top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

1. used to be you could build a car and be competitive because of hard work and ingenuity > now it is just about how much you are willing to spend

2. used to be the teardown barn was where we found out who was legal and who was a cheater > now it is where we find out what you can get away with and what rules will be realxed next year

3. (and the most missed) used to be we all pretty much respected each other, and enjoyed the competiton > now we fight, argue, accuse each other at every opportunity

i know im old, but it is a shame that i can hardly even recognize the class i have raced for over 35 years.

jack mccarthy

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

True.....so sad but very true !

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

1. So you are saying anyone who builds a new car lacks hard work and ingenuity. Jack you and me both know that is a load of crap. You know you will not find any racers that work harder than Even smith, Ken Miele, Irvin Johns, Chris Holbrook and Myself. Or are these people slackers. And just so you know A-F Stock & Superstock have always been who has the most money.

2. Tear Downs you are correct 100%

3. People still respect each other. We all just have different options about stock and Superstock and where it is going. Greg Hill and Myself may differ when it comes to the new cars. But I still respect him as a racer and a friend.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I'm with Jack, sorry Charliebob, you didn't convince me otherwise.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

It's ok you guys are old school, and that's fine with me.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I am a new guy into the sport (my 2nd year) and I am with Jack, also.

Don

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Charley,

I could not agree with you more. How many people that raced in 1969 could afford a ZL1 Camaro or Corvette. Racing has always involved money when it comes to the upper classes.

I can build a competitive 1988 Mustang 5.0 for less the $15,000, according to 1969 dollars that would cost you $2500. I think some people miss the fact that there are allot more people today that have the money to spend then they did in the 60's. Spending money is relative, Its just more are doing it today.

Tear down is the result of not enough personnel. They don't or do not want to hire the man power. I do not blame the racer for pushing the rules as far as he can go. That is true in any form of racing.

Respect, I have respect for anybody that spends the time and money on this sport, and in most cases will never see a return.

I am between the old school and the new school, but I would much rather race in the new school. Racing old technology, is just that, old. Could any of you old timers imagine racing a 40 year old car in 1969, a four cylinder flathead in a model A. The sport in moving on whether we like it or not.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Dgal what kind of car are you racing?

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I have nothing but respect for all of you folks, for you continue to do this stuff. But when it comes to old school vs. new school, it seems to me that the cost is taking it's toll. Also I look for new blood in the sport as a guage to it's future. I wonder how many would be there if not for daddy, uncle, brother etc. that lead/provided the way. How much new blood is actually comming in. I am working hard to get there, but don't have any of the previous mentioned resources to help. I did'nt even have anyone in the neighborhood to look up to as a kid. It's tough working hard on your car, but even tougher when nobody showed you what to do! I will be old school, and then some....but I will be proud because I did it all by myself. Just like you guys did back in the day. I feel that the cost and up hill battle against well funded "teams"/"new school" is making it easier for many racers to talk themselves out of going. That's why I see so much parking lot there at Charlotte in Tom's photos. Hope to add one new name in 2011, and look foward to sittin beside ya somewhere down the road !

Wade Mahaffey

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

It's common sense that faster/higher classed cars cost more money to build and science out. That's not the question. There's certainly a limited number of people that can afford to run the big-buck cars. That's not what the "class warfare" (pun intended) we're seeing today is all about. It's not whether or not the masses could afford a ZL1 Corvette, it's about "Did the ZL1 Corvette start out in H/SA?"

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Michael, that's another question for another thread. I am Just pointing out money in racing go hand and hand. Speed coast money, the 60's are no different then today, except that there are more people with more money to spend.

