Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Well, I guess that's something. They used the excuse that it has happened before. The problem with that is that they didn't learn anything from it. They also brought up the 275HP LT-1 that they say is now at 325HP. That's 50HP over a period of 12-14 years. The one Drag Pack car has gotten near 40HP in a month or so, and that's great, I guess. But how far off does that tell you they are? The problem is, it has happened before, so they should be capable of seeing it coming, and doing something about it quickly.

While I can appreciate what they propose to do, add higher HP penalties for extreme cases, there's a huge hole in their process. They say they accept the ratings the OEM's give them. Now, GM, with the LT-1 got over them in the nineties. Now, Mopar and Ford have gotten over them repeatedly since 2008. How long does that go on? We're obviously going to be seeing new engines and new package cars for at least a while. How long is NHRA going to allow OEM's to get over on them, and thereby, get over on the racers? GM did it with the LT-1 years ago, I guess, and now Ford and Mopar have had their revenge. Now that all of the "big three" have gotten over on NHRA and the racers, isn't it time to stop this permanently?

NHRA has been there before, they've let this happen before. What does it say about them if they just continually allow it to happen? They could have already put the cars in their own class just as they did the fuel injected cars a few years ago. It's not like they've never seen anything like this before, nor is it like they've not had any experience fixing it. So, you have to wonder why they let it happen again. At least you do if you don't really know why.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

After reading this article I still feel the best way to deal with these cars is to put them in a FX class. There is too many ways to get around the AHFS. If the drivers of these cars wanted to they could milk these HP ratings for 4-5 more years.

Another aspect of the whole situation is that the rule book states stock cars are"factory production assembled,showroom available,and in the hands of the general public. These cars do not follow those guidlines. We can still make everyone happy with the FX classes. The Factories will be more than happy to advertise these cars as "Factory race cars". It would probably draw a bigger customer and collector base.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I think what they meant was they adjusted to rating from 275 to 325 in one shot. it wasn't a gradual thing. The LT1 rating is 346 now. The FX classes seems like a good idea if they use 1 lb weight breaks like the FI classes were.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Yes, but pull a low mileage LT1 and put it on an engine dyno, and you will find they don't make anywhere near 346 hp. I think some of that performance is a more efficient car.
I'd just about bet money on a 360" DP making close to 375.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Good article. Once a new AHFS scale is adapted then the CJ & DP teams will have to further reduce the throttle blade angle with the computer controlled TPS.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

They are going to have a new heads up eliminator for the new cars (only) - with weight breaks depending on induction and cubic inch.

It will be a qualified 16 or 32 car field like Pro-Stock

The question is who do you think they are going to get rid of?

Have a very nice day


LOL


:-) peace

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

sounds like a great Comp Eliminator class

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Not one place in that article was there any thing about getting input from stock and super stock racers to fix this problem. With the prior bad judgment of the tech department letting these cars run in stock and super stock with the bogus hp ratings they have why would anyone think they are going to fix the problem? What happens when Ford and Chrysler change the specs a little for the new model years and give them even more bogus hp numbers?

There are lots of stock and super stock racers that knew how bogus these cars were as soon as they saw the specs and compared them to the older cars. If we knew why didn't NHRA know? Also that BS about not hitting any combination with hp before it ran is total crap. The 403 Olds motor that Al Provost use to run was hit with 90 hp before it ever sat foot on the track. I think it went from 190 to 280. Also almost all the old cars with SAE net hp ratings were re-factored before they ran. Yep the LT1's and LS!'s were bogus as well, but you have to remember Pontiac and GMC were the official cars and trucks for NHRA. That didn't make it right and a lot of racers quit because of those cars.

These cars need to be in their own classes in Stock and need to be re-factored for SS. My God that Ford 352 that's in the guide at 285 for SS has 230cc intake runners with a 1000 cfm throttle body and 11 1/2 to 1 compression.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Quote by D.Gracia:
“At Reading, Pa., we are going to meet with some of the other people on the (Stock and Super Stock) committee,” Gracia said. “We’re going to brainstorm some of this and try to figure out what direction we will go with this, what makes more sense. The other thing that is very important that folks out there need to understand is not one person in this department can make that decision of what horsepower is going to be used. It has to go through the NHRA Stock and Super Stock committee.”

Greg,maybe you missed this?None the less it seems the S/SS committee is there just for NHRA to use the way they feel to justify any decisions they make.I think the guys really work to get changes but in the end it's the old in one ear out the other with any input they suggest.I just signed a survey circulated by our rep,Kent Hanley, about the new cars.I hope they at least consider the results.I'm not holding my breath though.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

This would be a good idea if they get rid of the alcohol cars at the points races in the process.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Same deal with Dave Boertmans 71 383 Mopar and Ron Gary's 455 Olds back in 1971. They were moved up one class higher than they were in before they hit the track for the first time and before they ever ran the 1971 Winternationals. Just who are they trying to fool?

