Red light debate update.
 

The latest report out of Wash DC states that rogue forces in the Pentagon,led by followers of G W Bush and Dick Cheney and Black Water,have hatched a plot to kidnap Bill Dedman and hustle him off to an undisclosed location to lead a team of interrogators of Muslim Extremists.
Top officials in the Obama administration are appalled.
HEAD FOR THE HILLS BILL.

Re: Red light debate update.
 

That's brutal Ed...brutal...

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Lol

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Funny! We love ya Bill!

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I've said it before . I can live with it either way.
I just put together a 12.0 Sportsman "chaser", so I could look at this debate with a self centered attitude, but I don't.
What I don't see is why some people are so adamant about keeping the status quo.
A simple software change,...both cars leave the starting beam...the worse red light shows on the tree.
What is this phobia about? Do any of you lower class racers think you are any less of a racer than someone with a AA/S er? Why would you want and cheer for this imbalance?

Just curious.

" That's the way it's always been " doesn't tell me anything.
We know that.

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Mark,you been drinking the Kool Aid?:>):>):>):>)

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See, another " non answer" LOL

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Should be worst red light . The same as the finish line farthest run out looses.
Lets level the playing field at both ends of the track.

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That's really funny Ed, and goes perfectly along with your typical M.O. to dazzle 'em with distractions, and baffle 'em with bull****; do whatever you can to keep attention away from the real question of how this lopsided rule ever survived THIRTY-SEVEN YEARS of screwing the second car to leave, without getting fixed.

I attribute that to people getting comfortable with it to the extent that they just never considered the effect that a change COULD have, if the second car to leave had a worse red light than the first, AND WAS, SOMEHOW held accountable for it!

I know I never gave it a second thought. I was too steeped in tradition.

By the way, this "worse red light" system is in no way, MY IDEA! I'm not that smart... by a long shot. That much should be obvious, by now....

As best I can tell, it came from a guy in Fremont, California who used to run a '51 Stude in NHRA Stock, until it was legislated out of competition.

He put a blower on it, and ran Brackets with it for many years. Robert Mikulic.

He explained this "worse red light" system to me one day, and I thought he was nuts.

It took me about a month of deliberating to finally understand that what he was suggesting made sense.

Some people seem to understand it, and some people don't. Took me awhile. Guess it takes all kinds....

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Bill, read very carefully what I am writing here.

1) i, and most others, believe what you are saying about it being fair, its right there if you do the math. SO give that argument up.

2) Things have been this way for a very long time. People have built their cars to these fundamental rules, whether bracket, class, or otherwise for decades, knowing the inherent advantages and disadvantages of faster or slower cars. And YES there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

3) stock and SS is not lagging behind the times here. If bracket racing and all other forms of handicapped racing were already doing the WORST redlight rule then i think you would have a lot more support. I would seriously suggest you speak to some track owners and division directors about trying this in their bracket program. If it becomes widely adopted, then you may have a case for S/SS going to it. Until then work on it somewhere else.

I personally feel like there are much bigger issues in stock/ss to be dealt with at this time (the DP/CJ cars, Payouts, and figuring out a way to get more younger racers involved, etc) than trying to be the mavericks of drag racing by changing one of the fundamentals of how we run a race.

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the redlight rule is probably UNFAIR.

i spend .10% of what ken meile spends racing
i ALWAYS hook perfectly
i solo for class quite often, pick up my $400, a wally and into the beer by noon at indy
i get the same enjoyment out of winning (maybe MORE!) than the fast guys

would any of you disagree that these too are UNFAIR ?

we all pick what we want (and afford) to race ...

see ya racing, and by the way i hope the track sucks !
captain jack

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Another LAME reply......seems to be the norm.... :-(

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and by the way i just used ken as an example, he is another guy with a 50 year old classic car but his is a tad faster... im sure he is not even close to a leader in $$$$$ spent per pass in the eliminator !!!!!!!!!!!!!

jack

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We probably should have stayed with the flagman and handicapped by car lengths. Oh, and what's all this color television crap. We were perfectly happy with black & white.
Progress & technology sucks.

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My sentiments exactly

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Care to counterpoint anything that I said? Or are you jus going to be LAME?

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Jack,
You're another one of my heroes. I WISH I could do what you accomplish on a limited budget... plus for its class, your car is FAST! (How did that 3-speed work out?)

But the idea that Ken Miele's car is also fast, but he doesn't win a lot of races seems to me, to be not in any way pertinent to the red light rule. I don't see the connection.

A bad rule is a bad rule. And, almost everyone admits, it's not a fair rule. I admire Ken's efforts, but even HE could to fall victim to this rule when he runs a faster-dialed car. That's not a likelihood, but it's definitely a possibility.

Let's do him the favor of trying to get it changed.

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You skirted around the SUBJECT at hand.
It's like the battered wife syndrome...."he always beat me so I thought that was the way it was supposed to be"............. :-)

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The Battered wife........
"Well he's been beating me since we got married 23 years ago so I figured that was the way it was supposed to be......."
But the breakout rule was changed...LONG AGO........ :-)

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For those of you who seem to enjoy this "status quo" so much, need to remember,

1975-6 flat out racing, when the most underrated combo usually won.

1977, when you had to be dialed ON the index throughout the whole meet, or

1978, when you had to dial under, one hour before the start of eliminations and be stuck with it all day ??

The changes that ensued when the newer electronics were available, were all positive; wouldn't you agree ?

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ED, are u off ur meds again ????????????????????/:confused:

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address point number 3, where this has not been implemented anywhere, and until it has, class racing has much bigger fish to fry

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Another lame distraction from the issue at hand...........