Jack made three points, and this is just my perspective on how I see this sport.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Looking at Charlotte there isn't much Nostagia left in Super Stock:

Breakdown of the field by year:
1960's = 6
1970's = 1
1980's = 8
1990's = 18
2000's = 12
2010's = 3


May again support that cars too old or too new cost too much for most people.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I have raced SS in D4 for 3 years. Every race I always ask is there any new cars to look at? The answer is no. It's the same guys every event. What's going to happen when they give it up? My son is 21 and he says all the young guys are into 10.5 cars, outlaw type stuff, etc not S and SS. I love my Super Stocker, but it's so damn expensive. I broke 1 Jesel rocker a few weeks ago and about fell out of my chair when I called them to order a new one. It didn't even come with the adjuster or nut either. I need to find a cheaper hobby. LOL

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Buy or build a sreet rod???? No rules per say. As long as its safe and DOT legal build it how you see fit. You can use it 7 days a week and the rod runs/shows dont cost you $200-$300 per even to enter. You not going to win all the time anyway if ever. No expensive tow rigs/motor homes required. Maybe not as much fun as making a pass down the track but its still fun and a lot less work. Resale value is worth more also if your into the popular years and models. WTF ! Im going racing....dont pay attention to this.....lol.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Tear down is the result of not enough personnel. They don't or do want to hire the man power. I do not blame the racer for pushing the rules as far as he can go. That is true in any form of racing

Kenny,that's partially true.Stuff goes through the barn now, that when Ca. let the local tech people do their job, that would have never flown.NHRA just doesn't want to deal with it,either through laziness or fear of legal action,or both.
As far as the $$$ aspect, I agree,it always took $$$ in the upper classes.
A far as civility,There's a general lack of it in all aspects of our lives now.
It's a changing world, not a better world.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Well put. There is one common denominator as regards to Tech. There is not a leader in Tech that has the gumption and common sense as Farmer did.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Kenny-- this simply is not the case - here in D1 and probably other divisions they would like to hire new tech people but there just are not any new applicants to fill these positions as its a hard - low paying - thankless position -- and yes , I've been there and done that .....................if you know of a good candidate get them in contact with the Division office -or get them to me and i'll point them in the right direction- we'll all be glad you did .

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

1998 LT1 Firebird C/SA

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I bracket race my 31 Ford at the nostalgia races. Allmost as much fun and like you said a whole bunch cheaper but if you have to hire some one to build your hot rod the cost far surpasses the DPs and CJs in a heart beat.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Cool....I can build a hot rod far less expensive than a DP OR a new Mustang or even a 69 Camaro . I wont even think about a Hemi $$$$$$ car of any kind. I guess it all depends on what your able to do on your own and how fancy you want one.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Terry, Your telling them what I've been doing for twenty years. (check my photos) And I'm still doing it in the design and build of the 60 Corvette. Believe me I'm "choppin at the bit" to compete in the Super/Stock arena, but there's a hell of alot more to this car than that! All of my eggs are not in one basket. I'm one of those guys that was never the best at one thing. But could do alot of things pretty damn good. Hey that's what it takes to be a good Fireman!

P.S sorry to the stock racers about getting off topic

Wade Mahaffey

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I'm starting to see more and more Drag Racers on the Golf Course.
Someday, someone will figure everything out.
Fore,

pc

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Kenny,

You are dead on. There are plenty of affordable combos. The 5.0 Mustang is just one, and it would be a fun 12-second, or high 11-second ride, which is cool. I bet you could do it for under $10,000 and run pretty far under. And there are no DPs and CJs to contend with. You could also build a '80s Malibu with a 305, parts are everywhere.

Maybe I didn't race 40 years ago in the golden era, but I'm having plenty of fun and I really enjoy the friends I have made racing and the car I built, which is from my era, in fact I drove it to college.

Sure there are issues, there always were, and always will be. Life and racing isn't perfect. You can be a part of the problem, or part of the solution. It seems there are a lot of old-timers on here, and with all due respect, maybe they are just burned out and need an excuse to quit. I get it, NHRA tech isn't perfect, there are underfactored combos, the economy sucks, etc. But blaming NHRA for every single issue is lame.

Here's a fact, there are far more complaining people on the Internet than at the track. But some never get out to the track, they just sit at a computer and boo hoo about what they don't like, instead of finding something they do like, be it racing or otherwise. I'm not saying you shouldn't raise a stink from time to time, but some people just complain, complain, complain. If I was that unhappy with racing I would get out. I don't have time to be miserable over a hobby, life is too short.

