers may only be in a position to win a national event maybe 5 times in their life, if they race for 10-20 years. So, when they draw one of those bogus cars heads up, especially in the later rounds when they might just be on track to one of those rare shots at a win, it is really huge, especially for them. It's not just that the bogus cars might win a race, it's that they can easily prevent someone else from getting anything close to a fair shot at it.

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You should read all my posts in 1980 at Indy when there were only 14 qualifiyer spots.
There were 5 cars in B/SA About average for that time. We were the 4th slowest. The hemi at the time was factored to 440 hp only 5 away from where it is now (everone says they are no longer competitive) Some cars had us covered by close to 3 tenths. We won the class, the eliminator, and the Grace cup.
I'll accept your uninformed apoligy.

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You are right about the second year I meant first year they had to show what they had.
How about running class at more places. This would force things along quicker

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I think they should have class eliminations at every event. It's one of the few ways they could increase the effectiveness of the AHFS as it stands.

It's the first year they've decided to really show some of their potential. I think the rumor mill had something to do with that, and then there's the fact that there are more of them than there were last year.

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I agree this would be constuctive instead of destructive.
And properly altitude correct

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I will apologize if you took my post as a personal attack it wasnt... But that was over
30 years ago Art LOL things have changed a little since then dont you think? We
have a average of 5 cars in E/SA at a Div race now lol. How many cars were in E
at Indy this year ? I do understand anything can happen but nothing short of a blown motor in these cars would help.

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Bob ,you beat me to this one.
I just want to add that Bryan was the 2004 Indy E/SA class winner, too.

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I'm just stating that as long as these guys run the cars and not play games with lifting.
Things will work out. I commend them for racing the cars
Just to beat up on the new cars isn't a solution. Because this is racing and someone will always have an advantage. Remember there is a total vaccum of common sense in Glendora. I asked a question about running individual throttle bodies, and was told I had to run a stock throttle body. This is a pounds per cubic inch modified production motor.
And I was told I had to run a stock throttle body. Even if the motor never came in any car.
You really don't want these people making any more decissions than needed.
Something constructive would be to take out the 1000' clocks. It might make everyone run to the end.

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When I look at this It tells me the DP ran it out while the other car dumped.
He would not have won anyway but protected his index. He went .98 under the new index dumping. If you allow Glendora to adjust things I'm sure that would require an adjustment.

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Why does it matter? because, if he wasn't the fastest non-package car how would he win?

The package cars are taking care of themselves, no need to be selling off "uncompetitive" cars yet.

And so what if someone else has bought a competitive car out of the box for big money? That has always been the nature of class racing. You buys your ticket and takes your chance. Someone, somewhere will always be faster eventually.

Dennis Schumers
Park Forest, IL

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The thing is, you're wrong. Because there were only a very few of A cars able to go 9.90's in decent air, and only a very few AA cars capable of going 9.60's in decent air. Now there are a couple dozen, at least. The average A car was a ten-teen car, and the average AA car was a 9.80 car in decent air. So a guy with an average car had a shot. so long as he didn't run into one of the few. Now the few are many, and the average guy is ten times more likely to meet one.

Many of us could race for years, and have, without ever seeing one of the really fast 427 cars like the Sorensons or DeArmond, or even one of the other killer cars like Shaul, Holroyd, DeFrank or the others. You're assuming that only the fastest of the traditional combinations lost anything. That assumption has no merit.

If you already had $50K or so invested in an average A or AA car and you can't pony up $80K+ for a new car, you're well behind the 8 ball, with little chance to catch up.

Another thing is that people believe you can just go out and buy a killer engine from a top name builder and you have an instant 1.1-1.2 under car. Nothing could be further from the truth. The average guy, given Joe and Hal's car, or Bobby's car, in pieces, with just the engine built, would barely run 1 under with it if/when they got it together.

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Isn't that the point of heads-up class racing, to be faster than the other guys no matter what? And hasn't it always been that the one with the most money or talent will win? What about the "old days" when the factories were sending out ringer cars all the time? Are things really any different now?