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

How about getting hit with 15HP before the car made pass 1 in Competition ANYWHERE??????????

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

The new CJ's and Dp's are NOT Stock eliminator cars. There is no need to institute a new class. Put them in Super Stock where they belong-period. Everyone seems to forget the EFI cars. Built a class all their own and what happened? Put them back in the eliminator again due to too many classes. The new CJ's and DP's are Super Stock not stock!

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Do da, Do da. Who remembers the music to this one, I seem to forget.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Also happened to Buddy Ingersoll at Indy years ago, he changed hoods/classes on his car, tech guy saw what had been changed from the last race, hit his "new" combo with hp before he had even teched!

Wade O

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

The only real problem NHRA has is listening to all you ***** Clowns from day to day cry about how it’s not fair. This is what is going to happen if you all don’t quit crying. NHRA is going to make STK for 1980 and newer fuel injection cars ONLY. I’am not blowing smoke up you’re ***** this is a real good possibility and one of many solutions on NHRA’s white board. NHRA is sick of hearing about how someone’s car is not as fast as everyone else and how it’s not fair. You people are killing yourself and don’t even know it
And as far as FX classes go get out of the 1960’s this will never happen and it’s a stupid idea.
This is my question to all of you. Is there any form of motorsports that allows old cars to still be competitive over new cars?

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Mr Downing If you were still only affording to race your wagon and not using your daddies money to run the under -rated Mustang,you would be on our side and you damn well know it. Now you turn your back on its original roots because you drive a" New FI Car" Must be nice *** Clown! By the way you were a nicer guy before you became an advocate for the "I have more than you class" Good luck with your driving skills hahahahah.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I race with my own money and have for the past few years. I do have sponsors like other racers to help offset the cost of racing. And if someone wanted you to race for them you would to.
As far as my dad goes I work for him part time after I work my 6:00 to 4:30 full time job. And we all work very hard for what we have. So if he wants to build new cars with his sons I don’t see a problem. But don’t tell me I ‘am some rich kid just racing off daddies money. If you think that you don’t know Bob D very well.

The more I think about it your right my dad pays me for working for him so I guess in a way I do race off daddies money.

I'am still a nice guy I just have a different view

Real names no games

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

If NHRA only allowed 1980 and newer cars in stock then stock elim. would cease to exist and who would NHRA get all of their money from.......No wait.....STOCK ceased to exist in 1985 !

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Answer = AA/FI + BB/FI and AA/FIA + BB/FIA and maybe a CC/FI if needed . let them have at it .with the right weight break they could all pretty much run these classes....... Just a suggestion for NHRA.....That would even be a fun class to watch.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I don't see what is so stupid about the FX class. These cars are Factor Experiments. Seems a natural extension to what they are producing.

Your last question is misleading. There is not a single person that suggests the old cars to be competitive "over" the new cars. Just a level playing field like they made with the fuel injected cars in the past.

Doesn't seem like a difficult concept to grasp, IMHO.

Don

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Wait! I thought of one. Nostalgia drags! You can't race a new car. Pre-1980 or older. There ya go. :D

Don

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Charlie, all you want is to continue to have an unfair advantage over your competitors. You talk about us crying, that's BS. When did standing up for what you believe in become crying. These new cars are wrong and 90% of stock and super stock racers think so. If something isn't done you and about 30 to 40 owners and drivers of these new cars will be racing together by yourselves.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Don't try to scare us with threats! Many have parked them already rather than pay travel cost and entry fees only to be outrun by a tenth in a headsup race.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

That is the only compelling reason to justify the current classification of these Factory Experiments. The ones that support them must feel they need this advantage to go rounds.

I think you are a little low on your percentage. The poll here shows that figure, but I have yet to run into one person that races stock/super stock, their crew, or their family/friends that feel these cars are classified properly. I even know one crew member of a Drag Pak that complains more than anyone about these cars. He is there for the trip to races, but he shall remain nameless for his own protection. :cool:

Don

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Question of the day. Who took polls before the same six guys on the internet????

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I would be real careful about disagreeing with Charlie D. Just when you think you are think you are safe, out of the blue Charlie may decide to make a U-Turn with the Downing Farms Gator and run your a** down. Even if you thought you were on the good side of him it might happen to you. Sorry Charlie I couldn't resist that one.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Back to the actual thread:

I find it interesting that they are hitting the Mopar's with HP but no mention of the CJ's which are running as much as one second faster than the other cars in the same class.

History, and the NHRA, repeats itself. In the '70's the NHRA legislated the Hemi out of Pro Stock but left the Fords and Chevy's alone, now it looks like the NHRA is once again zero'd in on Mopar's but not the bogus Fords.

You Ford guy's should look at NASCAR history. Bill France decided the Hemi's were too fast so he outlawed them with a stroke of a pen and the NHRA did the same thing in the '70's.