Evan

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Evan, One of the most common sense post this board has ever had.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

That's my point Jack, if your not going to pay a decent wage, that means they don't want to hire.

Jack, when are you and Terry going to figure out how to use a quote. I fixed the one that you quoted me on.

Its simple, do not remove these tag, [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]. They must be in front and after the quote. I had to reverse them or it would have looked like a quote. If you looking to quote just one sentence, put the first tag in your quotes before the sentence and the last tag after the sentence.

Also, do not modified the first tag, example [QUOTE=Ken Miele;211286]. After the equal sign in the tag is the code to quote the proper post.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Jack you are correct, I worked for Div 2 for a couple years. It was a very low (what pay) paying job with long hours and time away. I really liked it and enjoyed it. I liked working in the teardowns since I am into stock and super stock, I took a interest in it. Alot, of tech guys take interest in a class or two and those are the ones that they really focus on. I had health issues come up so I had to stop going. But, I do not know of any division that LOOKS for people to join the tech crews.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

[QUOTE]. They must be in front and after the quote.

Also, do not modified the first tag, example

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Miele (Post 211286) .

Yes Teacher -- I promise never to screw up your quotes again ..........You'd do better with me if you told me you're going to beat my knuckles with a ruler like the Nuns did ---- opps , you won't get this unless you're Catholic ..........

And as for the NHRA paying better its never gonna happen - you have to love what you're doing - not the money you can make doing it ! ! !

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

good points all around Evan, and one that most of us could learn from time to time. The "fun" is one of the reasons we've got the 92 camaro I/SA car now. Its almost as much fun as the vette, and a whole lot cheaper. Heck I've been testing it on pump gas even, lol. Sure, things have changed, and some things are worth taking a stand over, but if you're not having fun, you really should find something else to do

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

There are Division tech directors who could and would straighten this out.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Anyone remember, when the cars classed in Stock had to driven to the track.
You had to have license plates on the car, and a legal registration.
Also, the exhaust sytems had to be retained.
Even the steel wheels had to be retained. You couldn't use after-market wheels that were lighter than the stock wheel.
Thats when Stock was Stock.

pc

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

The most fun/results was always due to a comination of hard work, ingenuity, trial and error and money.
Our Canadian dollar always well below the US greenback did not help the money aspect either......

There may have been fewer grey areas during tear down and protest situations given the field of cars and combinations being smaller and simpler with fewer classes.

There were always does who gave and earned respect and a minority that did not. Incidents were not ''in the open'' as they are today with the internet.

There were great things and some not so great back then...today there are also some great things and some not so great....
Could it be that the more things change the more they are the same?

Fortunately there is enough out there for us to choose where we can afford to have the most fun:)..........

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I remember 1959 when a floor shifter on a 3 speed put you in a gas class. That was the first time I ever went to the drags and I thought Id died and went to heaven at Amelia Earhart Field in Hialeah Fla., an old WW2 air base. There was no such thing as street mag type wheels for stockers then, just chrome.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Evan - yaaa - nooo - BIG yaaa - and another BIG yaaa - WOW - good talk!!! Was down at the marina again today working on the NO TIME ll and just can't believe that racing might still be cheaper than boating, oh and the harbor master said anytime you need his assistance just hail!!!

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

im not miserable because of my hobby evan, and i agree with you and others life has changed... and not for the better.

i simply posted what i missed the most about "stock eliminator"... what we run is no longer that class and i miss it.

as far as charley bob and a few others go maybe they are too young to realize what we had. i have raced what i could afford to race, not raced on someone else or my daddy's money i paid for every cent it cost, and i raised two kids etc... but that was one of the great things... it did not cost a lot, just a lot of work, trial and error, testing and truly researching your combo. > that ship has sailed it cost big bucks to play now, just look at my old wagon it might as well be a 1970's pro stocker.