The CJ's are well on the way to SS only, and the 6.1 Hemi will probably not be too far behind. The 5.7 and 5.9 will be getting a present shortly too.

I think trying to sell off my car now is a tad premature.

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Well on their way to Super Stock? These cars will still be in Stock for many years after many of todays racers are dead and gone if nothing is done about them.

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So let me see if I have this right..............

Take run of 10.000 in E/SA....

This car goes out and runs hard enough at Sea Level National Events to get a 3.25% HP hit.....

This same car would have do this 6 times at different events (if any other DP 5.7 cars run 1.25 under at the same event it only counts as once) even after getting hit 6 times the HP rating would be 378 HP (a little more than an LS-1)

Now this car will race as a natural A/SA car and weigh 3194 lbs., which is 126 lbs less than it now weighs for E/SA.....

Let's see an ET of 10.000 and than you remove 126 lbs so you end up with an A/SA car that runs 9.90's in the summer at INDY.

However, this combo would have to be hit 6 times for that to happen.....

What a plan...

Bob

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Very well put Bob, I don't know if we have time for this? I for 1 have 3 dogs in this hunt and not to mention the LS-1 which has been beaten beond recognition! How much does a fella have to take (I know Cour...work on my stuff and quit crying) I'm for an FX class just like they did the FIA. Funny cars W/Puffers...?...WTF...over

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Dave,

I think we should take the NHRA management team out behind the woodshed, and don't forget to bring your sons with you.

I have to think that NHRA has a plan (they make too much money not to have one) they just don't want to share it with is.

I was once fired from a job as a Service Manager for a Cadillac store. They told me that "they had some new plans and I wasn't a part of them"

I just hope that's not NHRA's plan for Stock & Super Stock, but it makes you wonder.

Take care,
Bob

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If it makes you feel any better, I was fired from a service writer's job for the same reason.

2 years later the place lost their franchise and is now closed.

I'm doing very well though. :)

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Some of you guys may not agree with me but if I was ever in a position where I was up against a bogus car for class, I would make him go as far under as I could so he would hit the H.P. trigger. I know everyone would do the same. The only thing I would do different, I would remove every extra pound of weight I could. You are going to get beat anyway right? So who cares how light your car is? Take out 150 pounds and make that guy to -140 to -160 under to beat you. Any if we did that it would not take very long before the H.P. would be adjusted to a fair rating.

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I totally agree. How do they police a supercharger? NFW. How do they police a good lap top tuner or even the new engine specs? The comments made about working on our stuff? I don't think we have any less time than any others working on our stuff. The point the new car guys are missing is they are not the blame however........ They are capitalizing on a bad call. Give them there own classes and lets get back to racing.

BP

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Problem is John, you take a harder class average hit. You get screwed in the long haul. I saw heads up fast (real stockers) hit the brakes and push those cars as far as they could. That was the best case scenario in my opinion.

BP

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aside from hurting your own average, very good idea. I also think that leaving these cars unchecked will lead to more, and more flagrant "working outside of the rules" by conventional stockers trying to keep up with these cars, even though it is an exercise in futility

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Ever since I bought DP #24, and we began building it, we have been wishing for a separate class to run in...

And that isn't because of all the whining and gnashing of teeth here, but because it would be more fun that way.

Now after seeing a total of 13 drag paks show up in Indy, I think it would be even better than I had originally thought... Give us our own class, along with the naturally aspirated CJs, (stick the blown CJs into their own class), and everyone will have have fun.... And we will also find out how fast these cars can really run, since HP wouldn't matter...

I am convinced that there would still be a lot of whining here though. People will be crying because the new cars got "special treatment" or they will find some other reason... But if not not for whining and crying, what would some of the guys here do? Go racing? Some already do race, and a very few of them are actually affected by the new cars.. the rest? Well, not so much.......

But look guys, I agree with you! Give us our own class, and all will be right in the world..

David
The New Hemi Guy

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Thanks for your input David. I don't usually get involved in the hype however, this just set us back 2 or more years not to mention any stocker value a muscle car had. The fastest stockers in the country don't have a shot competing with the performance. Guess we will wait and see.

BP