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I agree Mark, which is why I sided with Bill last year when this debate was waged. Chad Rhodes brought up some credible points about us choosing are car/engine/performance combos, however if the worst redlight rule won't be considered (thus putting the same pressure on the second driver to leave the line as the first), then the worst breakout rule should be repealed...what's fair at one end of the track should be fair at the other!!!

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I can envision a good close final...................ruined by two guys on the brakes so hard the both run into each other. That's an aweful idea

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Chad, I have read your arguments and one seems contradictory. You said that class racing has bigger fish to fry and that it is important to get younger people involved. You mean younger racers who do not have a lot of money to spend on a race car ?.... that would probably have to build a slow car, and would have to go in knowing they have a disadvantage from the get go ? Seems you could entice younger racers with smaller budgets better, if they knew they would have a equal shot. That might boost intrest. I have no problem with the worst red light rule, equals things up.

Thanks

Ryan Smith 723R

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Let's not have them get on the brakes and bring out the first or worst double break out rule.

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I don't know that it's so awful, as long as your chassis/suspension/brakes are set up as many racers who hit the binders at the finish line are, so as to keep their vehicles under control no matter what...I remember a final from back in the late '70s to early '80s between I believe Jim Van Cleve, and Dave Boertman...both had Super Stockers that were at the fast end of Super Stock Eliminator, and both locked up their brakes so hard that they had a photo taken of them trailing tire smoke from their cars, and no wreck. Granted Glendora frowns on that now, but as long as you're not trailing smoke (or get squirley), then it's been acceptable because so many racers do it.

Bottom line, my ideal may be awful (sorry no "e" in awful), but neither is not having a worse redlight adjustment made to the tree, to give the same pressure to the faster car in a handicapped race for his rt., as the slower car. In a heads-up race, both cars have the same pressure, so why not change the tree for handicapped races too. As far as I'm concerned, if it's not changed, then I'd like to see wheelie bars ousted from rwd stockers if they won't be allowed on fwd stockers too....

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100% spot on.

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Chad, I'm not sure what math you are referring to but I've showed the math on the last thread. I'll show it again at the end of this post. Bill Dedman and his supporters are the only ones making sense. The rule clearly favors faster cars from a probability standpoint. Who cares if Bill is a bracket racer? I am a bracket racer too. Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know if you've noticed but from Friday-Sunday, Stock and Super Stock are in fact bracket races. I still have not read one single valid argument defending the rule as it stands, not even one! Unless of course "That's the way it is.. Stop whining...Bill is only a bracket racer, not a SS racer..." can be considered valid with their clear and concise reasoning.

If the only thing keeping it from being changed however many years ago was a software issue, then there is no reason not to change it now. The Worst red light rule is currently in effect for Top Fuel, Funny Car, Pro Stock, Pro Stock Bike, Super Street, Super Comp, Super Gas, Super Stock Class, and Stock Class. Why not for Stock and Super Stock eliminations? As far as brackets, the rule should also be introduced and enforced in all classes, especially in Super Eliminator where both drivers leave off the top bulb at the same time with the crosstalk feature. Give me one good reason why the first guy to redlight should ever lose in Super? I'm guessing his dragster might possibly distract the other dragster's delay box..

Here it is in stat terms again. We will use discrete probability and analyze our sample space of four possible outcomes: both drivers green, first guy green and second guy red, first guy red and second guy green, both drivers red. In order for an event to be a "fair" event in the world of probability, all possible outcomes but possess equal probability, in this case each of the 4 outcomes should have a probability of 1/4 or .25. With our current system, the first two scenarios possess a probability of .25 (Probability of first guy going green = .5 AND probability of second guy going green = .5 so we multiply these to get a probability of .25 for this outcome. Same calculation for second outcome)

However, the third scenario possesses a probability of 1/2 or .5. (Probability of first guy going red = .5 AND probability of second guy going green = 1 since he/she has already won. Multiply these and we get .5). The probability of the last event is actually 0 because currently it can't happen and we revert to scenario 3. Since each outcome doesn't have the same probability, this event fails the "fair" event test. Conclusion: The first driver to leave is 25% more likely to lose the race on the starting line than the second driver.

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Oddly, it seems both drivers in these races must take a shot at the tree.

Why do faster cars in handicapped races get welfare? Why are they handed free passes?

Why are A/S cars so afraid?

In 1978, did Glidden wonder why he, most always the fastest car, have to take a shot at the tree against these slower cars? It would seem so unfair why the faster car would have to have an equal chance of a foul start.

Today, the faster cars in handicapped races seem weak, wimpy and terrified: They have their hand out for a a free meal.

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Tee-shirts for sale:

I'm always the last car to leave in a handicapped race, and I Am a Coward!

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Glidden running Pro Stock in 1978? That is heads up. Are you nuts? You don't actually race do you? That's funny right there, I don't care who ya are. :D

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Read it again Ed, I understand what he is saying. When you get what his point is maybe you won't be so quick to try to marginalize him. Jim



.

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Jim, its posts like this that marginalize him

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What does that have to do with handicaps? All this whining on this message board means nothing anyway. Has no effect on the rules. Why do people that don't actually have a race car and actually race with us think their opinion means anything to us anyway?

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x2
Same old crying bitches..
Stick with IHRA and KEYBOARD RACING..
WWWWHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

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there has to be something said about the advantage of leaving first and having a clean tree....is nobody else distracted by a competitor driving by the tree when you are spotting someone 3-5 tenths

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Anybody that says they are not, run such a low class they always leave first and don't have to deal with it.

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Mikey,would you like to try my car out to see how much of an advantage we have?:>):>):>)