life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

i'm curious where the Hemi Darts and Barracuda's went after Super Stock? they obviously kept racing them but in what classes? i'm interested in pictures and information about these cars as they existed and were raced in the 70's and 80's if anyone is interested in sharing.

Dave

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

oops

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Quite a few of them were transitioned into "match race" stockers, the early Pro Stock cars. That movement became real big in 1969, which caused NHRA to recognize it as an eliminator in 1970. A lot of the Darts and Cudas were in the fields of early Pro Stock NHRA racing.

A lot of them stayed in Super Stock, and a lot of them were parked. Most are still in existence, but few of the originals are racing. I think that Chuck Comella's Dart is the only gennie racing. An original one is worth a ton of money. I know where there is one parked in a guy's game room in the Pittsburgh area. No kidding. Bob George has his original, it is probably the most original in the country, as it has the original motor in it.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Raybourn's Dart is also an original car.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

John Friel plans on a comeback one day, thats an original. Isnt Dailys car an original??

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

i know that cars for Pro Stock were required to be only so old, so i understand why some cars were "updated" with later model sheet metal or trim. what about Modified Production? i'm curious too about the match race thing, were those cars classed or what is pretty much a heads up run what 'ya brung thing?

i'm also interested in when the tires started getting bigger and when did racers begin to tub and modify the rear springs and so forth for bigger tires. did this too happen around 1970 with the introduction of Pro Stock?

sorry if it seems like i'm asking some funny questions here. i'm 36 and wasn't around for this stuff but i'm very interested in it and want to learn about racing from the 70's and 80's era's and the cars, parts, modifications, etc.

Dave

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I remember the tires on Grumpys 68 Carmaro and Sox's Hemi 'Cuda in Pro Stock during 1970 were 12.2 X 31.2 "W" size. I dont believe the 14 X 32's had been introduced yet at that time. Tubbbing the wheel housings for S/S wasnt allowed until a couple of years after all of the Jr. stocks were made to run S/S in 1972. You had to run a tire that fit the existing OEM wheel wells and no rear end narrowing was allowed but that rule was "Fudged" a lot in those days just as things are done today. The 10.5 tires were used a lot back then even on the 68 Hemi 'Cudas and Darts when new from Hurst Corp. You were allowed to move the rear leaf springs for clearance. OMG ! That was about 40 years ago !
Early Modified Production cars had to use 7 inch slicks. Match racing was a big deal back in the day as it was a major sorce of income for Dyno Don, Da Grump, Sox, Bob Glidden and all the rest when Pro Stock became popular. Usually anything was allowed for match racing such as large engines, weight removal, etc. They really didnt get into funny fuels like back in the old altered wheelbase days of 65/66. The fans loved it and its a shame match racing dosent happen today. I think they are missing the boat on this. When I first got Top Stock introduced I tried to arrange some match races of those guys but there was no interest from the local tracks or the racers it seemed. It would have helped promote the heads up concept in stock but its all accient history now.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I have done a little bit of history on these cars and spoken with many of the owners. Many cars were updated and run in Pro Stock - I think there was a 2-3 year rule at the time. The Barracudas were updated to 69 models and ran for a year - many Darts were updated to 70 models and run longer. Many of these cars that were updated to 70 models are still missing. In talking to many 2nd owners, they added a tunnel ram and ran M/P - the cars were a natural B/MP and with some lightening A/MP. Some of the owners said that the factory racers - Mancini, Lilly & Tedder lowered the record so much that they were not competitive - remember they ran of the national record at the time. Once in a while you will also see one being raced in the early 70's in C/Gas. Later, some were fitted with 440's or retained the Hemi and bracket raced.
Mark J

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

There are a number of "Factory" cars still racing (kinda)
Chuck Comella
Harold Leiter
Jim Pancake's Barracuda
Rayburn's Barracuda - I belive has been sold to another racer
Randy Hopkins Dart
There are others as well

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I was going to suggest he get up with you or Dell. How about the Lewis & Keys cuda? They were entered for Indy but a no show this year.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I gotta feeling Lambeck's Dart will make a showing in 2011. ;)

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

The BO29 & LO23 cars were truly a "Jack-of-all-trades" sort of car. As others have said, many became Pro Stockers, some "match-race" cars which resulted in quite a few getting carved-up and many went on as pretty successful "class" cars, running as intended in S/S or Modified Production or even in some Gasser classes., You can find pics of cars like "Psychotic Reaction" running M/P or Lambeck's car carrying "gas" (B?) designation or more often than not A/MP. These were "natural" cars for the class as they already had the big engine/small car concept scienced out from the factory & the owner's match-raqcing experience allowed him to set-up the car above & beyond the S/S rules yet be familiar with running the car all-out & however he wanted.
As I recall the original S/S rules didn't allow for any tubing or anythingyet allowed whatever tire could fit without rear-end narrowing , so Mopar was smart enough to carve on the rear quarters of the Darts to allow a larger tire to fit without having to settle for a (relatively)small slick---the 'Cudas didn't have that issue.
As to when the narrowing of rear-ends came into play, I believe that was right at about 1973 when P/S really took off, development was coming by leaps-and-bounds, so the necessity of larger tires just evolved. Actually if you look under one of S&Ms early 'Cudas you'll see a leaf/link set-up & big tires--- kind of a cross between the still used 4-link system yet with leafsprings.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I wondered what happened to Friel's car...I knew that was a gennie.