Why aren't the Fords getting hp? When the Fords first came out everyone was yelling the roof off about how they were too fast and would ruin Stock racing but now the Mopar's are getting the hp and all the bitchin while the Ford's continue to make AA/SA, A/SA their own little play ground.

Before all you Ford guy's bust on me, remember, I think both cars should be in SS just like the '68 Hemi car's.


JimR

Just to add fuel to the fire: I think if the Thunderbolt's are allowed in stock then the '65 A990 Hemi Mopar's should be allowed to run in AA/SA.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Treessavoy,
You have the best idea I've heard in this whole deal, Let the '68 Darts and 'Cuda's into Stock as well as the A990, L88 'Vette's and other bad ***** musclecars to tangle with the DP's and CJ's. Plus you would cover the new 'Vettes as well.

The heck with the A/FX classes, just slide the alphabet down where "A" is 6 or 6.5 lbs/hp and start the 1lb breaks just a couple of letters sooner. Whala!, no additional classes that the few remaining contingency sponsors have to pay out contingency money for.

See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

NHRA is not picking on the Mopars but is instead implementing the AHFS at the 1.25 seconds under the index just the way it was set up. The Fords that went 1.25 under got the 3.25% horsepower just like the mopars did. Go back and check your facts before you cry foul. The 1 second under is a trigger for the 6 month review but 1.25 under is an automatic 3.25% the next working day after any event.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

None of this crap will work guy's , They are going to look for the easiest,cheapest,no man power way to do something, Danny states that it has to be a Perfect world to get any type of HP info on any car now so what makes you think they are going to add any new combos anymore unless the factory is involved to give them a Bogus HP ??

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Regarding the CJ & DP cars they are either classed wrong or the HP ratings are no- where near realistic---Think of it this way even if they sandbag ,the POTENTIAL POWER is there to stay ahead of a similiarly classed car that IS NOT either a CJ or DP while racing in any race--They also because of the Bogus HP or Class classification have the POTENTIAL to be quicker than another car that is PROPERLY HP rated or class classified--We are not comparing apples to apples here but we ARE comparing apples to oranges. Unless or until the HP ratings AND/OR the class designations are corrected this inequality will continue to exist. They currently have an unfair advantage that is not available to ANY other car that is not EITHER a CJ or DP and it is not going to easily correct itself. I love the fact that the factories have chosen to get involved in both Stock & Super Stock again but it must be on a level playing field which it currently is not--Now rumor has it that NHRA is taking/going to take a look at the current situation but do not look for any Corrections/Remedies whatever until after Pomona this year... My K/sa car is nowhere near a 1.25-1.50 under car much less a 1.00 car and because of this inequity it is parked other than for my own testing and hopefully improving on my combo--Comp387

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I think that NHRA is still hurting from the Pro Stock Truck lawsuit and may be reluctant to place horsepower factors arbitrarily on the Fords and Mopars and that is why they are using the AHFS to place the horsepower factors where they are. The system is flawed but it is the one that is in place. While some of you think that they should be more aggressive, I think they are protecting they own rear. While most of you don't think the changes come fast enough at least they are looking at making the system more responsive and fair. I have said right along that the AHFS is the problem but it took the CJ's and Drag Pak cars to show how flawed the system really is.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

The DPs/CJs HP factor and Pro Stock Truck issue is apples and oranges.The only thing in common is stupidity on their part.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

In a perfect world we wound't have to deal with the like's of Danny & his Parriot Bruce!

Danny states that it has to be a Perfect world to get any type of HP info on any car now so what makes you think they are going to add any new combos anymore unless the factory is involved to give them a Bogus HP ??

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Are the factors on the DP and CJ cars off? Yes, they are off. My question to all the stock eliminator racers is this; do you only go to the races to win class or do you go to win the event? I'm sure Nitro Joe has enough stats on how many DP and CJ cars have prevented the original Detroit Muscle from winning races this year. Everyone is complaining about the CJ's and DP's, what about the number one qualifier in stock from Indy? Really, how many of you who compete in AA/S(A) thru D/S(A) have been denied a race win because of the new cars? The last time I checked class wins was not what determined who the national champion was.
So I guess you guess don't like Jimmy Defrank becuase I believe he owns new Mustang and a 69 Camaro.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

There were a couple of instances of the new cars sending well tuned top notch cars home early at Indy this year. Doug Duell sent John Shaul home comes to mind. Why limit it to D/S(A). The Drag Paks go down to H I believe and the new combos coming out can start at the bottom to cause havoc all the way up.

Speaking of National Champions. I wonder how former World Champion Lee Zane feels right now about not qualifying at Indy due to the new cars pushing him down the sheet. I guess it got his attention enough to join them with DeFrank's car.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

How about like NASCAR does;

Impound a car at a race, then put it on a dyno instead of all this ***** footing around.

No argument with the results.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

just bring in a rear wheel dyno to the track.