i miss the integrity of the racers (im not going to discuss the integrity of NHRA greg hill has that post)...we had TEARDOWNS at EVERY race not just indy and going through the barn was critical to your reputation and the respect given to you by the other racers... and getting tossed (and ive been tossed) was embarrassing to you and your family. today its no big thing to get caught with cheating parts... just lobby to change the rules and act like you were picked on by NHRA with the old"everyone else does it" excuse.

i miss the decency of our class... maybe it is the internet's fault, maybe it is society's changing morals but what the hell happened ? every time i log onto this / other forums i see jealous, whining, accusing posts. rarely is credit given. bob shaw has an outstanding record kicking my *** in several combinations, yeah ive given him fits and won a couple of races and i could whine with the best of them, accuse him of cheating, protest him but hey i RESPECT him... that seems to be gone.

and charley bob if all three of these cause you to reflect on your attitude and comments it would be great because you fall into all three... you race on daddy's (and now someone elses) money, you embarrassed yourself and a man i respect (your dad) by getting tossed for cheating at indy, and you are first to attack and accuse with mouth and keyboard at every opportunity (like harrisons carb)...and believe it or not until i was writing this post i did not realize this, this was never intended to be a charley bob bash...sorry.

anyway im sure im gonna get a keyboard assination from you and others but hey... im entitled to my opinion, and i miss the old days... do i think they are coming back > hell no not a chance. charley bob is right it is 2010 now get off the lets go back to 1970 bandwagon.

thanks for all the replies, sorry if i disagree with some of you, and to those who agree you guys know where to find me ... in U/SA

captain jack

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

and maybe they are just old enough and experienced enough and not "kiss *****" enough to know BS when they see it.

-No tech will ever be perfect but it should be unbiased and the rules should be clear and strictly enforced.
-There will always be underfactored combos but there should never be laughable underfactored combos.
-The economy sucks because voters listened to politicians with hidden motives when they should have been voting them out.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I remember those days well, all the guys who could afford a trailer towed to the track, unloaded the race car and drove it into the track. I remember at Amarillo they announced that they would allow the trailers into the pit area because the highway patrol said the trailers were blocking the roadway and would be towed if they were not moved. That was the first year of the current incarnation of stock eliminator.

It wasn't a disadvantage to use the steel wheels as the lighter aftermarket wheels didn't exist. You could disconnect the exhaust from the manifold but no headers.

For most of that first year you had to run street tires also, at the world finals they allowed slicks because they didn't like the idea of the low horsepower cars outrunning the high power cars due to traction issues and they didn't want a Pinto world champion.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

AMEN to this post ! Thank you Jack.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

I too miss the old days. I wish NHRA never changed the cam rule which in my opinion changed everything. But, I envy everyone of you that stills races today. I sold my race car 15 years ago for all the right reasons and I have regretted it everyday since.
Guys, enjoy it while you can!

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

As someone hoping to return to racing. I've found this thread to be quite interesting. I cut my teeth cut as a pup on stock eliminator. The guys that took me under their wing were a couple of the hardest working guys I've ever had the priviledge to know, Toby and Kenny Meek. They worked their collective as@%$ off to earn their stripes. It paid off with quite a few class wins and a handful of national records in both NHRA and IHRA in the 70's. Back then the national record WAS your standard. Any car able to run under the record was a car to reckoned with. Teardown at a national or divisional was something you expected and dealt with. It wasn't a pleasent thing to be bounced from tech.

Looking back in reflection. Their car wasn't that trick. Back then, you could still build a car from junkyard parts. It's a lot more difficult today. 90% of what I've ammassed(sic?) for my 79 Firebird IHRA car has been swap meet "junk" and other peoples castoffs. As well as pieces I've acquired over the internet forums (both here and on RJ). With everything I keep reading, I wonder IF it's going to be worth building this car. Yes it is an IHRA crate motor car, which that seems to be looked down upon by many on the forum. A), I can afford, at least think I can, to build it, B) once I get the ball rolling, it will take less time to get it to the track.

I'll admit racing was always a lot of hard work and cost a tremendous amount of money. In fact not too very long ago, Toby Meek asked my wife, WHY is Bob building another race car after 20 years? Doesn't he remember how expensive it was? The thing is, racing was fun.

