What Do You Think About This?
 

I was wondering what you guys think about this story. I wasn't going to post anything about this, but since he's already written about it on an internet magazine, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to point you to it:

http://www.moparmax.com/columns/mopartoya/v_10-1.html


There are a few details he left out about the end of this story. I may tell you more about it after there are a few responses.


-Toby

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

can't wait to hear the details but I wouldn't tell anyone i did anything like that.

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Is it legal/safe to use regular pipe insulation for roll bar padding?Is it dense enough?
As far as the carb goes.It was a T&T and was used to see if they did have carb issues.No harm done.I bet their times had the other H car guys buzzing though.And they did go home.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Ed,

You need to read it again. They didn't put on the AVS carb until after they made their first qualifying pass on Saturday. They picked up 1.25 seconds and 15 MPH between the first and second qualifier.


-Toby

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

You get 10 points for tech and 10 for no-show first round. There are no points for qualifying so I would agree with Ed that there was no harm done. I also agree with Chad about not telling anyone - especially on the internet!

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It also would have affected the ladder, moving up instead of bing at/near the bottom.

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very true, aside from the fact that it just ain't right

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You're right about that, Mike. It definitely would have affected who ran who in first round so I'll rescind my statement of "no harm done".

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Final Order:
http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2010#indextop

Ladder: http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2010#indextop

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2010#indextop

Using the 13.2 run during the morning session, that would have put him dead last (#28), at more than a second over the Index. With the illegal carb, he ended up #18. Instead of running Don Elgin, he was paired with Larry Peterson.

As it was, Larry won his round, and Don got his round win anyways (over Toby, no small feat), that he should have won anyway. But who knows how the rest of the ladder and rounds would have gone with the "correct" ladder. Larry would have run Mark Faul first round with the correct ladder, so who's to say he would have won. And etc etc etc

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Bottom line........ they were illegal and as he admitted, they were cheating. If it had been a TnT day instead of qualifying I would say no problem. However they were cheating and made qualifying passes at an official NHRA race and affected the ladder. To brag about it on the internet is just plain stupid. If I were the Division Tech Director I would tell them to bring a set of gaskets with them the next time out. Jim

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

It was wrong. I wonder if it was their idea not to run the race, or were they afraid the person who loaned them the AVS would tell someone and they would get DQ'd, fined and a year suspension. I can't believe they did this article.

Raul

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

I did miss the part about Sat runs.Sorry Toby.They should have to come back with a set of gaskets.And the team member who is a so called tech man should have his certification yanked for at least one year.
How about using the pipe insulation?is it legal?safe?

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The pairs of 1 vs 15, 2 vs 16 and 3 vs 17 would have been the same. Every pair from 4 vs 18 to 14 vs 28 would have been different that what actually happened.

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Step away from the pipe! Not a good move here, known illegal car making qualifing runs at a NHRA points race. Is the rest of the story that they got sent home not on their choice but a request by others?

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As others have said, why would you post about it on the internet? I think what they did shows a lack of respect to the Stock Eliminator class and especially a lack of repect to their fellow competitors.

Also, as others have said, it effects the ladder. What about other racers in the same class? They have worked for years on their combo and these guys just bolt on a carb and are running with them. What if they would have beat one of these other cars heads-up?

I was scheduled to run them in the third round. Nobody likes a narc, but there was no way I was going to let them race against me if we did meet. Either they don't show up or I'm going to the tech director. I still had a chance to win the Division title and good chance to get into the top ten at that point. If they were already say a tenth under the index and they did something illegal to pick it up a few tenths I wouldn't really have a problem with that, but they were more than a second over the index before they put the other carb on. They had no business winning any rounds.

The person who loaned them the carb had no idea they were going to use it in qualifying. He was told they wanted to use it to see if they could get it to rev up above 5000 RPM.

On Saturday night the carb owner called them and told them they shouldn't run the carb because they have already changed the ladder and there are people here trying to gain points to move up in the standings or even win a championship. It's not fair to them.

The carb owner told me when they showed up on Sunday they were going to run the carb in eliminations. The carb owner told them no you're not. You can either put the legal carb back on and dial the index or pack up and leave. They decided to leave.


-Toby

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

NHRA tech should look into this, a test & tune is one thing but you don't use illegal parts to qualify with!!!!!, let's see i think my gas is bad, i'll try some ERC or q16, or i think theres something wrong with my heads, i'll try those dart casting. An NHRA points meet or national is not the place to T&T, try your local bracket race first untill your ready, What a dope!! and yes it changed the ladder witch could have changed the way div7&6 ended.