Bob Lambeck had a Cuda that was pretty successful in A/MP. Kenny Montgomery ran his as an early Pro Stocker, with a lot of success. He later switched to A/MP and, I believe, won the Summernationals in Englishtown Modified Eliminator. The car still sits in Kenny's shop in A/MP trim.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

1968 = SS/B
1969 = SS/B or A/MP
1970 = SS/A or Pro/Stock
1971 = SS/A or Pro/Stock *
* The 2-year rule was in effect for Pro/Stock. The 68' cars would put on
1969 trim to qualify.
Some tracks bent the rules, and allowed the 68' cars to run in Pro/Stock
in 1972.
pc

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

thank you for the replies and information everyone. someone mentioned the 14x32" tires, when did they come out?

i have and old article that shows the rear suspension modifications and wheeltubs in one of the Gratiot Darts, it's the leaf -link rear set-up. the article is from '75 in Popular Hot Rodding. was this the same car that was rolled into a ball the next year?

why is it hard to track the cars that were converted to '70-'71 trim? do they drop off the radar a bit because of the update? i wonder if any of those guys who updated the cars still have the '68 pieces collecting dust somewhere.


Dave

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Dave,
Many of those 68' Super/Stock car owners didn't realize the value of the cars back then. NOBODY DID, or very few.
I cried many times, in 71'/72'/73' seeing several of the 68' Cuda's and Darts hacked up into a Gasser or Pro/Stocker, or Bracket Car UGH!
They were meant to be Super/Stocker Cars.
pc

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Jim Keyes was going to race , but his new Engine wasn't done ! He was there as a watcher ! ..........John

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

The interesting thing about these cars that anyone tha follows them knows, is that these cars didn't have NEAR the budget Mopar gave its NASCAR contingient. If you look at these cars closely they didn't have near the forethought or completeness of the '65 cars but that's what actually made them so great --- a ton of deleted stuff, cheap A-100 seats, basically a street Hemi with big pistons & an x-ram, sometimes they weren't even complete cars when shipped!
Sadly we'll never see this kind of stuff again. The DragPak cars come kind of close but even allowing for inflation the DP cars are far more money than the old S/S were..........

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Stephan, I sure am waiting for John to bring that Dart back out to the circuit, but in the mean time I'll enjoy the video I have of his car in action back in the 90's when he parlayed a nearly 100+ ft long wheelstand into a 9.14 (which back in the early to mid-90's was about as good as it got), at 144mph. I believe at Rockingham was the track he ran that on, and he was in a time trial along-side of Bob Reed. Unfortunately, Bob's Cuda had some problems at the launch, and so he didn't move from the line. However, that mis-fortune allowed John's car to be seen in it's grand splendor the whole way down the track, and whoever taped the run must've liked John's car too, because it was the only run during that session that was taped from just after the burnout, to his crossing the finish line!!!

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Hemicop,
Your right on. The cars were nowhere as re-fined as the 1964 or 1965 cars. The earlier cars were done at the Mopar facility. The 68' cars
were farmed out. Even the Hurst facility had part-time employee's working on these cars. Scary thought.
I think the factory cost for the cars was somewhere around $3300.
Engines with heavy 12.5-1 factory pistons, and stock Steet-Hemi
solid lifter camshafts.
Despite all the writing about these cars, they did not run 10.50's right out of the box. As usual, more misinformation.
pc

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Hey Dave! How is it going Bud?
Nice to see you here. This is the place for Super Stock and other drag racing info.
Matt

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

does anyone have pictures of these cars from the 70's-80's they would be willing to share? i'm also interested in what were common modifications of those era's applied to these cars, suspension modifications, engine parts, etc. one thing i'm pretty curious about is how the cars were modified to fit the bigger slicks and still retain the leaf springs. i know that the springs were relocated but where the frame rails moved in too or were they replaced?

i noticed too that the team of DeFrank & Cohen have had at least two Hemi A-bodies, maybe more?


Dave

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Dave,
The 10.5" slicks fit within the wheel-well of the Cuda.
The Dart required rear fender-well opening modification.
The frame-rails were not modified on the factory cars.
The cars were basic 68' 383 cars. Came through with
welded-in 'torque-boxes'.
pc

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Dave; this quote by Larry Griffith in an article by Bob Frey touches on what happened to some of these cars. As previously noted, many others ended up being converted to race various other classes.

"I was racing a 1968 Hemi Dart, and when Chrysler came out with the Pro Stock program they asked a few of us if we would convert our cars to 1970 models. Melvin Yow and a few others, like me, agreed, and we went Pro Stock racing." After racing the newly converted car for about a year, Larry was rewarded with a new ride for 1971. "I got one of the new Dodge Demons and we raced that for a while."