Maybe I should have my head examined. The cost factor started making it less fun back then. Not just the cost of a car but tow rigs added to the cost. I remember when a crew cab pickup was the thing (late 1970's), then the enclosed trailers came into vogue (1980's). When we were bracket racing in the late 80's, most people had more in their tow rigs than I had in my whole operation. Now I go to the track, I see motorhomes and semi's, LOL! If I were blessed with that kind of cash, I could have a killer operation.

I too remember when cars were driven to the track. I won a couple of class trophies with my 74 Pinto. Through the muffler, Crager SS wheels with street tires. Trickest thing about that car was the tuneup. Even back then at the local track, you had to race 3-4 rounds just to get into the eliminator. I even remember when it wasn't unusual to see steel wheels on SS and MP cars.

It isn't the 1970's anymore or even the 1980's for that matter. I have realised, one axiom is still true about racing, "it still hasn't gotten any cheaper"!

Not certain I've added anything to the thread but guess I've had my vent for the day. I feel I understand where Jack is coming from.

Re: top 3 things i miss the most about stock
 

Jack, I'm not here to bash you or anyone who has nostalgic memories of racing in the "old days"; I was there, too, and it was an era that afforded good experiences. However, maybe time has smoothed over some of the reality of those times so that now our memories are more romantic impressions, tainted by remembering the good and choosing to filter out the bad.

Integrity?? Really?? Why do you think they had teardowns at every race?? Do you think they were showing what lily-white knights everybody was?? Hell, no! When Wally gave Farmer the job as National Tech DIrector, Farmer said the only way he would take the job would be if Wally would back him up on every decision he made. He and Wally knew that widespread cheating was preventing the sport from growing. Stock and Super Stock (and Gas classes and Competition eliminator) was being overrun with so much cheating across the country that the openly obvious unfairness for local participants was driving competitors away. Local tech people were no match for the schemers and cheaters. Can you imagine trying to keep up with what the factories were turning out each year in the early 60s with no tech specs and no place to get information? It took years to get the classification and tech information systems that define our racing organized and working to give some standard definition to the stock classes. Before that happened there was so much cheating and no way to control it that every winner was assumed to be a cheater. Cheating has always been the bane of every technically-based sport, so don't think we are living in unique times. We are all schemers, looking for an advantage. Reputations were built following the the teardowns, but character was not.
This doesn't seem to be any different today than it ever was. The internet provides a venue so that more people have access to the belly-aching and poor-mouthing that people spit out, but that's about it. I worked in a speed shop for a little while earlier on in my life when Stock, Super Stock, Modified were hotly contested every weekend at some local track and the same type of whining, accusing, name calling crap that you read on this forum went on every week as the racers would come into the shop, and I contributed my share. Luckily, the little groups and factions then were pretty well isolated to themselves so their foolishness rarely was a public issue. Now, as a result of improved communications, the whole racer community can hear that kind of crap.
The respect level is still there. You may not see it written in people's posts here, but I know it still exists in the face-to-face interaction at the races. You would not have the congratulatory posts that are so common here, or posts like the recent one praising the performance of Wade Owens if respect had gone away. And you have to give respect to be positioned to receive it.

So, Jack, I think everything you mentioned in your post is probably true. But, it has always been that way; it depends whether you want to see a half-full glass or a half-empty glass. My saying that does not mean I think everything is hunky-dory with class racing and that nobody should do or say anything. Without people working within the sport, it would have disintegrated a long time ago. We have to keep pushing to make it better.

Relative increased cost of competing is the biggest detriment to the sport. Too much emphasis and hoopla on the "glory" of going fast at any cost is another, but if you do away with heads-up competition the attraction for the competitor will rapidly diminish. NHRA makes lots of mistakes, but that is the nature of trusting systems and organizations - their ability to administer will eventually be reduced to the lowest common factor. Fools and people with no character will always invade public arenas, so support and add to a culture that makes them ineffective because rules won't.

I do think the sport could benefit from some competitor-level attitude adjustments and moral reformations, though.