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i wonder if the idiot even knows what he did? i agree it is very disrespectful to the class. I also had a feeling those were the type of details we were going to hear. We don't need assholes like him class racing. Of course on the flip side I'm shocked that the bracket racers in here haven't taken up for him yet "what's the big deal, its just a bracket race..............we can add those clowns to the list of those who need to bring gaskets

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Using the wrong carb is nothing new. People have been kicked out for it many times before. I think most people do it to move up the qualifying sheet then put the legal carb back on for eliminations.

As far as I know the penalty for getting caught with the wrong carb is only a DQ from that race. There is no suspension. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Bolting on a bigger carb is probably the easiest way to cheat. I think it should deserve more than a one race suspension.


-Toby

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

I think bolting on a bigger carb falls under "flagrant" violation and would receive a suspension. being .003 over on the cam isn't flagrant, neither would being .005 over on venturi size, however having the WRONG carb that is bigger isn't a mistake

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

what if some one did something like that and ran 1.30 under,got up the next day and left the track.saying he broke or what never.would/could they hit the combo for hp?only saying what if.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Toby, I believe you are right. DQ for that race only. As you know, we had that very thing happen, this year, at the Seattle points race, and he was sent home, no fine or suspension.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

His friends and companions should explain to him - in no uncertain terms - the error of his ways

A divisional points race is no place for crap like this

We do not need tech to talk to him - we need to - as a racing fraternity

A band of brothers regardless of our brand preference - who all believe this is just plain wrong

I am surprised MOPAR wants there name on the article



:-) peace

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

There ya go.

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Toby - It was wrong . Period ............And why they would brag about it is beyond me -- maybe some of you racers on the left coast need to have a serious chat with these folks about affecting the outcome of championships etc .................

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

I think this happens WAY more often than people think. I would like to see hoods opened for some sort of inspection after time runs at divisional events. Check a carb, pull a valve cover, check for aluminum driveshafts, etc. I'd bet you would see quite a few cars slow down. As this thread points out, it usually the cars at the bottom of the ladder that cheat more than the guys at the top!

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I don't know about div 6, but he could have driven past the scales here in Div 4 and the run would not have made it to the qualifying ladder.

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I know that in Div 4 Wesley has mad us carry our carbs to tech, he painted them, then did "hood checks" throughout the weekend.

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The illegal carb thing is Wrong! As a Div 6 H/SA competitor I was not in Medford, if I was I would be PISSED! That being said I have met Chris and I think he is a great guy, he and his team are always out to have fun. Those out here in the 6 have seen me trying and fighting with my car getting it to run, sometimes it works ,sometimes not, and sometimes it breaks. In all of that my thought process has never been to use illegal parts. I was at the Seattle divisional when the team mentioned was punted and i feel the same then as I do now...WHY? Running under index knowing your car is legit is almost euphoric ,as it is something not everyone can do, almost as good as winning an event. At the very least he admittted the wrong doing but at the end of the day is the price worth it? Respect of the fellow racers isnt easily gotten but easily lost, the tech dept. will bring out the microscope (hopefully) and the outcome of an important race was changed.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Swapping stuff at a T&T is one thing. Doing it at a points meet qualifying day isn't. It affected the ladder and pairings.I guess he just didn't think of that.What makes me wonder how that man thinks is why he published photos and put that story on the Internet.What he needs to probably do is take that legal carb and give it and the proper money to one of the carb guys out there that would make it fast and legal- Clark Holroyd, Dean Oliver,Val Hedworth,etc,although if I were them,I might not want their business.

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I believe that this year it is legal. Hasn't the rule been changed for next year?

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There. That was simple. I just posted this link on their comments page.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

I am gratified that you guys have read my work and mortified that I really stepped in something deep and stinky once again. I write for a bunch of people who have no idea about Stock Eliminator drag racing and I try to make it interesting to get their butts in the stands. I guess I made it too interesting this time. It didn't occur to me that 3000+ class racers would be reading it. Maybe Mopar Max will give me a raise or fire me. Either would be fine.