If you'd like to read the full article here is the link:

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=214169

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Jeff, thank you for posting the link!

it brings up a question i have that i'm very curious about. when the cars were converted to '70-'71 models did they use fiberglass fenders and hoods?

i'm also curious as to how they cut the back off to change it to the later model.

Dave

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Any one here know if Dick Landy's 426 Hemi 1970 Dart Swinger pro stocker was one of his older cars converted, or bought from a Chrysler dealership, or was it a body in white from the factory...and I'm pretty sure Bob Lambeck drove this one for Landy.

http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/45...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Anyone have anymore info or stats on these converted Hemi A-body race cars.

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/49...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

In a conversation with Dick, the 70 car was brought up, but I really don't know the answer to it. Dick told me he converted the 68 stick car. He said he remembered the nightmare his bodyman had getting the 70 tail fitting after he cut the 68 off. The front was all bolt on.
There are holes in that theory tho, which I can't explain. He is known to have owned only 2 original LO cars when new. One a stick, one an auto. Both cars are documented today by Dick, & have been restored. But yet, if you look at the Car Craft All Star Decal on the side glass, this is a decal from 1968.
I believe he cut up a 68 car, but what car did he cut????

liteweight

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I think the 14x32 slicks came out in either 1972 or 1973.....during the Hemi Challenge every friday at Indy (US Nationals) Herb McCandless tells the story of how he was the first to use the tires...they were so new at the time the tires didn't even have lettering on them. I think the were Firestones, not sure though. He was part of the factory team back then and he usually says everybody was trying to get their hands on them while he had a 2-3 race advantage over everybody else.

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Best I know of is right here: http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=13002

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I read an article back in the day about how primative the 68 A bodies were.

Fiberglass didn't fit; most that weren't picked up at the factory showed up with broken glass; one was delivered with 7 12:50 pistons and one 11:50 piston and some racers had to wait for the manifold to be shipped to them.

There was a story about a guy at Hurst whose job was to take a sledge hammer and pound out the inner fender so the valve cover would clear.

Chrysler said the they new the cars would be completely rebuilt by the racers so they sent them out to the racers in basically unfinished condition.

On the other hand the 62 through 65 cars were well thought out and well executed and did run well right out of the box.

JimR

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I remember reading, that Chrysler Performance forbid any
racer with a 68' Hemi Barracuda or 68' Hemi Dart from running anything
other than Super/Stock in 1968.

In no uncertain terms, they were told to stay away from A/MP,,,,,,,,,,,
as that record was being 'reserved' for the 'special factory-backed
teams', when they felt the time was right to 'crush' the record.

If anyone raced in A/MP in 1968 with any A-Body Hemi car, they would be outted from getting any factory help,,,,,,,,let alone replacement parts.

More or less,,,,,,,,,,,stay in line with the Chrysler Racing Program,,,,,,
or else....

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Also a little known fact was that Landy was known for buying other used race cars after they used them up or moved on to something newer...so did he buy someones old car that also had the Car Craft decals on the windows, if so who's? And Bob Lambeck also raced a few Hemi A-bodies himself, he had a couple of 68 Hemi Darts & Barracuda's over the years, not sure but maybe it was one of his old rides...have you talked to him lately.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...25-lambeck.bmp

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

I believe the Bob Lambeck Dart was an
original LO23 purchased by one Jon Hooper,
out of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

pc

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

That photo is curious to me, as there are no side markers, which of course the '68 cars had round ones. Is this car really a '67 made over? Also, I believe the Cragar Super Trick wheels came out in '71 and the Centerline Auto Drag wheels were around late '73. I've broken enough Super Tricks loose over the years for front half polishing to know that the wheels in the photo are Centerlines,, so, I'm curious as to when this picture was taken. Did Bob run one of these Darts in Pro Stock as late as '73 or is this a tribute car at a later event. Its a neat shot, but I'll admit its got me thinking.
Danny Durham

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Hey Danny
This car is a real LO Dart. It currently resides in Minnesotta. Quite a few 68 cars had the side markers either welded shut or converted to the rectangular ones. Usually the factory backed cars had this done to them to appease MaMopar, keeping up with the current model year. You'll notice Lambeck also had a 69 grille in it also.

HM
No I haven't spoke with Lambeck in a few years.

liteweight

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Thanks for the info, Liteweight. That explains a few things,,,take care.
Danny Durham

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Hoopers Hopper

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Is this a current photo or a old one of Bob Lambeck's 68 Hemi Dart ( ex-Jon Hooper car) because the rumor is that the car recently sold...this is what the car looked like before.

http://stigza.blogspot.com/2011/06/68-hemi-dart.html

http://classracer.com/classforum/att...6&d=1321274923

Re: life after Super Stock for the Hemi A-bodies?
 

Mr. Lambeck actually owned 2 original LO Darts

liteweight