I am very sorry for what I did. I should have known better and now I do. I tried to do the right thing by not competing. I never had any intention of running the car in eliminations with the wrong carb. Assertions to the contrary are incorrect. I should have realized that qualifying the car would screw with the program. I should have told the NHRA to take me out of the qualifying ladder because I was illegal, not to mention that it was the end of the season and there was more important stuff on the line than my stupid test and tune fiasco. I was dumb. I meant no disrespect to Stock Eliminator. I am an ambassador of our sport. I dream about it. I don't consider it to be "glorified bracket racing" I consider it to be the hardest class in drag racing. I am honored to participate. Please accept my sincere apologies and the promise that I will try not to be such a bone head in the future.

Now in my defense, ask most people who know me, I am not an idiot or an asshole. Don't ask the other people. I'm the guy who would give you the shirt off his back. With the help of friends, fellow racers, and my family I have been able to put together a couple of Stock Eliminator cars from scratch. It took years because I didn't fall into this, I clawed my way in. I savor every moment that I am at the track or working on the cars. I feel like the Stock Eliminator community is a miniscule sliver of society that is my family. We are the only ones who really know.

Keep up the good work.

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock# 6621

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Don't sweat it Chris. Perfect response in my book.

Lesson learned. Move forward. Bracket racers have a different mentality.

I, for one, understand. But, I also had a bunch of Stock and Super Stock buddies that would have never let me make a pass with a different carb.

Good luck!

Jeff

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Chris--You on your own manned up and did what was right here. Thank you for exhibiting the right attitude here. Let's all, in the Stock Eliminator family, remember this,lest we also be tempted. Test and Tune is where we can experiment without causing any grief, let's all remember to tinker there. As for the Div.7 racer that found Jesus, I'm glad for him,but we all have a long way to go . Thanks for your response.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Chris,
Thank's for the response.
I for one know you and do not think for a minute you meant to harm any other racer by trying to figure out a new racecar that was not working they way it should have after all the hard work that it takes to build one. I would not have the interest in stock that I have if not for your enthusiasm about it. Hopefully this is a good lesson for a of our fellow racer's.
The wrong time and place for a test session? Yes. But how many of us haven't or wouldn't test something after a 300 mile drive and a disapointing first pass in new car?.
Putting the car in the trailer and going home without competing was the right thing to do at that point.
The interesting thing is that another racer was caught racing with a big carb this year and not a word was said about it here.

Toby,
Chris has given you the shirt off his back and this is how you repay him? I smell the stink of Sean Kennedy on you.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Phil,I usually agree with your posts,but don't try to crucify Toby on this one.Your west coast friend was 100% wrong and there was no justification for using that carb in qualifying.The
article said one of his crew persons is a tech inspector.Duhhhhhh.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Thank you for the response.I guess no west coasters care to comment on my question.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

Toby, if you are reading this, please just know that we are on your side. Your points are well taken. I look forward to the next time I see you because you are my friend. Good luck this weekend!

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

325 383 CDP 10.00 1-4 Cart AFB-4130S, 4132S/SM 301,666,968 1.5 H 73.5 D,2
Carb sizes – # 4130,4131 – 1437x1563/1186x1313
Carb sizes – # 4132,4133 – 1437x1563/1063x1563
350 440 C 10.10 1-4 Cart AFB-4137S, 4131S/AUTO ONLY 1.5 H 73.5 D
Carb sizes – # 4131 – 1437x1563/1186x1313
Carb sizes – # 4137 – 1437x1563/1063x1563
350 440 D 10.00 1-4 Cart AFB-4130S/SM, 4131S/AUTO 1.5 H 73.5 D,8
Carb sizes – # 4130,4131 – 1437x1563/1186x1313
Carb sizes – # 4136,4137 – 1437x1563/1063x1563
365 440 C 10.10 1-4 Cart AFB-4137S, 4131S/AUTO ONLY 1.5 H 73.5 D
Carb sizes – # 4131 – 1437x1563/1186x1313
Carb sizes – # 4137 – 1437x1563/1063x1563
365 440 P 10.10 1-4 Cart AFB-4130S/SM, 4131S/AUTO 1.5 H 73.5 D,11

Are you sure you have the right carb for a '66 Plymouth 383 / 325 engine?
FYI - AFB 4130s is for an automatic transmission and 4132s/SM is for a "stick manual" transmission. Be careful, often times the "SM" carbs are smaller CFM for better in-town driving; especially on a larger car like yours. Don't you have an automatic trans?
If the AFB you borrowed was for a 1966 440 (maybe it wasn't), then it shares the same specs as your 383 AFB.

Re: What Do You Think About This?
 

The article states he borrowed a 73 Carter 750 AVS. It has an Air Valve Controlled Secondaries and has the large 1 11/16 primary and secondary throttle blades.